Political Crossfire Forums

[Ch33kY]

The director of Submission was murded for making a provocative film critical about the way some states use Islam to uphold conservative values towards women.

BBC wrote: As one of the Netherlands' most prominent MPs, Somalian-born Hirsi Ali has used her position to denounce the treatment of women in Islamic societies, earning her numerous death threats. She fled to the Netherlands to escape an arranged marriage. She learned Dutch, and worked as a cleaner before studying political science at university. In 2004, she made the film Submission with controversial Dutch film maker Theo Van Gogh in 2004 about Islam’s oppression of women, which led to Van Gogh’s murder.


- BBC on Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali who helped Theo van Gogh produce Submission. Theo van Gogh was later murded.

Edit: For those interested, here is a Google Video copy of Submission

[pharaoh]

Ch33kY wrote: The director of Submission was murded for making a provocative film critical about the way some states use Islam to uphold conservative values towards women.

BBC wrote: As one of the Netherlands' most prominent MPs, Somalian-born Hirsi Ali has used her position to denounce the treatment of women in Islamic societies, earning her numerous death threats. She fled to the Netherlands to escape an arranged marriage. She learned Dutch, and worked as a cleaner before studying political science at university. In 2004, she made the film Submission with controversial Dutch film maker Theo Van Gogh in 2004 about Islam’s oppression of women, which led to Van Gogh’s murder.


- BBC on Dutch MP Ayaan Hirsi Ali who helped Theo van Gogh produce Submission. Theo van Gogh was later murded.

Edit: For those interested, here is a Google Video copy of Submission

We all know that in some Islamic states the status of women is very low and it is infact against the teachings of Islam. And everybody is sorry for the death of this director.
Now what is left to discuss?

[Muslima]

adding to paroah's reply

there are women oppressed in non islamic societies too

such as india and some parts of south america!

[HomoUniversalis]

I think it is an interesting documentary, and have one in my personal possession.

Quote: Now what is left to discuss?

Perhaps the message of the documentary?

Mr U

[Ch33kY]

Muslima wrote: adding to paroah's reply

there are women oppressed in non islamic societies too

such as india and some parts of south america!

Well obviously. People are oppressed all over the world for various reasons.

But we are here to discuss this reason, in this context.

What message do you read from watching that documentary?

Also take into the account the reaction it has recieved.

[Muslima]

Well, first i felt sorry for the woman....
I do agree that there are some women suffering from these things BUT it is not because of the verses of the quran it is because many muslims haven't read the explanation of the quran therefore they don't understand what each verse means precisely.......you could take me as an example i cover my self, i pray and do everything asked from to do by allah....but i am not suffering like these women because my family understands the true meaning of he quran

many muslims don't even know how to read quran for god's sake!

as for the documentary....well i think that the way it is made is wrong because the woman is kind of questioning god for what happened to her and we muslims must believe in our destiny and questioning god is a great sin for we are very very sure that everything happening to us is because it is for the better, even if it is the worst....there is a verse in the quran that says you might love something that is bad for you and you might hate something that is good for you.....god is just and he doesn't make people suffer for no reason, there is a prize and the end

plus, even if she did all what allah asked ue muslim women to do, i think from own knowledge about my religion that a tiny innocent smile or peak at a strange man could be very sinful because as she said her relationship with him grew from that peak...there is i think a poem which says somewhere "a peak, a smile, a hi, a chat, a date, a meeting" and i continue to say "a disaster"...

as for the going out of the house that a very backward thinking, women could go anywhere they like any time....it is not like they are living in a prison..it is just that going out ot much makes women uncaring about their family and husbands and it might cause them to do sinful things that are not harmful except to them such as going to someone's and having a chit chat about a woman or something...becuase it is considered as eating flesh when talking about someone in a bad way in islam

i could go on and on....but you might get bored because you are not interested or you know it all

so basically the documentary could have been done in a more appropirate way

[Robin Hood]

Quote: i think from own knowledge about my religion that a tiny innocent smile or peak at a strange man could be very sinful

I don't a think 'smile' can ever be classed as sinful, and I really doubt that such a line is held to in the Quran.

[Saracen]

Reason wrote: Quote: i think from own knowledge about my religion that a tiny innocent smile or peak at a strange man could be very sinful

I don't a think 'smile' can ever be classed as sinful, and I really doubt that such a line is held to in the Quran.

You're right, but unnecessary attraction and flirting is somewhat sinful.

[Muslima]

it is not held in the quran

actually i think it is a verse from a poem.....

many studies have shown that when two different sexes stare at each other for a while get attracted to each other....and this is what islam is trying to limit.....attractions between different sexes should be between husbands and wifes only!

[Saracen]

Muslima wrote: it is not held in the quran

actually i think it is a verse from a poem.....

many studies have shown that when two different sexes stare at each other for a while get attracted to each other....and this is what islam is trying to limit.....attractions between different sexes should be between husbands and wifes only!

