Political Crossfire Forums

[Gryff1nd0r]

I was recently watching a show on the history channel about Imam Ayatolla (or something like that, I don't remember)... he was the Islamic leader that took over Iran and was in power during the whole hostage crises during the Carter administration. He was the ultimate Shia religious leader, a very pious man.

It was just a little side note in the show, one of those "interesting fact" bits, and it said that he proclaimed that transsexuality and transgenders were permissible by the Koran.

Maybe it is just me, but that seemed a little strange coming from a culture with such strict gender roles and such an opposition to homosexuality or really any open sexuality of any kind.

[Locke25]

Gryff1nd0r wrote: any open sexuality of any kind.

What are you talking about

[Gryff1nd0r]

Locke25 wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: any open sexuality of any kind.

What are you talking about

Women cover themselves and people are supposed to be extremely modest and reserved sexually.

[Locke25]

Gryff1nd0r wrote: Locke25 wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: any open sexuality of any kind.

What are you talking about

Women cover themselves and people are supposed to be extremely modest and reserved sexually.

You said the whole culture, and I believe you're forgetting half of it. What about men? Are they "reserved" sexually? Ha.

[Gryff1nd0r]

Locke25 wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: Locke25 wrote: Gryff1nd0r wrote: any open sexuality of any kind.

What are you talking about

Women cover themselves and people are supposed to be extremely modest and reserved sexually.

You said the whole culture, and I believe you're forgetting half of it. What about men? Are they "reserved" sexually? Ha.

I think they are supposed to be.

That wasn't the point.

But apparently nobody here has a comment, so whatever.

[pharaoh]

Quote: Maybe it is just me, but that seemed a little strange coming from a culture with such strict gender roles and such an opposition to homosexuality or really any open sexuality of any kind.

Thats true, good remark. But I also feel that you may have an incorrect view on the true nature of gender roles in Islam. So I would really like to know what do you mean by "strict" gender roles?

[Gryff1nd0r]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Maybe it is just me, but that seemed a little strange coming from a culture with such strict gender roles and such an opposition to homosexuality or really any open sexuality of any kind.

Thats true, good remark. But I also feel that you may have an incorrect view on the true nature of gender roles in Islam. So I would really like to know what do you mean by "strict" gender roles?

I'm not an Islam expert, I just know that they are strict about gender roles and sex.

For example, as we discussed in another thread, masterbation is a sin according to the Koran. But surgically changing your genitals to that of the opposite sex is permissable? Strange.

[pharaoh]

Quote: I'm not an Islam expert, I just know that they are strict about gender roles and sex.


Okay you mean just in Iran or in Islam? Cause if you mean Iran then you must know that the Iranians arent really appliying Islam in the right way.

Quote: For example, as we discussed in another thread, masterbation is a sin according to the Koran.

As far as I know there is nothing in the Koran that forbids masturbation. However, alot of the Sheikhs believe that its sinful but again there is no clear text about it in the Koran.
And there is nothing (ofcourse) about sex change.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: As far as I know there is nothing in the Koran that forbids masturbation. However, alot of the Sheikhs believe that its sinful but again there is no clear text about it in the Koran.

What about the Hadith? I've heard this Hadith from the Prophet (pbuh) that says: "La3an Allah masik yadaah" or something to that effect. Also, the sheiks you speak of claim that masturbation is just another form of adultery. Gryff1nd0r
argued that masturbation destroys lust, whereas I argue that you end up losing semen over nothing, and that it weakens your delivery system.

[pharaoh]

Saracen wrote: pharaoh wrote: As far as I know there is nothing in the Koran that forbids masturbation. However, alot of the Sheikhs believe that its sinful but again there is no clear text about it in the Koran.

What about the Hadith? I've heard this Hadith from the Prophet (pbuh) that says: "La3an Allah masik yadaah" or something to that effect. Also, the sheiks you speak of claim that masturbation is just another form of adultery. Gryff1nd0r
argued that masturbation destroys lust, whereas I argue that you end up losing semen over nothing, and that it weakens your delivery system.

Almost every sheikh that I spoke to mentioned a hadith but they differed. Anyway you could be right I dont know...

[Gryff1nd0r]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: I'm not an Islam expert, I just know that they are strict about gender roles and sex.


Okay you mean just in Iran or in Islam? Cause if you mean Iran then you must know that the Iranians arent really appliying Islam in the right way.

No, not just Iran. Islam.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Christianity is also strict about sex (adultery, birth control, homosexuality), and to a much lesser extent, gender roles (women cannot be priests).

And btw, I'm not saying I agree with any of this... I am just highlighting the commonly accepted religious interpretations.

pharaoh wrote: Quote: For example, as we discussed in another thread, masterbation is a sin according to the Koran.

As far as I know there is nothing in the Koran that forbids masturbation. However, alot of the Sheikhs believe that its sinful but again there is no clear text about it in the Koran.
And there is nothing (ofcourse) about sex change.

It doesn't "forbid" masterbation, and neither does the Bible. It is interpretations of different passages that lead people to arrive at that conclusion. It could be seen as lust (even though I disagree with that premise) or simply as defying God's wishes of what sex be used for.

[pharaoh]

Quote: No, not just Iran. Islam.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Christianity is also strict about sex (adultery, birth control, homosexuality), and to a much lesser extent, gender roles (women cannot be priests).

And btw, I'm not saying I agree with any of this... I am just highlighting the commonly accepted religious interpretations.



Well in that case let me tell you that in Islam a women can work, has the right to be educated, vote..etc...
However, she needs to obey her husband and her primary role is to raise the children, if she cant raise the children and work at the same time then she must quit work.
So as you see, there isnt really any strict gender roles cause women can do whatever things men do but her main "job" is to raise the children and she must also obey her husband.
You may find that anti feminism but really that is the only way for a stable family which leads to a stable and powerful community.

[Gryff1nd0r]

pharaoh wrote:


So as you see, there isnt really any strict gender roles cause women can do whatever things men do but her main "job" is to raise the children and she must also obey her husband.
You may find that anti feminism but really that is the only way for a stable family which leads to a stable and powerful community.

:evil: We aren't talking about that, so I'm not going to take the bait. It's another thread, and I plan to start it.

But for now, let me just say that the point of this thread was a question about the Islamic view on transsexuality (which I was just curious about after watching a show, it really doesn't matter to me that much). And still, nobody seems to have any thoguhts on it :-| .

Whatever. Let me get to work on that other thread though.

[Gilbert1908]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: No, not just Iran. Islam.

I'm not saying that it is bad. Christianity is also strict about sex (adultery, birth control, homosexuality), and to a much lesser extent, gender roles (women cannot be priests).

And btw, I'm not saying I agree with any of this... I am just highlighting the commonly accepted religious interpretations.



Well in that case let me tell you that in Islam a women can work, has the right to be educated, vote..etc...
However, she needs to obey her husband and her primary role is to raise the children, if she cant raise the children and work at the same time then she must quit work.
So as you see, there isnt really any strict gender roles cause women can do whatever things men do but her main "job" is to raise the children and she must also obey her husband.
You may find that anti feminism but really that is the only way for a stable family which leads to a stable and powerful community.

If I may, Christianity has a very similar belief. It has been eroded in the west over time by secular misunderstanding of the word "service" within Christianity. Assuming to service or to serve is subservient when indeed when done in faith, it is honoring God.

There is no question that while the "women's movement" in the US had good intentions in terms of equality of pay and equal rights under the law, its leaders also had no moral compass with regard to the reality of promoting traditional male roles as the goal of women as opposed to recognizing and honoring the very real and essential role women have in every society, which to put it simply is the civilization(verb) of the male. The indisputable natural differences between men and women are no less critical to the "environment" than clean air and clean water. The pollution of those relationships based upon the oppression of women by men or the ambition of women to be more male creates a fatal imbalance.

If understood properly and in the context of faith I believe Islam and Christianity recognize and address that potential imbalance and direct men and women toward avoiding that imbalance.

The result in the west is the continual and progressive disintegration of the family and subsequent decay in a significant portion of our culture and society.

It is this decadence that many Muslims are rightfully afraid of spreading to their cultures. I don't think Muslims are, or should be, afraid of Christianity. Most Muslim IMO are like Christians in that we are afraid of absence of God within societies that replace Him with the worship of the self, society itself or some other superficial gratification.

[Gryff1nd0r]

Gilbert1908 wrote:


which to put it simply is the civilization(verb) of the male.

Modern civilization, which for the most part is where it is because men have taken it this far, is at a point where it not only enables women to take on a very different role in society, but it flat out demands it. Without it, we would regress, not progress.

In countries where women are secondary citizens and males are born with a sense of control and entitlement, the country falls behind compared to todays modern civilizations.

In countries where equality and empowerment in women is encouraged and facilitated, there is econimic and political progress.

Gilbert1908 wrote: The indisputable natural differences between men and women are no less critical to the "environment" than clean air and clean water. The pollution of those relationships based upon the oppression of women by men or the ambition of women to be more male creates a fatal imbalance.

The "indisputable" differences are not as plentiful as you would like. However, there is a plethora of extremely disputable differences.

Gilbert1908 wrote: The result in the west is the continual and progressive disintegration of the family and subsequent decay in a significant portion of our culture and society.

Nonsense. Don't blame "decay" on the feminist movement, its just nonsense. Perhaps adjustments need to be made by men and women to maintain relationships and families, but we need to move forward and not backward. Change is good, and change is neccessary in today's world. To wish for the "good old Leave-It-To-Beaver-Family days" is pointless, because we should not and will not go there.

[pharaoh]

Quote: And still, nobody seems to have any thoguhts on it .


Well in the end its a matter of opinion. You see, people didnt change their sex until the 20th century. Thats a new thing, you cant expect to find a clear answer about this in the Koran or any other holy book IMO.

Quote: If I may, Christianity has a very similar belief. It has been eroded in the west over time by secular misunderstanding of the word "service" within Christianity. Assuming to service or to serve is subservient when indeed when done in faith, it is honoring God.


....Okay

Quote: There is no question that while the "women's movement" in the US had good intentions in terms of equality of pay and equal rights under the law, its leaders also had no moral compass with regard to the reality of promoting traditional male roles as the goal of women as opposed to recognizing and honoring the very real and essential role women have in every society, which to put it simply is the civilization(verb) of the male. The indisputable natural differences between men and women are no less critical to the "environment" than clean air and clean water. The pollution of those relationships based upon the oppression of women by men or the ambition of women to be more male creates a fatal imbalance.

If understood properly and in the context of faith I believe Islam and Christianity recognize and address that potential imbalance and direct men and women toward avoiding that imbalance.

The result in the west is the continual and progressive disintegration of the family and subsequent decay in a significant portion of our culture and society.

It is this decadence that many Muslims are rightfully afraid of spreading to their cultures. I don't think Muslims are, or should be, afraid of Christianity. Most Muslim IMO are like Christians in that we are afraid of absence of God within societies that replace Him with the worship of the self, society itself or some other superficial gratification.




wow...just wow....I am amazed by your logical and clear thinking...Nice.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: And still, nobody seems to have any thoguhts on it .


Well in the end its a matter of opinion. You see, people didnt change their sex until the 20th century. Thats a new thing, you cant expect to find a clear answer about this in the Koran or any other holy book IMO.

Quote: If I may, Christianity has a very similar belief. It has been eroded in the west over time by secular misunderstanding of the word "service" within Christianity. Assuming to service or to serve is subservient when indeed when done in faith, it is honoring God.


....Okay

Quote: There is no question that while the "women's movement" in the US had good intentions in terms of equality of pay and equal rights under the law, its leaders also had no moral compass with regard to the reality of promoting traditional male roles as the goal of women as opposed to recognizing and honoring the very real and essential role women have in every society, which to put it simply is the civilization(verb) of the male. The indisputable natural differences between men and women are no less critical to the "environment" than clean air and clean water. The pollution of those relationships based upon the oppression of women by men or the ambition of women to be more male creates a fatal imbalance.

If understood properly and in the context of faith I believe Islam and Christianity recognize and address that potential imbalance and direct men and women toward avoiding that imbalance.

The result in the west is the continual and progressive disintegration of the family and subsequent decay in a significant portion of our culture and society.

It is this decadence that many Muslims are rightfully afraid of spreading to their cultures. I don't think Muslims are, or should be, afraid of Christianity. Most Muslim IMO are like Christians in that we are afraid of absence of God within societies that replace Him with the worship of the self, society itself or some other superficial gratification.




wow...just wow....I am amazed by your logical and clear thinking...Nice.

I was going to say the same thing. Good to see you here, Gilbert1908.

[pharaoh]

Yeah, he is damn good.

[Gryff1nd0r]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: And still, nobody seems to have any thoguhts on it .


Well in the end its a matter of opinion. You see, people didnt change their sex until the 20th century. Thats a new thing, you cant expect to find a clear answer about this in the Koran or any other holy book IMO.



I suppose not.

[Kt]

Gryff1nd0r wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:


which to put it simply is the civilization(verb) of the male.

Modern civilization, which for the most part is where it is because men have taken it this far, is at a point where it not only enables women to take on a very different role in society, but it flat out demands it. Without it, we would regress, not progress.

In countries where women are secondary citizens and males are born with a sense of control and entitlement, the country falls behind compared to todays modern civilizations.

In countries where equality and empowerment in women is encouraged and facilitated, there is econimic and political progress.

So you're just going to put your children into daycare with a total stranger you don't even know or trust? How do you know the stranger doesn't molest children?
I think it is shortsighted for you to think that a woman with children should put career before their own flesh and blood.
If you want to build a world where children have no parents and are raised by strangers who molest them than be my guest, but it will quickly fall to degradation. And all because of the "feminist" movement.
Quote: Gilbert1908 wrote: The indisputable natural differences between men and women are no less critical to the "environment" than clean air and clean water. The pollution of those relationships based upon the oppression of women by men or the ambition of women to be more male creates a fatal imbalance.

The "indisputable" differences are not as plentiful as you would like. However, there is a plethora of extremely disputable differences.

Gilbert1908 wrote: The result in the west is the continual and progressive disintegration of the family and subsequent decay in a significant portion of our culture and society.

Nonsense. Don't blame "decay" on the feminist movement, its just nonsense. Perhaps adjustments need to be made by men and women to maintain relationships and families, but we need to move forward and not backward. Change is good, and change is neccessary in today's world. To wish for the "good old Leave-It-To-Beaver-Family days" is pointless, because we should not and will not go there.
Perhaps you should get back into the kitchen for a change, and your kids wouldn't have to eat fast food and get so damn fat. This is another problem with american "feminist" culture, replacing a good meal with fast food.