Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

If everyone has read it then they should know what the inevitable result of people trying to create their ideas about a perfect place for them to live.

Just look at some of the ideas expressed in this thread. One for autocratic rule with themselves as the ruler and another the mass murder of 99% of the people who ever lived.

Utopia is the Greek word for nowhere. For good reason.

[Jay2014]

cap'n queasy wrote: If everyone has read it then they should know what the inevitable result of people trying to create their ideas about a perfect place for them to live.

Just look at some of the ideas expressed in this thread. One for autocratic rule with themselves as the ruler and another the mass murder of 99% of the people who ever lived.

Utopia is the Greek word for nowhere. For good reason.

just to poin out a common misconception,utopia comes from outopia, the greek word for "nowhere", and eutopia, the greek word for "good place"

[John Wilkes Booth]

cap'n queasy wrote: If everyone has read it then they should know what the inevitable result of people trying to create their ideas about a perfect place for them to live.

Just look at some of the ideas expressed in this thread. One for autocratic rule with themselves as the ruler and another the mass murder of 99% of the people who ever lived.

Utopia is the Greek word for nowhere. For good reason.

The worst thing about those crazy idealist utopians is how they're always going on and on about how to "form a more perfect union." Jeez, leave well enough alone.

[PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd]

If we lived in a utopia we would have nothing to worry about because we aould already be dead and in heaven

[Johannes]

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: If we lived in a utopia we would have nothing to worry about because we aould already be dead and in heaven

Heaven is up to interpretation. One man's heaven certaintly can't be everyone's. But, that's a whole other issue.

[forthegreatergood]

fakeplasticpayden wrote: i really dont think a utopia can exist, i mean think if everyone was honest, think if everyone was honest, well then you have a whole new level of hate, everyone will tell everyone exactly what they think of them.

A Utopia can exist. Think about this. Think if we were all telepathic, able to read each others thoughts. If I was to come up with a thought such as "I am going to hurt you" You would read that thought and you could react. And say HEY, DON'T HURT ME, HERE'S WHY.. or you could protect yourself....Problems would be solved that way.

[PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd]

Johannes wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: If we lived in a utopia we would have nothing to worry about because we aould already be dead and in heaven

Heaven is up to interpretation. One man's heaven certaintly can't be everyone's. But, that's a whole other issue.

I know what you mean, but could you go into that for me i think it would be interesting to hear.

[Johannes]

PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: Johannes wrote: PhIlOsOpHiCaL MiNd wrote: If we lived in a utopia we would have nothing to worry about because we aould already be dead and in heaven

Heaven is up to interpretation. One man's heaven certaintly can't be everyone's. But, that's a whole other issue.

I know what you mean, but could you go into that for me i think it would be interesting to hear.

Biblically, heaven is a place safeguarded by angels for souls of those who have lived a righteous and faithful life on earth. They are rewarded by...well the Bible is terribly vague, but a paradise.

However, heaven today has been misconstrewn or altered to fit many people's perspectives. It seems that many people believe that heaven is a place where you get anything that you once desired on earth, but never recieved. It is a place where you can do anything you want, even the most terrible, because it's what you didn't do on earth.

If men share this heaven, it would be more unruly than earth. It would be more violent than the worst of wars, and more greedy than the worst binges of corruption.

[greeneye]

Gaius wrote: Utopianist theory?

Utopian theory.....? Utopian society....? Atlantis maybe...?

Yes, yes, I know this is considered to be in the realm of the "ancient mythical." Nevertheless... I think this now debatable.

[NeedsREALfreedom]

Utopian ideas are very dangerous. Some people would argue that Nazism wasn't responsible for the holocaust, Hitler was. Some people would argue that communism wasn't responsible for the GULAGS, Stalin was. But, there is a very good reason to blame the principals of communism and fascism for the Millions of deaths under their regime: they are both Utopian ideas.

A "Utopian Revolution" is based on the absurd notion that humans can defy their own nature. All people could live in love and harmony with each other, greed will disappear, no more war, no more crime, everyone will be a productive and well adjusted member of society. Ya, sure.... :tu:

With this perfect civilization in their minds, who wouldn't pursue it? If you could live in a blissful unity with you fellow man, would you fight for it? Would you cross difficult barriers, do things you would never otherwise do, to achieve it? Would any means be too brutal, too extreme on your path to these glorious ends? Would anyone standing in your way be evil, deserving of death? After all, we are talking about achieving universal happiness. So, why would it matter how you got there when every good, honest person will profit from this great transition, those greedy opposers to progress will e delivered to justice.

Utopia is impossible because it goes against our desires as mankind. The pursuit of Utopia has always, and will always, end in senseless tragedy.

[greeneye]

NeedsREALfreedom wrote: Utopia is impossible because it goes against our desires as mankind.

I think mankind is on an evolutionary cycle... if we look at recorded history, we can clearly see that man has evolved in a number of ways. I.E. centuries ago people were burned in public for believing something different from the "established" religion of the day.

We keep evolving with each generation. This is good. :wink:

In our current stage of evolution (civilization), it may seem impossible for man to contemplate living in a perfect society on earth because some men continue to desire to hate, live in fear, lie, steal, etc. etc.

However, I don't think Utopia is impossible within a civilization that is evolved enough and chooses to live without hatred, greed, lust, anger, fear and so on.