Yes, indeed. Islam teaches us to control our urges and our temptations. That's why it teaches us to avoid unnecessary contact with females.

[Muslima]

okay then. I am a female I should get the hell out of here (not!).

[Robin Hood]

Quote: Yes, indeed. Islam teaches us to control our urges and our temptations. That's why it teaches us to avoid unnecessary contact with females.

Surely the two are quite different. Self-control would be being able to have a platonic relationship with a beautiful woman, not meeting them would be a substitute for the self-control. I do think that

Of course it's your choice, but isn't it missing out on half of society? If you don't mind answering a fairly personal question: are you going to have arranged marriages?

[lowchen]

Muslima wrote: okay then. I am a female I should get the hell out of here (not!).

no no. come back young lady...

[Muslima]

Reason wrote: Quote: Yes, indeed. Islam teaches us to control our urges and our temptations. That's why it teaches us to avoid unnecessary contact with females.


Surely the two are quite different. Self-control would be being able to have a platonic relationship with a beautiful woman, not meeting them would be a substitute for the self-control. I do think that

Of course it's your choice, but isn't it missing out on half of society? If you don't mind answering a fairly personal question: are you going to have arranged marriages?

i don't think arranged marriages always turn bad, from what i see most failing marriages are from unarranged marriages, do you know why?

because successful marriages don't depend on arrangments and love
married people learn to love each other after marriage
if people try to understand each other very well and be ready to give up somethings then marriages will be very successful

[Muslima]

lowchen wrote: Muslima wrote: okay then. I am a female I should get the hell out of here (not!).

no no. come back young lady...

oh..i was joking

[Robin Hood]

Quote: i don't think arranged marriages always turn bad, from what i see most failing marriages are from unarranged marriages, do you know why?

I know people who's parents had arranged marriages and they are very happy, I never said they always turn bad. Unarranged marriages tend to be in countries whete the traditional role of the family has been assumed by the state via welfare and all that (increasing the likliehood of them breaking down); where they are richer so the woman can strike out by herself more easily; where the society is more open (pretty much by definition) and thus less unhappy mrriages are likely to stay together; and where women actually have some rights of divorce and all that. There are many reasons, none I think are likely to come from the fact that the couple choose one another.

You can not seriously argue that because people choose one another they will be more likely to break up than if they don't. It makes no sense at all.

[Saracen]

Reason wrote: Quote: i don't think arranged marriages always turn bad, from what i see most failing marriages are from unarranged marriages, do you know why?

I know people who's parents had arranged marriages and they are very happy, I never said they always turn bad. Unarranged marriages tend to be in countries whete the traditional role of the family has been assumed by the state via welfare and all that (increasing the likliehood of them breaking down); where they are richer so the woman can strike out by herself more easily; where the society is more open (pretty much by definition) and thus less unhappy mrriages are likely to stay together; and where women actually have some rights of divorce and all that. There are many reasons, none I think are likely to come from the fact that the couple choose one another.

You can not seriously argue that because people choose one another they will be more likely to break up than if they don't. It makes no sense at all.

Living together for several years increases the bondage between the husband and wife.

[John]

Saracen wrote: Reason wrote: Quote: i don't think arranged marriages always turn bad, from what i see most failing marriages are from unarranged marriages, do you know why?

I know people who's parents had arranged marriages and they are very happy, I never said they always turn bad. Unarranged marriages tend to be in countries whete the traditional role of the family has been assumed by the state via welfare and all that (increasing the likliehood of them breaking down); where they are richer so the woman can strike out by herself more easily; where the society is more open (pretty much by definition) and thus less unhappy mrriages are likely to stay together; and where women actually have some rights of divorce and all that. There are many reasons, none I think are likely to come from the fact that the couple choose one another.

You can not seriously argue that because people choose one another they will be more likely to break up than if they don't. It makes no sense at all.

Living together for several years increases the bondage between the husband and wife.

Nice choice of words. :lol:

[Saracen]

John wrote: Nice choice of words.

I just hope you understood what I meant.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Well I can tell you my observation from being in Turkey for a little while. In the larger cities, women's roles are much more liberal than in the suburban and rural areas. Istanbul and Izmir are vey modern and European feeling. Women play a very European type role - most young women wear the latest fashions, etc.

However, in the rural areas (from Bodrum to Pamukkale) you pass through many villages and small farming communities. Here's it's semi humorous to see the men driving their Massey Ferguson tractors with three or four women on the back of a wagon - 10 minutes later the men are headed back sans the wagon, into town where they play games, drink tea or "lions milk", gossip and talk politics until lunch - when they get back on the tractor - pick up the ladies from working in the fields since 7 am, demand lunch, then drop them back off until dinner time. During the heat of the summer that can't be fun and I'm sure the men served some purpose - I just didn't observe one. :wink: