Political Crossfire Forums

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6568 Location: US

I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10198

Dec 25th, was set as the celebration of Jesus birthday. To replace a celebration for one of the Roman gods...

Considering the multi-theism, within the Roman Empire at the time...I think it was very wise to roll some of the other religious elements into the Christian Church, so that it would appeal to a wider audience.

I see it like this: Although communion is celebrated routinely, mostly for the purposes of continuity for the traditional feast of wine and bread. err, those used to occur in the Emperor's temples. As long as it means, the celebration of the last supper to the individual. I really don't see why it matters, how it all got started. ;)

connermt · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 1526 Location: CMH OHIO

superchick wrote: I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

Aren't many religious 'celebrations' based on or around a former pagan holiday? But it seems most people don't realize that, so is there really any harm in making a religiou holiday on a former pagan holiday, as long as we are reverent of the religious holiday?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD,

You rulers of Sodom;

Give ear to the instruction of our God,

You people of Gomorrah.

11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"

Says the LORD.

"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams

And the fat of fed cattle;

And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

12 "When you come to appear before Me,

Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?

13 "Bring your worthless offerings no longer,

Incense is an abomination to Me.

New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--

I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.

14 "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,

They have become a burden to Me;

I am weary of bearing them.

15 "So when you spread out your hands in prayer,

I will hide My eyes from you;

Yes, even though you multiply prayers,

I will not listen.

Your hands are covered with blood.

16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;

Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.

Cease to do evil,

17 Learn to do good;

Seek justice,

Reprove the ruthless,

Defend the orphan,

Plead for the widow.

18 "Come now, and let us reason together,"

Says the LORD,

"Though your sins are as scarlet,

They will be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson,

They will be like wool.

19 "If you consent and obey,

You will eat the best of the land;

20 "But if you refuse and rebel,

You will be devoured by the sword."

Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6568 Location: US

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Isaiah 1:10 Hear the word of the LORD,

You rulers of Sodom;

Give ear to the instruction of our God,

You people of Gomorrah.

11 "What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?"

Says the LORD.

"I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams

And the fat of fed cattle;

And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.

12 "When you come to appear before Me,

Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?

13 "Bring your worthless offerings no longer,

Incense is an abomination to Me.

New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--

I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.

14 "I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,

They have become a burden to Me;

I am weary of bearing them.

15 "So when you spread out your hands in prayer,

I will hide My eyes from you;

Yes, even though you multiply prayers,

I will not listen.

Your hands are covered with blood.

16 "Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;

Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.

Cease to do evil,

17 Learn to do good;

Seek justice,

Reprove the ruthless,

Defend the orphan,

Plead for the widow.

18 "Come now, and let us reason together,"

Says the LORD,

"Though your sins are as scarlet,

They will be as white as snow;

Though they are red like crimson,

They will be like wool.

19 "If you consent and obey,

You will eat the best of the land;

20 "But if you refuse and rebel,

You will be devoured by the sword."

Truly, the mouth of the LORD has spoken.
So do you feel that it is celebrations revolving around pagan rituals under the cloak of Christianity?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

These, and other things as well.

Todd D. · Posted: Mon Mar 13, 2006 3:07 pm Post subject:

December 25th was not the day that Christ was born, of that we are almost certain. It's true that the date was modified to better ease the transition between Roman and Christian traditions. So what? When I celebrate Christmas I am remembering Christ's birth, regardless of when the actual date was.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

I would look in to the Council of Nicea, held by the Emporer Constantine in 325 AD. The council, among other things, estabilished the date of Christmas as December 25 (my birthday by the way) in order to help convert the pagans to the young religion of Christianity.

Quote: The popular Cult of Mithra (or Mithras) was indeed an embarrassment to the early church. Its roots are probably in Syria and it is believed to be an offshoot of the Persian cult of Zoroaster. It seems to have been introduced into the Roman Empire around 67BC. Born in a stable to a virgin, birthday celebrated on 25 December, died and reborn, Passover celebrated around Easter, whose rites of worship involved the ingestion of food and drink that were symbolic of eating the flesh of Mithra, and all this 600 years before the birth of Christ. Also included were rites of baptism, the belief in immortality, resurrection, a judgement at the end between Heaven and Hell, and a saviour who died and was resurrected to act as a mediator between man and God.

....

Other aspects of Jesus were modified to make him more acceptable to those who still worshipped the official state religion of Sun God Worship. Two dates have been put forward for Jesus's true birthday, one in early March and one early in September. This celebration was moved to 25 December because this is the date of the major feast of Sol Invictus.

This is not everything decreed by the Council, merely an illustration of the way the Church has distorted history. After all, it has been said that if you control history, then you control the future.

BBC and Council of Nicea

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

If you read Isaiah, you might note that his description of the problems in Israel in those days are a good description of the problems of our nation in this day, as well.

superchick · Joined: 30 Sep 2004 Posts: 6568 Location: US

I've kinda sensed this on my walk that it was not true to what it should be, and I have ignored it, basically for selfish reasons. I haven't been able to come to some reconciliation yet on what to do, but I am cleaning house right now on some beliefs as I try to grow more.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

superchick wrote: I've kinda sensed this on my walk that it was not true to what it should be, and I have ignored it, basically for selfish reasons. I haven't been able to come to some reconciliation yet on what to do, but I am cleaning house right now on some beliefs as I try to grow more.

I wouldn't let it bother you. If Easter and Christmas are important to you, and what they represent in your relgion is something that matters to you, why should the history of why the celebration came in to existence be important?

On Christmas, be with your family, celebrate the birth Jesus and have the most fulfilling spiritual experience you can. On Easter, celebrate Jesus' resurrection and what it means to your faith. Celebrate what that day means to you and your faith, not what it meant to people 1700 years ago.

What the celebration means to you, and your religion, is more important than the nitty-gritty details of why the celebration was first created.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: The council, among other things, estabilished the date of Christmas as December 25 (my birthday by the way) in order to help convert the pagans to the young religion of Christianity.

Not factual information. The first Nicean Council had nothing to do with that matter, whatsoever.
Quote: Documents Issued by the Council

The 318 bishops issued a creed (Symbolum), 20 canons, and a letter to the church of Alexandria. An English translation of these is available from http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3801.htm
http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/nicaea.html

This council dealt with three matters, the establishment of Christmas wasn't one them. These three matters are as follows, the Arian Heresy, the establishment of the Apostolic creed and 20 canons (standards), based on the scripture (it must have existed already to be able do this), and a matter concerning the adjudication of the district of the church at Alexandia.

Nothing about the trinity, writing the New Testament, or Christmas was discussed at this council.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

BTW December 25th also happens to be the date the Temple in Jerusalem was rededicated after it was defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes.

The holiday that celebrates this event is called Chanuka.

This has nothing to do with Christmas or Christianity, but it is an interesting fact, nevertheless.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

superchick wrote: I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

Colossians 2

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

sladeh · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 246

John wrote: superchick wrote: I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

Colossians 2

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

This section of Colossians, as so many of Paul's writings, are in direct opposition to the words of God through the prophets. God is extremely concerned about the manner in which we keep the festivals that he perscribed. If you don't mark the door, he will take your firstborn! He does not permit his children to touch pagan idols. The decree of the Sabbath is from God, not men. But what right does Paul belittle the Sabbath, which God says is eternal.

Here is an interesting verse about ye old tenenbaum:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

God, understands that we are not "worshipping" the tree, He said not to practice the pagan CUSTOM! I think we should listen.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

sladeh wrote: John wrote: superchick wrote: I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

Colossians 2

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

This section of Colossians, as so many of Paul's writings, are in direct opposition to the words of God through the prophets. God is extremely concerned about the manner in which we keep the festivals that he perscribed. If you don't mark the door, he will take your firstborn! He does not permit his children to touch pagan idols. The decree of the Sabbath is from God, not men. But what right does Paul belittle the Sabbath, which God says is eternal.

Here is an interesting verse about ye old tenenbaum:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

God, understands that we are not "worshipping" the tree, He said not to practice the pagan CUSTOM! I think we should listen.

I hear ya man. I went through a phase of thinking exactly what you're expressing here. I was too worried about religion instead of just living in a relationship with Christ.

The book of Jeremiah isn't speaking of Christmas that is understood in its modern understanding. The Lord is speaking about a belief in a false system of salvation propagated in the mystery Babylonian religion of Nimrod. Which I believe was a counterfeit strategically placed in time by Satan to discredit the real plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ. There are just enough similarities for the thinking person to come to the wrong conclusion that Christianity was borrowed from these pagan beliefs…..one who has done some research on the subject will see a common thread world wide through out all of the major religions of ancient time. I personally believe that they were strategically developed throughout the world by evil demonic forces to discredit God and cause the people who would live in the most populated time and would have access to world history to doubt the truth.

That being said…I believe that God has a way of turning something corrupt and evil into something good (kinda like he does with the heart of every saved person). Through His son Jesus Christ, God has taken the customs of the pagan and used them to reveal His true message of Salvation. God has in-effect used Satan’s plan against him. Someone who is just half awake can see that Satan is trying to make up for lost ground with political movements like trying to remove the word “Christ” from Christmas.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

John wrote: The book of Jeremiah isn't speaking of Christmas that is understood in its modern understanding. The Lord is speaking about a belief in a false system of salvation propagated in the mystery Babylonian religion of Nimrod. Which I believe was a counterfeit strategically placed in time by Satan to discredit the real plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ. There are just enough similarities for the thinking person to come to the wrong conclusion that Christianity was borrowed from these pagan beliefs…..one who has done some research on the subject will see a common thread world wide through out all of the major religions of ancient time. I personally believe that they were strategically developed throughout the world by evil demonic forces to discredit God and cause the people who would live in the most populated time and would have access to world history to doubt the truth.

That being said…I believe that God has a way of turning something corrupt and evil into something good (kinda like he does with the heart of every saved person). Through His son Jesus Christ, God has taken the customs of the pagan and used them to reveal His true message of Salvation. God has in-effect used Satan’s plan against him. Someone who is just half awake can see that Satan is trying to make up for lost ground with political movements like trying to remove the word “Christ” from Christmas.

I don't think that people feel that Christianity was borrowed from pagan faiths. Some of the practices associated with the holiday, and the establishment of the dates of said holidays, are pagan in origin. However, I think most would agree that the way in which the holiday is celebrated is not synonomous with the meaning behind it.

While modern Christians may put up a Christmas tree, which can be seen to have stemmed from pagan traditions, it does not mean they are any less devout in their Christian beliefs.

I am not accusing you of this, by any means, but I think there are too many people who put too much emphasis in the physical practices and customs, and don't focus on the meaning.

Christmas, to Christians, is a celebration of their savior. That time of year, to me, is a celebration of nature and the Goddess. Though we may celebrate with some of the same customs and totems (family dinners, Christmas trees, carols [and yes, I do like a lot of Christian themed Christmas carols]), we hold in our hearts different meanings. But, that shouldn't stop us from enjoying the season and the holiday together.

Random Evil Guy · Joined: 20 Dec 2005 Posts: 1805

i don't know about easter, but christmas is definately a pagan celebration. most of it is based on the northern european pagan tradition 'jul' or 'jol'. in scandinavia we still call the holiday 'jul' and not 'christ mass' or something like that.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24707

sladeh wrote: The decree of the Sabbath is from God, not men. But what right does Paul belittle the Sabbath, which God says is eternal.

That's a great point.

Hebrews chapter 3 really clears this issue up for me. I'll post it for you here, maybe it'll shine some light on the subject as it has for me......

Hebrews 3

1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

2 He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house.

3 For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.

4 For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.

5 Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;

6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

15 while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."

16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?

17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?

19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.

sladeh · Joined: 11 Jun 2004 Posts: 246

John wrote: sladeh wrote: John wrote: superchick wrote: I was just wanting to see some opinions on this. I have been doing some research and I don't like what I see. :cry: The 2 traditions and celebrations are not what I base my faith on, but the truth behind these "celebrations" seem to be pagan based. Long ago I stopped telling my daughter there was a santa or easter bunny because I did not want her to get confused in the meaning of what each celebration really was. Sooo..are we really celebrating a pagan holiday? Why or why not, or a little of both? Maybe the timing, but not the reason behind it?

Colossians 2

16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--

17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,

19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)--in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

This section of Colossians, as so many of Paul's writings, are in direct opposition to the words of God through the prophets. God is extremely concerned about the manner in which we keep the festivals that he perscribed. If you don't mark the door, he will take your firstborn! He does not permit his children to touch pagan idols. The decree of the Sabbath is from God, not men. But what right does Paul belittle the Sabbath, which God says is eternal.

Here is an interesting verse about ye old tenenbaum:

Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (KJV).

God, understands that we are not "worshipping" the tree, He said not to practice the pagan CUSTOM! I think we should listen.

I hear ya man. I went through a phase of thinking exactly what you're expressing here. I was too worried about religion instead of just living in a relationship with Christ.

The book of Jeremiah isn't speaking of Christmas that is understood in its modern understanding. The Lord is speaking about a belief in a false system of salvation propagated in the mystery Babylonian religion of Nimrod. Which I believe was a counterfeit strategically placed in time by Satan to discredit the real plan of Salvation through Jesus Christ. There are just enough similarities for the thinking person to come to the wrong conclusion that Christianity was borrowed from these pagan beliefs…..one who has done some research on the subject will see a common thread world wide through out all of the major religions of ancient time. I personally believe that they were strategically developed throughout the world by evil demonic forces to discredit God and cause the people who would live in the most populated time and would have access to world history to doubt the truth.

That being said…I believe that God has a way of turning something corrupt and evil into something good (kinda like he does with the heart of every saved person). Through His son Jesus Christ, God has taken the customs of the pagan and used them to reveal His true message of Salvation. God has in-effect used Satan’s plan against him. Someone who is just half awake can see that Satan is trying to make up for lost ground with political movements like trying to remove the word “Christ” from Christmas.

You are right! The decorating of the tree can be traced all the way to Nimrod, and therefore God is still speaking to us today, because we continue to honor the CUSTOMS of the pagans. I don't have to put myself in all kinds of uncomfortable postures to excuse behavior expressly forbidden by God. I just need to decide whether I believe the flowing harmony of holy scripture (which bears marks of authenticity encrypted whithin itself), or do I accept the sour notes of Paul's letters as truth. The doctrine of Paul is totally incompatible with the rest of the Bible, INHO. I say this about pagan customs not to be your judge concering new moons and christmas trees. That is for each of us to decide. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. Painting eggs for Ishtar is the opposite of honoring God, trying to justify pagan cutoms is just going to make you paint yourself into a corner.