Political Crossfire Forums

sliceanddice · Joined: 13 Mar 2006 Posts: 5

I AM NOT NAZI, I was writting an article about some of thier beliefs that are ironic. (EX a black person hating black people) but then I realized I didn't know all the facts. What was hitlers plan? Did you have to have certain physical features? Or was it nationality? Please inform me so I know what I am actually talking about when I "b**** and moan".

Thanks.....

I know this is sorta akward but.....

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10198

sliceanddice wrote: I AM NOT NAZI, I was writting an article about some of thier beliefs that are ironic. (EX a black person hating black people) but then I realized I didn't know all the facts. What was hitlers plan? Did you have to have certain physical features? Or was it nationality? Please inform me so I know what I am actually talking about when I "b**** and moan".

Thanks.....

I know this is sorta akward but.....

I'm not quite sure how to answer. There's a lot of hyped up bullcrap written about Hitler and the Nazi's. Some of it's true, some of it's more than true, some of the bs...is so thick people tend to forget the Nazi's were very christian and nationalistic. They believe they were fighting Communisim....etc. That's why initially they had so many allies, and admirers.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

They were socialist and atheistic, if not involved in occultism, as a good number of their activities suggest. Here are some comments that Hilter made concerning Christianity.

Quote: Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea.

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease.

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics.

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ."

These quotes are from a book called "Hitler's Table Talk" 1941-1944 from the Oxford University Press.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1929631057/103-6898595-6410263?v=glance&n=283155

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

hitler claimed to be a christian, but he had distorted view of it(fascinated by the occult)....

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

Random Evil Guy wrote: hitler claimed to be a christian, but he had distorted view of it(fascinated by the occult)....

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," - Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," - Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: hitler claimed to be a christian, but he had distorted view of it(fascinated by the occult)....

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

"Christianity is an invention of sick brains," - Adolf Hitler, 13 December 1941.

"So it's not opportune to hurl ourselves now into a struggle with the Churches. The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death," - Adolf Hitler, 14 October 1941.

hitler:

Quote: “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”

Quote: “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

Quote: “May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose, and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting not for ourselves but for Germany.”

your point being...? :roll:

i think only hitler himself knew whether he was a christian or not, but there is no denying nazi germany was infested with christian theology and symbolism.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 12:44 pm Post subject:

Ah, the ole "Hitler was a Christian" "No he wasn't" debate. Frankly I think quoting Hitler doesn't prove anything on either side because, and I'm not sure if you guys remember this, but Hitler wasn't exactly renouned for his truth telling abilities. Does the phrase "I will not invade Poland" or "I will not start a war with the Soviet Union" ring a bell?

Hitler was a politician, and a shrewd one at that. When courting the Socialists to join his Fascist policies, he renounced religion. When courting the Christians, especially the Catholics, or when dealing with Italy, he was a devout Christian. You can find quotes for an against both sides because Hitler was playing both sides, it's that simple.

I personally think it matters little. Hitler's religious beliefs I can only conclude are left ambigious, so I don't really care. If he was a Christian, then I share something in common with Hitler. Ok, fine. I also wear pants and have hair on the top of my head, so that's two more things I share in common with Hitler. Hitler wasn't a dick because he prayed to Jesus or because he wore pants, though. He was a dick because he was a tyrannical expansionist that institutionalized racism and attempted to take over the world. That's something that Christianity (or any religion, really) does NOT have in common with Hitler, so I think the discussion is moot.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

Todd D. wrote: Ah, the ole "Hitler was a Christian" "No he wasn't" debate. Frankly I think quoting Hitler doesn't prove anything on either side because, and I'm not sure if you guys remember this, but Hitler wasn't exactly renouned for his truth telling abilities. Does the phrase "I will not invade Poland" or "I will not start a war with the Soviet Union" ring a bell?

Hitler was a politician, and a shrewd one at that. When courting the Socialists to join his Fascist policies, he renounced religion. When courting the Christians, especially the Catholics, or when dealing with Italy, he was a devout Christian. You can find quotes for an against both sides because Hitler was playing both sides, it's that simple.

I personally think it matters little. Hitler's religious beliefs I can only conclude are left ambigious, so I don't really care. If he was a Christian, then I share something in common with Hitler. Ok, fine. I also wear pants and have hair on the top of my head, so that's two more things I share in common with Hitler. Hitler wasn't a dick because he prayed to Jesus or because he wore pants, though. He was a dick because he was a tyrannical expansionist that institutionalized racism and attempted to take over the world. That's something that Christianity (or any religion, really) does NOT have in common with Hitler, so I think the discussion is moot.

Well said Todd. I think that Christians want to distance themselves from Hitler as to not be seen as a religion that could influence someone like Hitler (however mistaken Hitler was with Christian ideals). Others want to paint him as a Christian in order to point to him as an example that "Christians aren't as good as they would like you to believe."

The end result is that it matters not what he believed. Beliefs are not the point, actions are.

adrenalinejunkie · Joined: 28 Sep 2004 Posts: 398 Location: Plains, Kansas

Todd D. wrote: Ah, the ole "Hitler was a Christian" "No he wasn't" debate. Frankly I think quoting Hitler doesn't prove anything on either side because, and I'm not sure if you guys remember this, but Hitler wasn't exactly renouned for his truth telling abilities. Does the phrase "I will not invade Poland" or "I will not start a war with the Soviet Union" ring a bell?

Hitler was a politician, and a shrewd one at that. When courting the Socialists to join his Fascist policies, he renounced religion. When courting the Christians, especially the Catholics, or when dealing with Italy, he was a devout Christian. You can find quotes for an against both sides because Hitler was playing both sides, it's that simple.

I personally think it matters little. Hitler's religious beliefs I can only conclude are left ambigious, so I don't really care. If he was a Christian, then I share something in common with Hitler. Ok, fine. I also wear pants and have hair on the top of my head, so that's two more things I share in common with Hitler. Hitler wasn't a dick because he prayed to Jesus or because he wore pants, though. He was a dick because he was a tyrannical expansionist that institutionalized racism and attempted to take over the world. That's something that Christianity (or any religion, really) does NOT have in common with Hitler, so I think the discussion is moot.

Great post.

BastionOfSanity · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject:

DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC OF FASCISM #8
Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
to the government's policies or actions.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Todd D. wrote: Ah, the ole "Hitler was a Christian" "No he wasn't" debate. Frankly I think quoting Hitler doesn't prove anything on either side because, and I'm not sure if you guys remember this, but Hitler wasn't exactly renouned for his truth telling abilities. Does the phrase "I will not invade Poland" or "I will not start a war with the Soviet Union" ring a bell?

Hitler was a politician, and a shrewd one at that. When courting the Socialists to join his Fascist policies, he renounced religion. When courting the Christians, especially the Catholics, or when dealing with Italy, he was a devout Christian. You can find quotes for an against both sides because Hitler was playing both sides, it's that simple.

I personally think it matters little. Hitler's religious beliefs I can only conclude are left ambigious, so I don't really care. If he was a Christian, then I share something in common with Hitler. Ok, fine. I also wear pants and have hair on the top of my head, so that's two more things I share in common with Hitler. Hitler wasn't a dick because he prayed to Jesus or because he wore pants, though. He was a dick because he was a tyrannical expansionist that institutionalized racism and attempted to take over the world. That's something that Christianity (or any religion, really) does NOT have in common with Hitler, so I think the discussion is moot.

I imagine you think the point is moot probably because you don't want to have to answer the question of why he wasn't excommunicated.

I think a lot of responsibility for Hitler can be laid at the door of churches, Catholic and Protestant, that stood by and did nothing during this period of History. You can see this attitude is prevalent in the various denominations to this day. It nothing less than complete apathy.
Quote: Revelation 3:14 "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 'Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 'He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.' " More fulfilled prophecy.

I blame amillennialism and other bad doctrine for this chain of events. Any real church would have refused to tolerate someone like Hitler. And many did, they died for their trouble.

One thing for sure is Hitler wasn't a follower of Christ, any other slave can see this. Whether this makes him a "Christian" or not is debatable. "Christians" can't even seem to be able to see who is a follower of Christ and who is obviously not these days. What kind of works are those that totally ignore obvious evil?

I'm not even sure that the designation "Christian" really means anything.

So it's less a question of whether Hitler was a follower of Christ and more of one whether many of the people who call themselves "Christian" are really followers of Christ.

I don't think Y'shua would have just sat there while Hitler slaughtered millions. And I don't think He would approve of us now either.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

Todd D. wrote: Ah, the ole "Hitler was a Christian" "No he wasn't" debate. Frankly I think quoting Hitler doesn't prove anything on either side because, and I'm not sure if you guys remember this, but Hitler wasn't exactly renouned for his truth telling abilities. Does the phrase "I will not invade Poland" or "I will not start a war with the Soviet Union" ring a bell?

Hitler was a politician, and a shrewd one at that. When courting the Socialists to join his Fascist policies, he renounced religion. When courting the Christians, especially the Catholics, or when dealing with Italy, he was a devout Christian. You can find quotes for an against both sides because Hitler was playing both sides, it's that simple.

I personally think it matters little. Hitler's religious beliefs I can only conclude are left ambigious, so I don't really care. If he was a Christian, then I share something in common with Hitler. Ok, fine. I also wear pants and have hair on the top of my head, so that's two more things I share in common with Hitler. Hitler wasn't a dick because he prayed to Jesus or because he wore pants, though. He was a dick because he was a tyrannical expansionist that institutionalized racism and attempted to take over the world. That's something that Christianity (or any religion, really) does NOT have in common with Hitler, so I think the discussion is moot.

it doesn't matter one way or the other. trying to portray atheists or christians as evil by refering to hitler is a classic ad hominem.

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject:

Quote: I imagine you think the point is moot probably because you don't want to have to answer the question of why he wasn't excommunicated.
Not really. He lied and played political games. He duped the Church the same way he duped England, Fance, Poland, and Russia. I've explained why I think the question is moot.

Quote: I think a lot of responsibility for Hitler can be laid at the door of churches, Catholic and Protestant, that stood by and did nothing during this period of History.
It's a myth that Churchs "stood by and did nothing". Could they have done more? Debateable, but I think it's unfair not to recognized the lives saved by the Vatican's amnesty as well as the policies of other Churches, both Catholic and Protestant, during the time in question.

Quote: I blame amillennialism and other bad doctrine for this chain of events. Any real church would have refused to tolerate someone like Hitler. And many did, they died for their trouble.
Oh yeah, I can totally see how the belief that Revelation is metaphorical and that Jesus reigns on Earth today caused the Holocaust...... Please.

Anyway, the Vatican was smack in the middle of Italy, under Fascist and Nazi control. Do what I think you are suggesting, and not only do you not help the people getting slaughtered, you put millions more directly in danger. For someone that is supposed to be a shephard and specifically comissioned by the Lord to "Tend my lambs", that's a very hard thing to justify under the Just War doctrine.

Besides, how did the Church "tolerate" Hitler? Anyone who has ever bothered to do research knows that Pius XII was extremely untrusting of Hitler both before and during his Papacy, and was one of the first religious leaders to explicitly speak out AGAINST Anti-Semitism and Nazism in Europe at the time. It's revisionist history that pretends that the Vatican was this complacent fence-sitter during World War II.

Random Evil Guy wrote: it doesn't matter one way or the other. trying to portray atheists or christians as evil by refering to hitler is a classic ad hominem.
Precisely.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: It's revisionist history that pretends that the Vatican was this complacent fence-sitter during World War II.

