Political Crossfire Forums

[Ssushi]

I saw on the TV recently that there's an anomaly in the way the UK Parliament is working, with regard to devolution of power to Nth Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

It seems that the British Parliament has Nth Ireland, Welsh and Scottish MP's, who are making decisions about issues not affecting their own constituencies. This doesn't seem right to me at all. Especially when our PM is likely to hand over to a Scot to run the country.

It would appear that the devolution of government should either have not happened, or happened fully, with the removal of non-English MP's from English Parliament.

This is known as the West Lothian question.
http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/notes/snpc-02586.pdf

"During the debate on devolution to Scotland and Wales on 14 November 1977, Mr Dalyell
said:
For how long will English constituencies and English Honourable members
tolerate…at least 119 Honourable Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on British politics while they themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland."

It would seem to me that complete devolution in itself has downsides; I think we'd have less QMV in the EU for instance.

Any thoughts?

[Lord Hargreaves]

Well the issue of an English Parliament is more difficult than Welsh and Scottish devolution, since I sense the English tend to feel more Unionist and "British" rather than English, plus the English will have to pay for the huge parliament building and running costs, unlike the Welsh and Scots who got to have their devolved bodies paid for them.#

Overall I'd have nothing against an English Parliament, although at the moment I think banning Scottish/NI MPs from voting on issues that only concern England would be a more dogmatic solution.

[Ssushi]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Well the issue of an English Parliament is more difficult than Welsh and Scottish devolution, since I sense the English tend to feel more Unionist and "British" rather than English, plus the English will have to pay for the huge parliament building and running costs, unlike the Welsh and Scots who got to have their devolved bodies paid for them.#

Overall I'd have nothing against an English Parliament, although at the moment I think banning Scottish/NI MPs from voting on issues that only concern England would be a more dogmatic solution.

Currently I agree, they should not be allowed to vote on English issues. I'd like the Union to remain, only so that Britain retains a good QMV. Other than I that, I don't really consider myself British, but English.

[thundertaker]

And yet that arrogant, scotch cnut Lord Falconer, refuses to even ban non-english MPs from voting on English-only matters on the grounds that 'it would lead to the break up of the Union'. Yet he supported devolution on the grounds that having policies 'imposed' on Scotland and Wales was causing resentment against the Union, and was therefore neccessary.
We really are being run by a scotch mafia that seems to take delight in treating Englishmen like second-class British citizens who don't deserve the same level of democracy as our celtic compatriots.....

[Lord Hargreaves]

Well I could hazard a guess as to why the English are being denied a parliament, and it would have nothing to do with the fact that the majority of English voted Tory in last election, obviously.........

[Ssushi]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Well I could hazard a guess as to why the English are being denied a parliament, and it would have nothing to do with the fact that the majority of English voted Tory in last election, obviously.........

LHG, this issue has been going on since the '70s. It's more to do with the monachy not wanting to break the union, yet giving something to apease the Scots and Welsh...

[Jajo]

The main problem is that people can never be quite sure what is only affecting the English, English and Welsh law are one and the same and therefore Welsh MPs could not be banned because all most every Bill has a part that affects both England and Wales. So you would all ways have to have English and Welsh MP voting.

But the main problem is that of Scotland where the MPs appear to be voting on issues that do not affect them, be even here it is very hard to discern if a Bill will affect Scotland or not. You can look to the Education Bill where the government could not give an assurance that its funding implications would not indirectly affect Scotland therefore they would have the right to vote as the bill would affect them. So while I am all for the solving the West Lothian Question I can not really see a way to do this because it is not easy select certain areas to put in an Act that say the Scots are not allowed to vote on these issues because as I have show even education bills have been known to indirectly affect the Scots, even though they have a totaly independant education system.

BTW I am English not Scottish in case you are wondering :P

[Sawney]

It seems to me that a lot of people south of the Scottish border are engaging that oft-heard activity of “having your cake and eating it”.

Yes, I do think the English are getting a taste of what was put round for so long, and I’m really afraid I have extremely little sympathy and/or patience with them. It is only them, at the end of the day, who have the deciding votes if they want to cast New Labour out (which they have always had, mind). They are the ones who really have the power (due to their vaster numbers) in the UK. So these "poor oppressed English" arguments are quite ludicrous. :lol:

So why should I really care then? Exactly the same arguments are being employed there as were employed in Scotland pre-1997 - except in Scotland we did have a dreadfully unrepresentative government imposed upon us, and yes by England. The “Union” has never been perfect, democratic or representative - it hasn’t just become that way because England is feeling those disadvantages currently.

The Poll Tax is an example there are far too many to list - a better one is the Education Act (Scotland) 1996. At the time the vast majority of Scottish teachers were absolutely against this piece of legislation, as were most Scottish MP’s. However it was passed on the back of English Tory MP’s with no understanding of Scottish education or anything else. Time and time again that went on. The vast voting block that the English had was always the major problem.

Also some more home truths whilst we are at it. The current devolution settlement was debated upon, amended and voted on by parliamentarians of mostly (yes, mostly) English extraction. The people of England voted in the New Labour governments in 1997, 2001 and yes, even in 2005 (New Labour had a majority of 44 seats in England alone after the 2005 election) knowing exactly what the constitutional setup in the "Dis-United Kingdom" was.

That all sounds extremely unpleasant, but unfortunately it is the raw truth. And it is so amazing how that is just conveniently “forgotten” or “glossed over” by many English people today, when they make whining noises about all the Scots who are in Westminster currently.

And yes I believe full fiscal federalism must now be the only option followed by the inevitable dissolution of the UK, which I think is the only option, at the end of all this nonsense. :)

What does anyone else here think?