Is that possible on earth... in a world that Shakespeare calls:

Quote: All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts

Perhaps.... the soul of man (civilization) is still evolving...

[NeedsREALfreedom]

greeneye wrote: I think mankind is on an evolutionary cycle... if we look at recorded history, we can clearly see that man has evolved in a number of ways. I.E. centuries ago people were burned in public for believing something different from the "established" religion of the day.

We have evolved. Centuries ago people were burned for there believes. Now, they are dragged from their homes and shot in the head or butchered with a machete. Don't forget that you are very lucky to live were you live.

greeneye wrote: However, I don't think Utopia is impossible within a civilization that is evolved enough and chooses to live without hatred, greed, lust, anger, fear and so on.

All of these emotions are NEVER going to go away. We evolved with them in order to survive. Some people are **** and no amount of "political re-education" or "social engineering" will ever change that. Suppose for and instant it could, what do you do with the "defects" that feel human emotion and will not conform to this society, do you imprison or kill them?

We would all like to think that love, compassion and charity are great motives for life, but they are not. Hatred, greed, lust, anger, and fear are the reason we pay our bills or arrive at work on time or don't walk into a bank with a shotgun and tell them to give us the money.

These emotions cannot be abandoned by people because they are just as important to the human condition as anything.

[greeneye]

NeedsREALfreedom wrote: These emotions cannot be abandoned by people because they are just as important to the human condition as anything.

Yes, they are.

I believe, however, that human conditions test the soul and help man evolve to a higher state of being. But it's all choice. Some people choose to go to higher ground after wrestling with human conditions, while some choose to stay in the drenches of human thought.

When enough people move to higher ground, over a long period of time, centuries perhaps, this is when we may see signs of a better earthly world.

In civilized countries, (especially where the rule of law presides) one can see that man has evolved in thought and consciousness over the last 100 years.

I think this is positive.

[NeedsREALfreedom]

greeneye wrote: In civilized countries, (especially where the rule of law presides) one can see that man has evolved in thought and consciousness over the last 100 years.

I think this is positive.

And greater still is the potential(inevitability) to send mankind back to the stone age. I think that this is a far more likely outcome of our "advancement".

[greeneye]

NeedsREALfreedom wrote: greeneye wrote: In civilized countries, (especially where the rule of law presides) one can see that man has evolved in thought and consciousness over the last 100 years.

I think this is positive.

And greater still is the potential(inevitability) to send mankind back to the stone age. I think that this is a far more likely outcome of our "advancement".

On this I would disagree. The free will of man (society in general) will determine how progressive and forwarded moving civilization will move. Your view is a negative one. My view is a bit more positive.

What essentially matters is that we become part of the solution to our challenges but not a passive observer or contributor to the human conditions that feed hate, greed anger, and so on.

Life is a great opportunity. A tremendously great opportunity despite the human condition ...

[John Wilkes Booth]

Ok, I'll be more blunt: the founding fathers were utopians.

[LostSoul3412]

In order for a utopia to truly exist, the individual must develop a duality, and live by they duality. The individual must understand that they are their own person, but they are also part of something greater, something that we are all bound to together: humanity. Regardless of your opinions or beliefs, we are all members of the human race, and it is up to us, as members of the human race, to work together towards progress. In doing so, however, we cannot forget that we are also individuals, and our individual freedoms cannot be trampled upon by government, society, religion, or any other means of oppression.

I understand the paradox of my statement, but I stand by it none the less. I will use myself as an example for my claims. I am an individual. I follow my own faith, I live by my own set of morals, and I follow the path I have chosen. At the same time, I understand a connection to my fellow man/woman, and work to benefit humanity as a whole. It is up to each individual to make the world a better place, just as it is up to each individual to be true to themselves. As long as we are quoting Shakespeare, I will give one of my favorite quotes from my favorite writer.

William Shakespeare wrote: "To thine own self be true."

Be true to your own person, and be true to your own people. Then a utopia can exist, and then humanity will be truly free.

[greeneye]

John Wilkes Booth wrote: Ok, I'll be more blunt: the founding fathers were utopians.

Absolutely! And many of them were indeed ahead of their times as well.

I think every decade over the last few centuries has ushered in people of great strength, leadership, courage and Utopian ideals. And it is their influence on society that has helped raise the standards of civilization gradually but surely.

Then again, in talking about Utopian ideals and how seemingly impossible it may seem for some on earth to realize such a state of being.... it's not really the "human condition" that keeps a Utopian society from flourishing... it's man's inability to deal with the the "human condition" (hate, greed, lust, anger, etc.) that prevents a Utopia from existing.

Human conditions we will always have. However, once man learns to take full responsibility and accountability for his/her actions... then I believe global change will take place.

Until then we continue to grow and learn with each passing day.

[NeedsREALfreedom]

John Wilkes Booth wrote: Ok, I'll be more blunt: the founding fathers were utopians.

The hell they were!

They had the hardest time keeping thirteen states together, there was political strife from the beginning, extreme compromise was made on issues like slavery, taxation and state's rights to keep the fragile nation from crumbling. We were given the right to bare arms a form militias because they knew things were not to go smoothly.

The whole idea of our nation had nothing to do with some great society of peace, prosperity and unity for all, our nation was founded on the idea that people should be allowed to live as they choose and have the freedom to do the best they can.

[AllAmericanMan]

Where there is a will there is a way. Humans can be pretty smart if we really wanted a utopian society we could have one.