Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

Now, I know that some of you guys are familiar with the Sunnite sub-sect known as Wahhabbism.

What's your take on it?

Personally, from my own experience, I found Wahhabbism to be a bit too strict, and have occasionally found a lot of wrongs in it, including a fatwa involving growing a beard instead of grooming it, less rights for women, and so forth.

[Saracen]

soldierofchrist wrote: Saracen wrote: Now, I know that some of you guys are familiar with the Sunnite sub-sect known as Wahhabbism.

What's your take on it?

Personally, from my own experience, I found Wahhabbism to be a bit too strict, and have occasionally found a lot of wrongs in it, including a fatwa involving growing a beard instead of grooming it, less rights for women, and so forth.
I don't know much about it, sounds like Islamic puritanism.

It is, in a way. They have many rules that involve total segregation of sexes, even during family visits and whatnot. They are a lot like your ultra-conservative Christians, I believe, but their rule in Saudi Arabia is like that of an iron hand on a butterfly.

-Women are not allowed to drive, or go in public without a male "guardian", for example.

-There are certainly a lot of other laws that give more rights to men over women, and more rights to Muslims over non-Muslims. I've always viewed them as intolerant, though.

[Locke25]

It's nuts! Isn't that what Saudi Arabians are? If so...NUTS.

[Saracen]

Locke25 wrote: It's nuts! Isn't that what Saudi Arabians are? If so...NUTS.

No, not all Saudi Arabians, but presumably those who are heading this movement and are the most extreme dishers of punishment.

They actually have religious police that would beat you with sticks if they found you in the streets during prayer time, though.

I've heard, however, that the religious police is undergoing disbanding.

[Glorfindel]

Moath ... coming from someone who told me he used to live in Saudi Arabia... I'm kind of surprised that you would such such misunderstandings about Wahabism...

It would not have shocked me if what you said about "wahabism" came from anybody but you man...

I'll say this... as one other muslims might might the mistake of calling a wahabi...I think there is no sub-sunni sect called wahabism... Saudi Arabians do not call themselves wahabis...

i have to go now.. but i'll expalin in more details about Wahabism later

peace

[Saracen]

Glorfindel wrote: Moath ... coming from someone who told me he used to live in Saudi Arabia... I'm kind of surprised that you would such such misunderstandings about Wahabism...

It would not have shocked me if what you said about "wahabism" came from anybody but you man...

I'll say this... as one other muslims might might the mistake of calling a wahabi...I think there is no sub-sunni sect called wahabism... Saudi Arabians do not call themselves wahabis...

i have to go now.. but i'll expalin in more details about Wahabism later

peace

Look, Glorfindel. I know that there are seemingly good aspects coming out of Wahabbism in that there are some puritanical concepts arising from it, but why is it that most of those who practice it are intolerant, and impose these things? We are not going to agree on everything here, Glorfindel. Keep that in mind. Now as you know, I'm a Sunnite, and proud to be one, and I stand for moderation in religion. However, I see Wahabbism to be a lot like ultra-conservative puritanical Christianity and Calvinist Protestantism in that there seem to be a lot of laws and practices that seem irrational to me (for example, the growing of the beard, more rights of men over women, and so forth).

I know it sounded shocking, but that's how I feel. I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.

Salaam.

[Glorfindel]

Saracen wrote: Glorfindel wrote: Moath ... coming from someone who told me he used to live in Saudi Arabia... I'm kind of surprised that you would such such misunderstandings about Wahabism...

It would not have shocked me if what you said about "wahabism" came from anybody but you man...

I'll say this... as one other muslims might might the mistake of calling a wahabi...I think there is no sub-sunni sect called wahabism... Saudi Arabians do not call themselves wahabis...

i have to go now.. but i'll expalin in more details about Wahabism later

peace

Look, Glorfindel. I know that there are seemingly good aspects coming out of Wahabbism in that there are some puritanical concepts arising from it, but why is it that most of those who practice it are intolerant, and impose these things? We are not going to agree on everything here, Glorfindel. Keep that in mind. Now as you know, I'm a Sunnite, and proud to be one, and I stand for moderation in religion. However, I see Wahabbism to be a lot like ultra-conservative puritanical Christianity and Calvinist Protestantism in that there seem to be a lot of laws and practices that seem irrational to me (for example, the growing of the beard, more rights of men over women, and so forth).

I know it sounded shocking, but that's how I feel. I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.

Salaam.

ok first of all i didnt ask if Pharoah feels the way you do. I said i was shocked because you told me you used to live there and i made the mistake of assuming that you know as much about the society in Saudi Arabia as i do. anyway.. lemme ask you this..do you know where the name wahabism came from? and please dont check wikipedia for the answer... if you dont know the answer by heart ..then you don't need to look for it... i'm asking you this question to see how much actually you know about wahabism

second thing i want from you is ...to tell me about the cases in which wahabism is putting men first and over women

how is wahabism giving men more power and authority over men?

i want you to tell me everything you find problematic with wahabism.

finally i didnt suspect that you are not a sunni or whatnot. the whole idea behind calling Saudis wahabis is unfounded.

i'll wait for your post before i explain everything about wahabism

peace

[Saracen]

Glorfindel wrote: do you know where the name wahabism came from?

Yes. It came from a man named Muhammad Ibn Abdl Wahhab.

Glorfindel wrote: second thing i want from you is ...to tell me about the cases in which wahabism is putting men first and over women


I got this claim from the fact that the Saudi government undergoes a form of Sharia that has been "reformed" by Wahabbism.

Glorfindel wrote: how is wahabism giving men more power and authority over men?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Glorfindel, but Wahabbism seems to advocate the infringement on womens' rights in Saudi Arabia.

Glorfindel wrote: i want you to tell me everything you find problematic with wahabism.

There are a lot of things I find in it that are seemingly strict. For example, the abstention of any contact whatsoever with women until it comes to marriage, even if it's just friendly talking. There are a lot of stuff, though. I've learned a lot about it from fatwas I see in Mosques.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm probably basing my perceptions on Wahabbism from the wrong sources. Maybe you can help me out.

But let me ask you: do you seriously think that the Saudi government is practicing Sharia 100% correctly? Personally I don't think so.

Salaam.

[Glorfindel]

Saracen wrote: Glorfindel wrote: do you know where the name wahabism came from?

Yes. It came from a man named Muhammad Ibn Abdl Wahhab.

Glorfindel wrote: second thing i want from you is ...to tell me about the cases in which wahabism is putting men first and over women


I got this claim from the fact that the Saudi government undergoes a form of Sharia that has been "reformed" by Wahabbism.

Glorfindel wrote: how is wahabism giving men more power and authority over men?

Correct me if I'm wrong, Glorfindel, but Wahabbism seems to advocate the infringement on womens' rights in Saudi Arabia.

Glorfindel wrote: i want you to tell me everything you find problematic with wahabism.

There are a lot of things I find in it that are seemingly strict. For example, the abstention of any contact whatsoever with women until it comes to marriage, even if it's just friendly talking. There are a lot of stuff, though. I've learned a lot about it from fatwas I see in Mosques.

Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm probably basing my perceptions on Wahabbism from the wrong sources. Maybe you can help me out.

But let me ask you: do you seriously think that the Saudi government is practicing Sharia 100% correctly? Personally I don't think so.

Salaam.

and what did mohammed ibn Abdulwahab teach? what new ideas did he present ?

you didnt give me enough to work with here but i'll work with what you gave me

the saudi government claims to apply the Sharia'a in its regulations but.. thats not totally true.. I mean Banks work with interests other applications that are prohibited in Islam...

but truth be told.. the Saudi government uses Sharia'a more tha any other muslim government in in the middleast..

again with the general comments man...you have to explain and provide details...how does wahabism advocate the violation of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

who told you that you must refrain from any contact with the other sex in wahabism? thats not true.. you can talk to strange women and when i say talk... i mean in a respected manner ...that doesnt mean you can be friends with them.. because you know to where that road might lead.. and also you can not talk to unrelated women when there is nobody around because the prohpet said that whenever a strange man and a strange woman are alone , the devil would be with them.

tell me of what you have learnt and what those fatwas you have seen were talking about so that i can go on with my response

the Saudi governemtn as i said before is not practicing sharia'a 100% ...but they are as close as can be found in our day and day... this is a sorrowful and unfortunate thing... but it is better than nothing.. wouldnt you agree?


and about the shaving of the beard ... well that is not something that Ibn AbdulWahab came up with... it is one of the teachings of our prophet... look it up man.

please my dear friend give me all you know about Wahabism... you posted a thread in the forum about it and so far you are not giving a detail explanation about what you think wahabism is.

i will tell you more about the truth behind wahabism later

[Saracen]

Glorfindel wrote: the saudi government claims to apply the Sharia'a in its regulations but.. thats not totally true.. I mean Banks work with interests other applications that are prohibited in Islam...

