Political Crossfire Forums

Tookie Williams · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 117

because when the larger states (california, texas, florida) pass a law, smaller surrounding states follow suit. (that is historically proven time and time again) and yes, that is a slippery slope again

Now you try to argue your point without saying gay doesn't affect people, since you want to take away my viable arguements.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Tookie Williams wrote: because when the larger states (california, texas, florida) pass a law, smaller surrounding states follow suit. (that is historically proven time and time again) and yes, that is a slippery slope again

Now you try to argue your point without saying gay doesn't affect people, since you want to take away my viable arguements.

Very well, I will.

Homosexuality does not have a detrimental effect on the population for several reasons. Among them:

1) The activities of adults are of no concern to others as long as they are not harming people in the process. Me being with my boyfriend, publicly or privately, does not cause a harm to others. Some may profess a moral outrage, but that is not harm. It is merely righteous indignation.

2) The US Supreme Court established in Hale v. Henkel (1906) that American adults have an unlimited right to contract. The opinion of the court was "The individual may stand upon his Constitutional Rights as a CITIZEN. He is entitled to carry on his private business in his own way. His power to contract is unlimited. He owes no duty to the State or to his neighbors to divulge his business, or to open his doors to an investigation, so far as it may tend to incriminate him. He owes no duty to the State, since he receives nothing therefrom, beyond the protection of his life and property. His rights are such as existed by the Law of the Land (Common Law) long antecedent to the organization of the State, and can only be taken from him by due process of law, and in accordance with the Constitution. He owes nothing to the public so long as he does not trespass upon their rights."

Basically speaking, the court established that, so long as I am not infringing upon your rights, I have the right to do as I please and contract with whom I please. Legally speaking, marriage is a contract. It provides for protections from the state, which Hale v Henkel outlined as appropriate in contractual obligations for the protection of life and property. Therefore, to be simple about it, marriage is a contract with which any two adults are allowed to enter in to as it does not harm the life or property of others.

3) Finally, the "slippery slope" argument. That line of argumentation and persuasion is fallacious as it assumes connections where none are shown to exist. "If A happens, then B, C, and D will happen." If we allow gay marriage, we will allow polygamy, incest, and beastiality. Beings that there is not one piece of evidence to show a connection between A (gay marriage) and B (legalization of polygamy), we can be sure that the connections that follow (C and D) are nothing more than conjecture. Conjecture is not enough to deny a citizenry the protection and rights of the state.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Weed, hippies, gays, and draft dodgers did not hurt canada and won't that is what the republicans on the far right beleive.

Abortion is not an issue either

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

Tookie Williams wrote: I agree - every gay, potsmoking, draft dodging hippie and those with no morals SHOULD move to Canada

It amazes me how many 'interesting' people there are left in the 21st Century America

:lol:

Tookie Williams: Please tell us what is moral? Since you have a handle on what ISN'T moral, maybe you can elighten us on what is.
Stealing?
Speeding?
Telling lies?
Sex?
Gossip?
Having your spouse do the dishes instead of you?
Praying before a meal?
Eating first before the person who prepared the meal?
Beating your spouse?
Verbally abusing someone?
Smoking?

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5506 Location: Taxatraz

Tookie Williams wrote: I agree - every gay, potsmoking, draft dodging hippie and those with no morals SHOULD move to Canada
Everyone has morals; you just might not like them. Morality is subjective and your opinion certainly is as well.

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5506 Location: Taxatraz

Tookie Williams wrote: but liberal on a huge dividing issue

Homos
abortions
religion

are teh big three for me
Why should what people do in the privacy of their own property be of any concern to you so long as they are not violating the rights of others? The only issue above you have a legitimate claim to is abortion, not on religious grounds, but because it is murder.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Abortion should also be up to the individual. Do you think if someone is raped or otherwise they should "not' be allowed this service?

Abortion moral or not should be up to the individual. That is really what it all comes down to your freedom and everyone should know you give them an inch and they take a mile.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Beings that there are not a lot of gay men and lesbians having abortions, let's keep that issue to the abortion forum.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

But aren't the issues really all in the same since each involve the same basic princables and that's the freedom to choose and anyone who says otherwise is purely ignorant.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Canadian_Patriot wrote: But aren't the issues really all in the same since each involve the same basic princables and that's the freedom to choose and anyone who says otherwise is purely ignorant. What a way to qualify that statement with an ad hominum attack on those who disagree.

