Political Crossfire Forums

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

"Faith is the conviction of things not scene, and the hope for things to come."
The aforementioned is a quote from the Bible.

The point?

Theism relies purely on Faith, and there are few substantial things for us to have that would strengthen our faith. Their will be no substantial proof God exists outside of our faith, because wide-spread proof denies belief, and our belief would turn from Godly faith to the convictions of the common-place.

Atheism, is the disregard for theism, the pre-fix "a" literally meaning without. The fact that atheism is a stance against theism creates it as an opposing force to it. Atheism, however, is also a belief. If it was proven there was no God, then why bother having faith in a cause already proven. There is no direct proof God does not exist, and none that he does exist. There is only faith.

There will be signs for science, as for religion, I'll grant you. Chemical evolution, the Shroud of Torin, etc. But neither directly confronts the issue of Gods existence. The Big Bang, for example, could easily be the method of creation God indulged in. The Shroud of Torin can be replicated by placing a cloth under colored glass and left in the sun for days. Nothing is proof for or against. Both atheism and theism are faiths.

Discuss?

thebreadloaf2003 · Joined: 23 Oct 2005 Posts: 213 Location: Texas

Addison wrote: "Faith is the conviction of things not scene, and the hope for things to come."
The aforementioned is a quote from the Bible.

The point?

Theism relies purely on Faith, and there are few substantial things for us to have that would strengthen our faith. Their will be no substantial proof God exists outside of our faith, because wide-spread proof denies belief, and our belief would turn from Godly faith to the convictions of the common-place.

Atheism, is the disregard for theism, the pre-fix "a" literally meaning without. The fact that atheism is a stance against theism creates it as an opposing force to it. Atheism, however, is also a belief. If it was proven there was no God, then why bother having faith in a cause already proven. There is no direct proof God does not exist, and none that he does exist. There is only faith.

your definition and breakdown of atheism does not match you view of what atheism is. atheism is not a stance against religion (although most atheists are including my self to a certain extent) it is a life without the belief of a higher power. from your breakdown it is simply a stance of life "without" theism i.e. religion

Quote: There will be signs for science, as for religion, I'll grant you. Chemical evolution, the Shroud of Torin, etc. But neither directly confronts the issue of Gods existence. The Big Bang, for example, could easily be the method of creation God indulged in. The Shroud of Torin can be replicated by placing a cloth under colored glass and left in the sun for days. Nothing is proof for or against. Both atheism and theism are faiths.

Discuss?

that is true, depending of the way you percieve how everything happens. I'm sure if you tried, you could think of some way that "god" intervenes and has a part in anything and everything...if you realy tried. On the other hand however, anything and everything can be logically explained, the only boundry in this is the mental experience or ability to take the sure solid facts of the incident being explained, and effectivley conjure a logical and moderatly plausable explination

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2044 Location: Somewhere

Addison wrote: "Faith is the conviction of things not scene, and the hope for things to come."
The aforementioned is a quote from the Bible.

The point?

Theism relies purely on Faith, and there are few substantial things for us to have that would strengthen our faith. Their will be no substantial proof God exists outside of our faith, because wide-spread proof denies belief, and our belief would turn from Godly faith to the convictions of the common-place.

The words atheist and theist are nothing more than words used to categorise ones position regarding the existence or non-existence of god/s. The words denote nothing about the nature of that belief. Hindu's, Muslim's, Christians, Jews, Satanists etc are all theists, do you think they all have the same beliefs? Of course not and that's the problem with using broad words such as atheist and theist, the meat of the issue is not what they believe but why.

Addison wrote: Atheism, is the disregard for theism, the pre-fix "a" literally meaning without. The fact that atheism is a stance against theism creates it as an opposing force to it. Atheism, however, is also a belief. If it was proven there was no God, then why bother having faith in a cause already proven. There is no direct proof God does not exist, and none that he does exist. There is only faith.