Ok, I agree that interest is haram and something that promotes fisal inequality, but didn't the Prophet (pbuh) receive this in revelation?

Glorfindel wrote: who told you that you must refrain from any contact with the other sex in wahabism? thats not true.. you can talk to strange women and when i say talk... i mean in a respected manner ...that doesnt mean you can be friends with them.. because you know to where that road might lead.. and also you can not talk to unrelated women when there is nobody around because the prohpet said that whenever a strange man and a strange woman are alone , the devil would be with them.

Ok. That disturbed me a bit. As a Muslim male, one must treat women who are in his age range like his sisters, no more, no less, right? And a sister is like your friend, of course. But what you're trying to say is that one should not spend too much time with women especially before marriage? That I can agree with, though, especially in cases that can lead to unwanted (sexual) contact.

Glorfindel wrote: tell me of what you have learnt and what those fatwas you have seen were talking about so that i can go on with my response

Now, about Wahabbism: I get the impression that the religious police are the strictest followers of Wahabbism. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. How could Sharia invoke the religious police in that they actually go around and beat up even non-Muslims in the streets during prayer time for not going to prayer? How come, in the case of the Medina school fire, were the girls not allowed to escape and the firemen were not allowed to enter? That's extreme, right? Tell me something, Glorfindel: I always saw Saudi Arabia as an ultra-conservative country that uses barbaric laws on its own citizens, especially in the justice system, which I see is more favorable to men, especially in cases of adultery and rape. Could it be that they're overdoing it?

Glorfindel wrote: the Saudi governemtn as i said before is not practicing sharia'a 100% ...but they are as close as can be found in our day and day... this is a sorrowful and unfortunate thing... but it is better than nothing.. wouldnt you agree?

I'm sorry, but I can't. The Caliphates were better than nothing, and so were the Ottomans. And then you have the UAE, whose leader shows some promise in being a down-to-earth Islamic ruler. Saudi Arabia's practices have always made it look bad in front of the world, and then there is the indoctrination of hate found in many schools in Saudi Arabia. I've seen quite a lot myself, Glorfindel, and I was shocked at what I discovered. Do you think that the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for intolerance and hate-mongering? You know especially what I'm talking about when it comes to Saudi history books.

Glorfindel wrote: and about the shaving of the beard ... well that is not something that Ibn AbdulWahab came up with... it is one of the teachings of our prophet... look it up man.

The Prophhet (pbuh) said that it is preferred for men to trim their mustaches and groom their beards to a very short length in that it does not come out like some bush or hairy mess: a messy beard would be a good incubating site for germs and other microbes, and the Prophet (pbuh) would never have advocated something that would bring about uncleanliness. I saw this disturbing fatwa: that grooming your beards to such a length is favorable. I said "Impossible...". I remember talking to my mom about it the other day, and she said that this is a bid3a. Yes, I know that Wahabbism reformed the bida3 of Salafism and Qutubism and whatnot, but by doing so, I see that it has even brought its own bid3as (heresy or exaggerated belief; maybe you can translate better).

Glorfindel wrote: again with the general comments man...you have to explain and provide details...how does wahabism advocate the violation of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

I'm talking about the violation of women's rights in public and the justice system. Tell me: if a women gets raped, will she get punished, too?

I changed the thread title so we can address this issue and see what a viable solution to Saudi Arabia's problems are. Let's make this discussion fruitful and educational so the other posters can see the positives more clearly (they already know about the negatives).

Salaam.

[Glorfindel]

Saracen wrote: Glorfindel wrote: the saudi government claims to apply the Sharia'a in its regulations but.. thats not totally true.. I mean Banks work with interests other applications that are prohibited in Islam...

Ok, I agree that interest is haram and something that promotes fisal inequality, but didn't the Prophet (pbuh) receive this in revelation?

Glorfindel wrote: who told you that you must refrain from any contact with the other sex in wahabism? thats not true.. you can talk to strange women and when i say talk... i mean in a respected manner ...that doesnt mean you can be friends with them.. because you know to where that road might lead.. and also you can not talk to unrelated women when there is nobody around because the prohpet said that whenever a strange man and a strange woman are alone , the devil would be with them.

Ok. That disturbed me a bit. As a Muslim male, one must treat women who are in his age range like his sisters, no more, no less, right? And a sister is like your friend, of course. But what you're trying to say is that one should not spend too much time with women especially before marriage? That I can agree with, though, especially in cases that can lead to unwanted (sexual) contact.

Glorfindel wrote: tell me of what you have learnt and what those fatwas you have seen were talking about so that i can go on with my response

Now, about Wahabbism: I get the impression that the religious police are the strictest followers of Wahabbism. Correct me if I'm wrong, though. How could Sharia invoke the religious police in that they actually go around and beat up even non-Muslims in the streets during prayer time for not going to prayer? How come, in the case of the Medina school fire, were the girls not allowed to escape and the firemen were not allowed to enter? That's extreme, right? Tell me something, Glorfindel: I always saw Saudi Arabia as an ultra-conservative country that uses barbaric laws on its own citizens, especially in the justice system, which I see is more favorable to men, especially in cases of adultery and rape. Could it be that they're overdoing it?

Glorfindel wrote: the Saudi governemtn as i said before is not practicing sharia'a 100% ...but they are as close as can be found in our day and day... this is a sorrowful and unfortunate thing... but it is better than nothing.. wouldnt you agree?

I'm sorry, but I can't. The Caliphates were better than nothing, and so were the Ottomans. And then you have the UAE, whose leader shows some promise in being a down-to-earth Islamic ruler. Saudi Arabia's practices have always made it look bad in front of the world, and then there is the indoctrination of hate found in many schools in Saudi Arabia. I've seen quite a lot myself, Glorfindel, and I was shocked at what I discovered. Do you think that the Prophet (pbuh) would advocate for intolerance and hate-mongering? You know especially what I'm talking about when it comes to Saudi history books.

Glorfindel wrote: and about the shaving of the beard ... well that is not something that Ibn AbdulWahab came up with... it is one of the teachings of our prophet... look it up man.

The Prophhet (pbuh) said that it is preferred for men to trim their mustaches and groom their beards to a very short length in that it does not come out like some bush or hairy mess: a messy beard would be a good incubating site for germs and other microbes, and the Prophet (pbuh) would never have advocated something that would bring about uncleanliness. I saw this disturbing fatwa: that grooming your beards to such a length is favorable. I said "Impossible...". I remember talking to my mom about it the other day, and she said that this is a bid3a. Yes, I know that Wahabbism reformed the bida3 of Salafism and Qutubism and whatnot, but by doing so, I see that it has even brought its own bid3as (heresy or exaggerated belief; maybe you can translate better).

Glorfindel wrote: again with the general comments man...you have to explain and provide details...how does wahabism advocate the violation of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

I'm talking about the violation of women's rights in public and the justice system. Tell me: if a women gets raped, will she get punished, too?

I changed the thread title so we can address this issue and see what a viable solution to Saudi Arabia's problems are. Let's make this discussion fruitful and educational so the other posters can see the positives more clearly (they already know about the negatives).

Salaam.

of course he did... what is the point of your question?

as a muslim one must treat all women... not only women within his age range... as his sisters...

a muslim should treat old women and young ones as his sisters... he should treat related women and unralted ones as his sisters...

the idea behind this is that a muslim should help his muslim sisters and prtect them if they are in danger... a muslim is not prohibited from talking to women ..as long as this he is not crossing the line of respect and decency. you can't talk to a strange woman like you are talking to your own biological sister. that would not be respectful.

there are centain lines that must not be crossed when talking to unrelated women. it does not have anything to do with being married or not... in fact after you get married you should be more careful

the religious police... as you might like to call them.. are the few who still uphold one of the most importance teachings of Islam... which is advising poeple to do what is right and advising people against doing what is wrong ( AlAmr belMa'aroof wa Alnahi aan Almonkar). the religous police is not a wahabi invention... it is a part of our religion... Omar bin Alkattah used to do it and he used to hit those who sleep in the time of a prayer with a stick. if the religious police follow anything... they are following Islam better than any of us.

the beating of some non-muslim and telling them to go pray is an exaggerated accident... it happened once by a mistaken member of the religous police and was exaggerated and used as propaganda against those people... I know the whole story and believe me ..it is not something that takes palce on a daily basis

about the fire accident in the girls school in AlMedina... well ..let me guess where you read that huge lie... in Alwatan newspaper right?

it is a lie man... the religous police did not stop anybody from helping and themselves helped as well...they were seen with the fire brigades and cops helping and carrying injured girls to hospitals and ambulances... they did not stand by and watch little girls burn to death... that is a one big lie and advertised by the enemies of those people who without them , the society in saudi Arabia would have been in a much worse situation.

again with generalities... what barbaric laws are you referring to now? how is the judicial system favoring men over women?

and about who practices sharia'a... can you tell me please... where are the caliphates now? where do the ottomans rule? I'm asking because I want to go to that land where the Sharia'a is practiced 100%

my friend I said that in our day and age ... the government of Saudi Arabia are the government in the middleast that practices the sharia'a the most...more than any other government in that region

I know the Caliphates and the ottomans upheld the sharia'a better than the Saudi government.. but both have ceased to exist man... that's why something is better than nothing for now... until we can make some changes for the best.

about the governors of UAE... I mean .. are you serious? maybe you have not been to Dubai or Abu Dhabi... but the governor that would let alcohol and prostitution flouish in the land they rule can in no way be better than the governemnt seen in Saudi Arabia. and who down-to-earth ruler from UAE are you talking about? the one who attends Quran competitions at day and half naked female singers singing lyrics who himself has written at night? the one who calls himself the knight of the arabs? or are you talking about the one who keeps building hotels and skyscrapers with 15000$ door knops while there are muslims dying of diseases and starvation all over Africa and Asia? is that the down-to-earth islamic ruler you are talking about?

as saudi who did not go to secondary school in his country... I can't talk about that stage of education... but i can talk about the elemntary stage.. and I can say that i rmember nothing that taught hate or intolerance. about Saudi history books... again i can't discuss such generality... you are gonna have to be more specific and give me examples or seomthing to work with here

about the beard and moustache... the prophet taught us to trim our moustaches and not shave our beards... that does not mean you cant trim your beard and take care of it... but you should not shave it... and some scholars said your beard should long enough that you can hold it with your hand..like 5 to 7 centimeters... by the way... it is not PREFERRED.. it is an obligation... a duty... it is not like "you should have a bread but if you don't want to ..then it is all good"...

and if you take care of your beard then it won't be a habitat for germs and bacteria... and as a muslim... you clean your face more than once a day because you have to be clean before you pray and if you wash your bread and clean it... it won't be a palce for dirt and germs... i think the same thing goes for all parts of your body as well... so the excuse of shaving one's beard because it can be a place for germs and dirt is not a valid excuse.

wahabism did not bring anything new to Islam... nothing at all... all Ibn Abdulwahab did is stop the return of ignorance and worship of false idols and graves in Saudi Arabia..that is all he did... he stop people from praying to Zaid ibn Alkattab ( his grave is in Najd by the way) and other ignorant customs...

all he did is tell the people of Najd not to pray to graves ... thats it. he told the people that those graves and whoever lies beneath them can do nothing to us.. the living. I think Pharoah would know what I am talking about with very simple minded and ignorant people in Eygpt going to certain places and pray to graves for blessings or health. and the same problem is found in Syria as well... with people going to the grave of Khliad ibn Alwaleed and others to ask for whatever. this action contradicts with the most important and first pillar of Islam..which there is only one God... there is only god from whom you should ask for protection or blessing or forgivness... and if that certain someone beneath that grave could do anything to anybody... wouldn't he help himself get out of that grave? that's all Ibn Abdulwahab had preached. i wish there was another Abdulwahab in Egypt , Syria, Iraq and other places

he absolutely brought nothing new to Islam... the conservative or "strict" thing is not a part of his teachings... it is partly because most Saudis and all poeple who live in the Arabian peninsula are of the Hanbali sub-sect of sunnah..

i hate it when you call saudis conservative or strict and referring that conservatism to wahabism..... it sounds like we are making Islam more than what it is... I mean I don't call you liberal or something worse because you are not of the same Hanbali sub-sect as I am. I know that you and i differ in very small aspects of discussion between our sub-sects...and those differances are so small they are not worth mentioning... but I don't make it sound that you make Islam less than what it is. you catch my draft?

finally if a woman gets raped... then she is not to be punished for a crime in which she is the victim. that would not be fair and I don't think that in Saudi Arabia they punish women for getting raped... last year a girl was raped and they did not execute her. that would have been unreasonable.

peace

[pharaoh]

Quote: I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.



I am 110% percent afainst Wahabism and Saudi Arabia with its regime, Sheikhs, way of life...pretty much everything.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.



I am 110% percent afainst Wahabism and Saudi Arabia with its regime, Sheikhs, way of life...pretty much everything.

That makes the two of us, but Glorfindel cleared up some of the stuff, though.

Now, let's address Saudi Arabia.

[Glorfindel]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.



I am 110% percent afainst Wahabism and Saudi Arabia with its regime, Sheikhs, way of life...pretty much everything.

what kind of a post is this? just declare you are against something and go on your way? how can you be against something that does not exist? how can I reply to this post?

what makes me think is that you quoted my whole post in which i talked about the non-existense of wahabism... yet you write that you are against it. it doesnt exist man. there is no such thing and wahabism added nothing to Islam. it is like you took the whole debate a step back man.

same thing goes to you Moath... wahabism does not exist... in fact it assures me that when someone talks about wahabism like it is this strange extreme sub-sect, that they don't really know what they are talking about

I guess as much as i try to show the other non-muslim memebers in this club that what they hear and see about Islam in the media is not true... maybe I also have to show my muslim brethren that what they read and see about wahabism is not true either

please brother pharoah, give me certain viewpoints and ideas that i can discuss with you...

salam

[Saracen]

Glorfindel, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

[Glorfindel]

Saracen wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.



I am 110% percent afainst Wahabism and Saudi Arabia with its regime, Sheikhs, way of life...pretty much everything.

That makes the two of us, but Glorfindel cleared up some of the stuff, though.

Now, let's address Saudi Arabia.

my friend, does it make any differenace that two ,instead of one, hold the same misled information about something? it doesn't mean you are right... in fact it makes it worse.

now since you and I have been in a very productive discussion ... what issues have i cleared up and what issues have i not cleared up? and what issues that you think they need more discussion?

one important question is... do you now understand that Ibn Abdulwahab did not bring anything new to Islam?

salam

[HomoUniversalis]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: I'm not Saudi to know it, man, but don't be shocked from now on. It's how pharaoh feels as well, I bet.



I am 110% percent afainst Wahabism and Saudi Arabia with its regime, Sheikhs, way of life...pretty much everything.

How can you be against a regime that serves the same God as you do, and does the things they do in the name of the same God you worship?

How do you explain the discrepancies in your respective orthopraxies?

Mr U

[Saracen]

Mr U wrote: How can you be against a regime that serves the same God as you do, and does the things they do in the name of the same God you worship?

The regime is a tyrannical one.

[HomoUniversalis]

Saracen wrote: Mr U wrote: How can you be against a regime that serves the same God as you do, and does the things they do in the name of the same God you worship?

The regime is a tyrannical one.

Tyranny is a method. You can agree with their message, but not how they choose to spread it. This is fundamentally different from being against something. I am against the regime because not only am I against their tyranny, I'm also against the religion they have alleviated to a divine status. I believe it numbs the senses and reason and reduces life to an airport that always flies on time.

Mr U

[Glorfindel]

HomoUniversalis wrote: Saracen wrote: Mr U wrote: How can you be against a regime that serves the same God as you do, and does the things they do in the name of the same God you worship?

The regime is a tyrannical one.

Tyranny is a method. You can agree with their message, but not how they choose to spread it. This is fundamentally different from being against something. I am against the regime because not only am I against their tyranny, I'm also against the religion they have alleviated to a divine status. I believe it numbs the senses and reason and reduces life to an airport that always flies on time.

Mr U

it is a sad day when the aethist can show more understanding and reason than my own muslim brothers

Moath ... if you mean by the regime... the political one adopted in Saudi Arabia... then i'm gonna have to agree with you...

but if you are referring to wahabism as tyrannical then..i'm gonna have to say this again... wahabism does not exist... I hope you are not saying that Hanbal-ism is tyrannical... because you and i dont have enough knowledge to say such thing

peace