It's revisionist history that pretends the "church" doesn't have plenty of guilt in this matter.

They did practically nothing. The pulpits were silent except for rare individuals who stood up.

Same as it is now.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: It's revisionist history that pretends that the Vatican was this complacent fence-sitter during World War II.

It's revisionist history that pretends the "church" doesn't have plenty of guilt in this matter.

They did practically nothing. The pulpits were silent except for rare individuals who stood up.

Same as it is now.

And how is "the church" supposed to be responsible for the actions of a lunatic?

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject:

Quote: They did practically nothing. The pulpits were silent except for rare individuals who stood up.
Except of course for Pius XII's two Christmas addresse, or his letter to Pius XI before he became Pope where he referred to Hitler as both "wicked" and that he would regret any agreement he made with him.

But hey, don't believe me on the matter, what did the Jews have to say on it?
"No keener rebuke has come to Nazism than from Pope Pius XI and his successor, Pope Pius XII." - Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, chancellor, Jewish Theological Seminary of America in the New York Times, March, 1940.

"Only the Catholic Church protested against the Hitlerian onslaught on liberty. Up till then I had not been interested in the Church, but today I feel a great admiration for the Church, which alone has had the courage to struggle for spiritual truth and moral liberty." - Albert Einstein, 1946.

"In relation to the insane behavior of the Nazis, from overlords to self-styled cogs like Eichmann, he [Pius XII] did everything humanly possible to save lives and alleviate suffering among the Jews; that a formal statement would have provoked the Nazis to brutal retaliation, and would substantially have thwarted further Catholic action on behalf of Jews." - Dr. Joseph Lichten, Jewish Anti-Defamation League, 1963

Like I said, revisionist history that Pius XII (or most Christian leaders at the time, really) was complacent in the Holocaust.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: And how is "the church" supposed to be responsible for the actions of a lunatic?
They should have spoken out. They did nothing of consequence.

Had Hitler been excommunicated, things would have been different. Had every pastor, priest, and church member refused to tolerate this, things would have been different.

As it were this entire nation slid into lunacy. The "church" stood there and did nothing of consequence. So the people who are saying that the Hitler was a "christian" have a pretty good point.

Hitler did not murder millions of human being all by himself. Everyone who stood there and watched will be asked why they did this.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Except of course for Pius XII's two Christmas addresse, or his letter to Pius XI before he became Pope where he referred to Hitler as both "wicked" and that he would regret any agreement he made with him.

If he was so wicked, why didn't the Pope excommunicate him instead of writing a couple of letters to deflect criticism for the agreements made with him?

That's ineffectual at best, complicit at worse.

Todd D. · Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject:

Quote: They should have spoken out. The did nothing of consequence.
The 860,000 Jews that the Vatican saved probably disagree with you quite strongly on this.

Quote: Had Hitler been excommunicated, things would have been different. Had every pastor, priest, and church member refused to tolerate this, things would have been different.
Speculation, not to mention pretty baseless speculation considering the power that the Nazis had at the time. You really think that had Hitler been excommunicated, it would have done something other than put the millions of Catholics in Nazi regions in harm's way?

Quote: The "church" stood there and did nothing of consequence.
Again, the 860,000 lives saved almost assuredly disagree with you.

Quote: Hitler did not murder millions of human being all by himself. Everyone who stood there and watched will be asked why they did this.
I agree, but to indict Pius XII in that list is downight dishonest history.

EDIT: It should also be noted that Hitler actually WAS excommunicated in 1942 under the doctrine of Latæ Sententiæ, or Automatic Excommunication. By declaring the practices of the Nazis to be Heretical and Schismatic, he automatically excommunicated anyone that held to those practices. At the time, that was obvious to anyone listening, including Hitler, who made referece to such event.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Todd, was Hitler excommunicated or not?