Atheists do not believe that the existence of god/s has been disproved; they believe the existence of god/s is unproven. How they come to that conclusion varies, just as it does with theists, but the end result is the same.

Addison wrote: There will be signs for science, as for religion, I'll grant you. Chemical evolution, the Shroud of Torin, etc. But neither directly confronts the issue of Gods existence. The Big Bang, for example, could easily be the method of creation God indulged in. The Shroud of Torin can be replicated by placing a cloth under colored glass and left in the sun for days. Nothing is proof for or against. Both atheism and theism are faiths.

Discuss?

Which type of atheism are you referring to? Some (but not all) Buddhists are atheists. Indeed you yourself Addison are an atheist when it comes to Greek and Roman gods. Do you believe your atheism towards these gods is based on faith or evidence?

Cheers, Eternal

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Since it can technically be neither proven nor disproven, atheism is categorized as a "belief" as opposed to a "fact." If it were a fact, there would be no stance for or against it, as it is inarguable. Don't confuse "faith" with "belief." I didn't suggest atheism is a religion, but it can't be a fact.

globalsmiles · Joined: 13 Dec 2005 Posts: 243 Location: Missouri

Addison wrote: Since it can technically be neither proven nor disproven, atheism is categorized as a "belief" as opposed to a "fact." If it were a fact, there would be no stance for or against it, as it is inarguable. Don't confuse "faith" with "belief." I didn't suggest atheism is a religion, but it can't be a fact.

This is technically true. Its a hard argument because it doesn't address the real issues, it just debunks atheism as something higher then theism.

As far as I know Athists can't explain much of anything. Science still doesn't go that far, we are still ignorant children of the universe. Explain the duality of light, the nature of the big bang. Gavity's effects on quantum mechanics. I could go on and on and on.

Belief in a higher power is a natural response.

thebreadloaf2003 · Joined: 23 Oct 2005 Posts: 213 Location: Texas

globalsmiles wrote: Addison wrote: Since it can technically be neither proven nor disproven, atheism is categorized as a "belief" as opposed to a "fact." If it were a fact, there would be no stance for or against it, as it is inarguable. Don't confuse "faith" with "belief." I didn't suggest atheism is a religion, but it can't be a fact.

This is technically true. Its a hard argument because it doesn't address the real issues, it just debunks atheism as something higher then theism.

As far as I know Athists can't explain much of anything. Science still doesn't go that far, we are still ignorant children of the universe. Explain the duality of light, the nature of the big bang. Gavity's effects on quantum mechanics. I could go on and on and on.

Belief in a higher power is a natural response.

atheists can actually prove a lot, maybe not to you or anyone else, but to them selves, which is what its all about. having confidence that what you think will benefit you as a person. whe an atheist tries to publicly prove somthing right or wrong, its to share their ideas with others and defend them.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 11 Feb 2005 Posts: 8246

What is truth?

Truth in and of itself is a fallacy. Humanity's perception of "truth" what the collective body believes to be true. Regardless of how much proof there is to the law of gravity, it is still based on math, which is based on numbers, which are human inventions, and since humanity is flawed, their creations are also flawed. Everything is only what we believe it to be. So, in a way, science is a religion.

For example:

2+2=4

Why? Who decided that 2 is 2? Who decided that 2 more than 2 is 4? Sure, it makes things much more convenient to believe in a system of numbers that decides trivial things like this for us, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

Religion works the same way. Religion is just another truth that exists because people believe in it. Every single belief is its own religion, so I would say that both atheism and theism are religions in their own respect.

Saf · Joined: 23 Mar 2006 Posts: 377

Addison wrote: There is no direct proof God does not exist, and none that he does exist. There is only faith.
There are a plethora of a priori proofs against the existence of god. I would point you in the direction of Alfred J. Ayer or Betrand Russel as a good place to start. Even in Kantianism it can be proven that the notion of god is an inherently contradictory concept and therefore cannot be thought (it has no literal siginfigance, althought it may have emotional signifigance for you as an individual).