Political Crossfire Forums

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Viserys wrote: joe christian wrote: Secular killing of Jewish, Christian and Muslim babies is religious persecution.

Wow, this seems so ridiculous it's hard to believe you're not joking. You sound as if people are walking up to random babies born to a Christian family and stabbing them in the face.
It is worse than that. Killing Catholic or Protestant babies without the consent of the Catholic and Protestant Community is tantamount to religious genocide on the part of secular and feminist abortionists.

Quote: First, the "babies" aren't even born yet. So a Christian woman WILLINGLY goes to an abortionist and aborts the fetus. The act is not (currently) illegal, and it was willingly done by both the abortionist and the woman. Is this suddenly religious persecution? Because of coincidence, does the abortionist magically turn into a person who tries to exterminate religious people?

Let's see a similar situation. Pretend I am a barber. One day a man comes to the shop and pays to be shaven bald. I do so and accept the money. Do I want everyone to be bald? Am I trying to rid the world of hair? Of course not, and it would be stupid to think that way.
Rather than your silly and stupid barbershop analogy, let's compare the abortion situation to what happened in Nazi Germany.

Didn't the German Jews and Christians originally consent to being governed by the National Socialists who eventually prescribed a medical solution for the termination of their problems?

http://www.remember.org/educate/medexp.html

http://www.auschwitz.dk/doctors.htm

http://www.plannedparenthoodexposed.com/

http://www.klannedparenthood.com/History_of_Abortion_Statistics/

Facts on Abortion
American Death Camps
List of Abortion Clinics
There used to be over 2000 abortion clinics in America. Today, there are 737. This page lists every abortion clinic in America.

http://www.lifedynamics.com/

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

joe christian wrote: Viserys wrote: joe christian wrote: Secular killing of Jewish, Christian and Muslim babies is religious persecution.

Wow, this seems so ridiculous it's hard to believe you're not joking. You sound as if people are walking up to random babies born to a Christian family and stabbing them in the face.
It is worse than that. Killing Catholic or Protestant babies without the consent of the Catholic and Protestant Community is tantamount to religious genocide on the part of secular and feminist abortionists.

I'm a member of the white community; should I have say against doctors aborting white fetuses because it is tantamount to racial genocide? I'm a member of the American community; should I have say against doctors aborting American fetuses because it is tantamount to nationalist genocide? I'm a member of the wealthy community; should I have say against doctors aborting wealthy fetuses because it is tantamount to class genocide? I could go on forever, but I think you get my drift.

No community does or should ever have any say whatsoever between two consenting individuals. When doctors start performing abortions on unconsenting mothers, you'll have a case; but guess what, they aren't. So please kindly mind your own business.

joechristian wrote:
Quote: First, the "babies" aren't even born yet. So a Christian woman WILLINGLY goes to an abortionist and aborts the fetus. The act is not (currently) illegal, and it was willingly done by both the abortionist and the woman. Is this suddenly religious persecution? Because of coincidence, does the abortionist magically turn into a person who tries to exterminate religious people?

Let's see a similar situation. Pretend I am a barber. One day a man comes to the shop and pays to be shaven bald. I do so and accept the money. Do I want everyone to be bald? Am I trying to rid the world of hair? Of course not, and it would be stupid to think that way.
Rather than your silly and stupid barbershop analogy, let's compare the abortion situation to what happened in Nazi Germany.

Didn't the German Jews and Christians originally consent to being governed by the National Socialists who eventually prescribed a medical solution for the termination of their problems?

I think it's a pretty good analogy, and that yours is ludicrous. What was done to the Jews and other groups was done without consent. All abortions are done with consent.

joechristian wrote: Of course, what we really want to know is the race and religion of the abortionists who are butchering white and black Christian babies in the US.
Ummm...why? Would this suddenly change what consenting individuals are doing?

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: joe christian wrote: Killing Catholic or Protestant babies without the consent of the Catholic and Protestant Community is tantamount to religious genocide on the part of secular and feminist abortionists.
I'm a member of the white community; should I have say against doctors aborting white fetuses because it is tantamount to racial genocide?
You could certainly protest white secular abortionists killing a disproportionate number of black American babies without paternal or religious consent.
Quote: I'm a member of the American community; should I have say against doctors aborting American fetuses because it is tantamount to nationalist genocide?
Definitely, especially if you are a Christian American nationalist who strenuously objects to the secular, atheist, feminist and homosexual agenda of butchering a million Christian babies every year.
Quote: I could go on forever, but I think you get my drift.
I think you may be in danger of drifting off into obscurantism and irrelevence.
Quote: No community does or should ever have any say whatsoever between two consenting individuals.
That certainly removes all Christian couples who have mutually consented to marry from the snares and clutches of the death-by-abortion community.
Quote: When doctors start performing abortions on unconsenting mothers, you'll have a case; but guess what, they aren't.
There is no public evidence that any Catholic or Protestant women have religiously consented to have their husband's babies ripped from their wombs.
Quote: So please kindly mind your own business.
Baby-killers and child molesters are everyone's concern, and part of the general public's political and religious business.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

Again how is knowing the religions, ethniticity, etc of a doctor going to change anything when it comes to having abortions?

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: All abortions are done with consent.
That's the equivalent of a national socialist lie.

http://www.afterabortion.info/petition/Forced_Abortions.pdf

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/mar/04030910.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37482

joechristian wrote: Of course, what we really want to know is the race and religion of the abortionists who are butchering white and black Christian babies in the US.
Quote: Ummm...why? Would this suddenly change what consenting individuals are doing?
Definitely, since mutual consent between married persons in a medical environment is neither grounds for committing racial adultery nor legal justification for committing religious abortions.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

joe christian wrote: Prole wrote: All abortions are done with consent.
That's the equivalent of a national socialist lie.

Sorry; all legal abortions in America are done with consent. Back to your nitpicking.

joechristian wrote:
Definitely, since mutual consent between married persons in a medical environment is neither grounds for committing racial adultery nor legal justification for committing religious abortions.
The husband's consent isn't required. And abortions are secular.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: Sorry; all legal abortions in America are done with consent.
There is no evidence to support that supposition. It's just an abortionist lie as my weblinks prove.

Quote: The husband's consent isn't required. And abortions are secular.
How can abortions be secular when life is sacred? No doubt the abortionists are secular socialists like the national socialists were, unless they choose to identify themselves as being members of some religious denomination.

Of course the husband's consent isn't required by secular socialists any more than it was when national socialists dragged some Jewish man's wife off and raped or aborted her.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

joe christian wrote: Prole wrote: Sorry; all legal abortions in America are done with consent.
There is no evidence to support that supposition. It's just an abortionist lie as my weblinks prove.

Abrotions done without consent are illegal by definition. Sorry to rain on your parade.

joechristian wrote:
Quote: The husband's consent isn't required. And abortions are secular.
How can abortions be secular when life is sacred?
I don't think that a preborn human's life is sacred; that is a personal and/or religious viewpoint.

joechristian wrote: No doubt the abortionists are secular socialists like the national socialists were, unless they choose to identify themselves as being members of some religious denomination.
Nazis were all Christians and made abortion by choice illegal. And even if your comparison did stand (which it does not, though you did an admirable job of shooting yourself in the foot), merely associating one group with another does not mean that entirely different practices of the two groups have any moral parallels.

joechristian wrote:
Of course the husband's consent isn't required by secular socialists any more than it was when national socialists dragged some Jewish man's wife off and raped or aborted her.
The problem with rape is that there is not consent between the man and the woman; the husband's consent shouldn't have any legal importance. And if a Jewish woman consented to have sex with someone, then the husband doesn't have any legal grounds to go against it in a secular society such as ours.

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

And here I was thinking that some logic behind Joe's argument.

Nice job Prole.

http://www.forerunner.com/fyi/news/pr080601.htm <-- Forced abortions are illegal.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: Abrotions done without consent are illegal by definition. Sorry to rain on your parade.
The Holocaust was legal according the national socialist law. So was slavery legal in American law. Immoral laws are illegal.
Quote: I don't think that a preborn human's life is sacred; that is a personal and/or religious viewpoint.
So is your viewpoint personal. What do you hold sacred? National socialist jurisprudence and law?

Quote: Nazis were all Christians ....
That's religious defamation, since by definition, nazis were members of the National Socialist Party.

Quote: ... merely associating one group with another does not mean that entirely different practices of the two groups have any moral parallels.
Secular socialism and Social Darwinism in America was the model German national socialism was based on.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

So, in short, what contitutes "immoral" in your eyes is illegal (depsite being actually legal in some cases, including abortion) and people who support people's choice to abort are Nazis (despite having completely opposite viewpoints regarding abortion by choice)?

Brilliant.

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

joe christian wrote: Prole wrote: Abrotions done without consent are illegal by definition. Sorry to rain on your parade.
The Holocaust was legal according the national socialist law. So was slavery legal in American law. Immoral laws are illegal.

The thing is, not all of us agree on what is moral or immoral -- if I thought Christianity, for example, was immoral, should I say that Christianity is illegal because I believe it's "immoral"?

Not that I actually might think Christianity is immoral, but you can't say "I/group of people" think that ____ is immoral. Let's make it illegal," and disregard what other people think is moral/immoral.

joe christian wrote: So is your viewpoint personal. What do you hold sacred? National socialist jurisprudence and law?

That's a really personal attack -- not to mention a crude assumption -- and doesn't really add to this conversation. Why are you assuming that just because someone doesn't view a reborn human's life as sacred the person holds "National socialist jurisprudence and law" as sacred. You might as well say "Hey, you're not vegetarian? You must really, really hate animals!"

joe christian wrote: That's religious defamation, since by definition, nazis were members of the National Socialist Party.

What if it was true that many/all nazis were Christian? Should we avoid saying it -- even if it's true -- because it is offensive to some people? If one day we find Asians are more inclined towards... I don't know, suicide or cancer, should we avoid saying it because it will insult Asians?

joe christian wrote: Secular socialism and Social Darwinism in America was the model German national socialism was based on.

Yeah well they took it too far. We don't.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2327 Location: Edinburgh

Welcome to PCF sgtshortness. Thanks for defending me; I do appreciate it.

joe christian, I resent your personal attacks, and will not tolerate them, nor does PCF. I am no more a Nazi than you are a Jihadist, and do not appreciate you insinuating that I am.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Prole wrote: Welcome to PCF sgtshortness. Thanks for defending me; I do appreciate it.

joe christian, I resent your personal attacks, and will not tolerate them, nor does PCF. I am no more a Nazi than you are a Jihadist, and do not appreciate you insinuating that I am.
Sorry if you take my comparision of abortion on demand in secular socialism (USA) to the holocaust of national socialism as a personal attack on your own humanistic logic and philosophy.

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

Do you know how far into the pregnancy these babies were aborted? It seems like.. late term abortion, looking at the development of the babies and that it has a link to "more info on partial birth abortions." Partial birth abortions -- in the third trimester -- are only legal when it threatens the woman's life.

Anyways, your graphic images (which are illegal unless it threatens thhe woman's life) do not make an argument. Yes, it looks disgusting. So what? I bet meat looks disgusting after the death of the animal. Putting graphic pictures of dead cows makes a weak argument, if any at all.

By the way, you never refuted all of our arguments -- about Christians and Nazis. Could you please?

Neways, let's get back to the original intent of the topic. We've been wandering.

joe christian wrote: We therefore denounce all medical doctors and medical organizations who perform abortions on Catholic, Protestant, Jewish and Muslim women without their being fully informed of the doctor's religion, religious affiliation or lack thereof, and their written consent acknowledging the religious identification of both the doctor, and the owners and operators of the abortion facility.

So, in a nutshell, women shouldn't be allowed to have abortions unless they get "religious consent/permission" -- from priest/rabbi, correct? I pull this information from some of your later posts. I hope I'm right about what you intend to petition.

Anyways, assuming I know what that post meant, this would mean that, likely (because of religious beliefs held by Christians and Jews, I don't know about Muslims), women of the Christian religion would not be allowed to have abortions. Their rabbi (what's plural for rabbi?) and priests would be controlling that aspect of their lives.

That's where we step over the line -- giving religious leaders priveleges over secular rights. That's the first thing.

You go on to say that.. Christian babies are babies born to Christian women, and killing them is religious persecution. Let me remidn you that the fetus/baby/whatevertermyouwanttouse is NOT. Christian. Religion is acquired, not inherited. The baby is not Christian.

And then you go on to say that those who perform abortions shoudl be required to give information as to what faith they belong to; secular killing of Christian babies is religious persecution. Wow.

Viserys' analogy was a good one. But let me get this straight: A Christian woman goes to an atheistic doctor. The Christian woman, by her own means, tells the doctor she wants an abortion. No one forces it on her. The doctor doesn't know if she's Christian or not. The woman doesn't bother to ask the doctor's religion. The doctor performs the abortion -- let's say first trimester, perfectly legal by current standards -- and it's religious persecution? So a Christian person tells someone to do somethign to her body and it's religious persecution. Explain to me the logic of that.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Atheistic and secular abortion of Jewish, Christian and Muslim women without paternal or family notification is religious persecution.

How would you like it if Jews, Christians and Muslims eliminated some of your atheistic and secular population without your knowledge and consent?

Immoral abortion laws aren't really laws at all. They are just atheistic and secular methods of extermination.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

joe christian wrote: Atheistic and secular abortion of Jewish, Christian and Muslim women without paternal or family notification is religious persecution.

How would you like it if Jews, Christians and Muslims eliminated some of your atheistic and secular population without your knowledge and consent?

Immoral abortion laws aren't really laws at all. They are just atheistic and secular methods of extermination.

Define eliminated.

If you're referring to abortion, why do I need to know about a fellow believers body choices? If one of your fellow Christian's ate a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without you knowing, how would you feel? Oh, you wouldn't care? Neither do I.

I don't think the majority of doctors performing abortions are atheists. In case you didn't know, most people in the United States are Christian.

You should become a paparazzi.

sgtshortness · Joined: 17 Mar 2006 Posts: 82

joe christian wrote: Atheistic and secular abortion of Jewish, Christian and Muslim women without paternal or family notification is religious persecution.

Definition of persecution: dictionary.com wrote: The act or practice of persecuting on the basis of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs that differ from those of the persecutor.

Abortions performed on religious women are only religious persecution if the intent was religious -- as in the abortion was performed because of the fact that the woman was religious. Doctors do not go out and seek woman that are religious just to abort their fetuses -- they abort fetuses because the woman asked them to.

joe christian wrote: How would you like it if Jews, Christians and Muslims eliminated some of your atheistic and secular population without your knowledge and consent?

How I feel is of no consequence.

If it was an abortion, I'd think "hey, it was their choice."

If someone was murdered and happened to be an atheist, the religion still probaly wouldn't have an affect on me.

If an atheist was murdered because of the athiest's lack of religious affiliation, I'd probaly think the person who murdered the atheist was screwed up in the head to have to murder someone because of what they believe.

joe christian wrote: Immoral abortion laws aren't really laws at all. They are just atheistic and secular methods of extermination.

They might be immoral by your standards. Whether or not they are immoral or not doesn't change the fact that they are laws. Laws are laws, immoral or not. If I believed allowing Christians to practice their faith was immoral, should I stand up and say "Hey, the first amendment isn't really a law... it's just a Christian method to convert the world!" Of course not. I think you should be aware that atheistic/secular doctors do not abort because of religious affiliation but because the Christian woman came and asked for an abortion.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

Ek0nomik wrote: I don't think the majority of doctors performing abortions are atheists. In case you didn't know, most people in the United States are Christian.
Abortion in the US is a secular affair, permitted, condoned and practiced on a secular basis. No abortion clinics are affiliated or associated with any Christian medical institutions. Secularism is atheistic, therefore all US abortionists are atheists and most of their victims are Christian women.

Quote: You should become a paparazzi.

Better than being a feminazi or an abortionazi.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

sgtshortness wrote: Doctors do not go out and seek woman that are religious just to abort their fetuses -- they abort fetuses because the woman asked them to.
Black and white American Christian and Muslim men don't give abortionists any more rights than they give adulterers or other homewreckers.

Quote: Whether or not they are immoral or not doesn't change the fact that they are laws. Laws are laws, immoral or not.
Immoral laws must be disobeyed though.

Quote: I think you should be aware that atheistic/secular doctors do not abort because of religious affiliation but because the Christian woman came and asked for an abortion.
If they were Christian doctors, they wouldn't abort their neighbor's wife without the fully informed consent of both parents.

Only atheists think they can get away with spilling the innocent blood of Christian babies year after year without facing the coming judgement.