While I don't disagree, I am pointing out that this is the Gay & Lesbian forum, not the Abortion forum. Let's keep posts in the correct forums.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Urielsfyre don't be so anal. I never brought up abortion and no one else is complaining nor have i been notified by an admin that my post is moved.

8:)

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Canadian_Patriot wrote: Urielsfyre don't be so anal. I never brought up abortion and no one else is complaining nor have i been notified by an admin that my post is moved.

8:)

Just pointing out that the abortion debate and the gay rights debate are two different things, each with their own forum for discussion.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Just pointing out that the abortion debate and the gay rights debate are two different things, each with their own forum for discussion.

Okay "Mom" I got it the first time yeesh

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Canadian_Patriot wrote: Just pointing out that the abortion debate and the gay rights debate are two different things, each with their own forum for discussion.

Okay "Mom" I got it the first time yeesh

:roll:

Jaxian · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 11:57 am Post subject:

Canadian_Patriot wrote: But aren't the issues really all in the same since each involve the same basic princables and that's the freedom to choose and anyone who says otherwise is purely ignorant.

At the risk of mentioning abortion again, I have to say that I do not think abortion and gay rights are remotely the same issue, nor do I think it is appropriate to simply lump all of the "freedom to choose" issues into the same basket.

If we can call these two issues "the same", then why can't we call other freedom to choose issues the same? How about the freedom to choose to murder? Surely that's the same, yes?

In the debate over gay rights, we are trying to figure out whether same-sex marriage harms anyone. The arguments supporting this harm may be something like "I'll have to protect my children from becoming homosexuals."

In the debate over abortion, we are trying to figure out whether abortion harms anyone. The arguments supporting this harm may be something like, "We are killing unborn children."

So we're really talking about two completely different things here. The first is: what is the effect of legalizing same-sex marriage? The second is: should we really punish people for having an abortion? We simply can't lump these two issues into the same category any more than we could lump murder into the same category.

The reason I bring this up is because I believe it is very simple to see that same-sex marriage isn't hurting anyone. The arguments that same-sex marriage is harmful are complete absurdities and stretches of the truth. For example, the same as an opponent of same-sex marriage might say it causes him to have to "protect his children", I could say that his opposition to homosexuality causes me to have to "protect my children." Simply because our beliefs are intolerant does not justify us in stripping each other's freedom.

On the other hand, abortion seems to me a more complex issue and one where it's very difficult to say "This is absolutely the starting point of personhood where parents are no longer allowed to let this creature die."

I don't want people confusing an easy decision with a hard one.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

Abortion,Drug use,Gay rights etc. should be up to the individual not the state based on personal beleifs. Murder on the other hand is killing a "Conscious" thinking and fully functioning human being though i do support assisted suicide.

As for a fetus it doesn't even have a fully developed brain nor can it function on it's own it doesn't think feel etc. before a certain point. It is up to the adult that is pregnant in question bottom line.

you should be allowed to do whatever you please as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

Tookie Williams · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 117

Canadian_Patriot wrote: Abortion,Drug use,Gay rights etc. should be up to the individual not the state based on personal beleifs. Murder on the other hand is killing a "Conscious" thinking and fully functioning human being though i do support assisted suicide.

As for a fetus it doesn't even have a fully developed brain nor can it function on it's own it doesn't think feel etc. before a certain point. It is up to the adult that is pregnant in question bottom line.

you should be allowed to do whatever you please as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.

and do it in Canada

Jaxian · Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject:

Tookie Williams wrote: and do it in Canada

Or you could move to Iran, if you liked. Few religiously "immoral" acts are allowed there, and America is supposed to be the land of the free, after all.

Tookie Williams · Joined: 14 Mar 2006 Posts: 117

nah, it's easier for me for everybody else to leave

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9374

Tookie Williams wrote: nah, it's easier for me for everybody else to leave

Well, there would go the state of Florida's economy then. Florida's economy is based on tourism, especially Disney. And I know, from working there, that about half of the men working at WDW are gay.

So, you can stay...but, your state will collapse. :lol: