Political Crossfire Forums

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

I'm sorry that you cant trust human kindness anymore. You have my sympathy though, yes, I know I can never understand entirely.
Yet my beliefs are my beliefs. I have expressed my side as you have your view. Good luck.

hill0118 · Joined: 17 Dec 2005 Posts: 449 Location: Dayton, Ohio

What about the welfare state? The vast majority of children put under state care are never adopted or go years without being adopted.

They become shuffled through the system, wards of the state.

Is that really what we want to put children through? I think that it is cruel to place a child in an environment where the child will recieve unloving, uncaring upbringing by a state adoption agency. Especially considering that numerous adoption agencies around the country are underfunded and many states do not have permanent foster homes to place children in. So they end up living for months at a time in state and city child services offices.

And in regards to fetuses that show signs of retardation... It is very different (in my own opinion at least) to kill a defective embryo than to kill a person. For one thing, an embryo has very little emotional attachment to anyone, and nobody has any emotional attachment to an embryo. Second, embryos are disposable, and those that are defective get flushed out of the body. So if the embryo is defective and by chance hasn't been flushed out of the body, are we not doing what would have been done had the bodily mechanism worked correctly?

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

I can't say all adoptions turn out bad except I don't know my cousin who's adopted at all to make a judgment. On foster care homes I would be speculating on my father. I was a product of abuse from a babysitting situation. My mom was single I just couln't handle the responsiblity. I didn't want to be a welfare mother. I really didn't want a kid that blamed me as an adult (like my father) for his abuse. From his adoptive parents.

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

hill0118 wrote: What about the welfare state? The vast majority of children put under state care are never adopted or go years without being adopted.

They become shuffled through the system, wards of the state.

Is that really what we want to put children through? I think that it is cruel to place a child in an environment where the child will recieve unloving, uncaring upbringing by a state adoption agency. Especially considering that numerous adoption agencies around the country are underfunded and many states do not have permanent foster homes to place children in. So they end up living for months at a time in state and city child services offices.

And in regards to fetuses that show signs of retardation... It is very different (in my own opinion at least) to kill a defective embryo than to kill a person. For one thing, an embryo has very little emotional attachment to anyone, and nobody has any emotional attachment to an embryo. Second, embryos are disposable, and those that are defective get flushed out of the body. So if the embryo is defective and by chance hasn't been flushed out of the body, are we not doing what would have been done had the bodily mechanism worked correctly?

You're right. We should just gas all the kids in foster homes and ones waiting for adoption. Yes, I just used sarcasm.

I also suppose that if we can determine homosexual children early, we should also "Flush" them out as defective as well?

As for embryos, they are only cared about by those that want them such as an expectant mother.

My belief is that, from conception, the unborn is alive. I wouldn't condone the murder of mentally challenged no matter what age.

The putting up for an adoption may be hard on the child, however it is the best choice to make up for a mistake. Putting a child through the system came because of a bad choice of the mother who probably wasn't looking out for the best intrest of the child by way of its production. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

I'm sorry for being so sorry and nice to you. I don't believe children should be gassed nor do I believe that partial birth abortions are nessary unless the woman is at risk. A woman being at risk in a life or death situation. I would say as mentioned in an earlier post do the same to a dog to puppies.
I believe it was an arguement of a conservative such as yourself and I have nothing against a conservative aproach to abortion. Abortion as I have said I had one. It is not something if you have had one that you would want to do again. And again. As said in other arguements as a form of birth control.
I believe that is a farse. Depending on what state you live in birth control may not be available the state that I was located in was a Republican state and did
not have Planned Parenthood. If you MUST know. So you conservatives can kiss my touch. Planned parenthood provides free condoms to the community if you didn't know.

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

but all rights make it right ? Right?

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

Alula,

Please understand that in my last post I quoted hill0118. I was responding to his post not yours.

I'm not against you at all. As I said before, I sympathise with you but, in hind sight, must say they were the wrong actions.

On Planned Parenthood, I believe it to be the work of the devil right back to its founding. And the fact that they hand out condoms helps not my view of them for I don't see condoms as an answer to the problem.

Sincerly,
The Mean ol' conservative

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

hobobahk wrote: having gone through the procedure could you tell us if the first trimester should be enough time for a woman to make a reasonable desicion responsibly? If it merely is an unwanted pregnancy, perhaps. But then you run into issues such as teens ignorant of sex or some ramifications thereoff, who don't know they are pregnant until 15 weeks or so. And the problem with many birth defects is that they aren't discovered until the ultrasound at 18-21 weeks.

So while 12 weeks sounds neat and ordered, reality is rather more complicated.

That is why this really is a medical decision rather than a political one, and politics should butt out, and should have no more say than in whether people have chemotherapy, radiation or no treatment for tumors, f.ex. Physicians are trained and know their stuff, politicians and emotionally overwrought pro-lifers really don't have a clue about the reality of the situation.

That is the problem with Roe vs Wade. It and state regulations that single out abortions should never have been there to begin with. It is a medical decision.

Now, if pro-lifers don't like the number of abortions that take place, they can start supporting scientific sex-ed instead of opposing it. They can start supporting contraception instead of opposing it. And they can start supporting assistance to pregnant women and new mothers instead of opposing it.

THAT really is where the problem with the number of abortions lie. In Europe where the above have been implemented long time ago, the abortion rate is MUCH, MUCH lower.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: Thank you for clarifying your reason. Yet I am still not convinced. The baby was alive in you. That is my belief. Whether or not he would have been mentally challenged makes no difference. I would not kill a unborn disabled any sooner than I would kill your father. Your beliefs have little relevance in other people's real lives.

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

Do you as conservative as you are still believe that mental illness is caused by demons?

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

Alula wrote: Do you as conservative as you are still believe that mental illness is caused by demons?

Some that are labeled as mental illnesses, yes, I do; however not all are caused by spirits in my opinion. It depends on the situation and the symptoms. But that is for another thread another time.

And now to answer steen:
Ah, steen,
Your beliefs have an active role in others lives as well. Unless you don't believe anything. Which is hard to believe (pun intended).

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

I'm sure the good people of South Dakota are ready and willing to cast the demons out. With the help of the local Social Services department.

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

Alot of people just can't take care of kids and its the best thing. I'm sorry I couldn't have the baby. For somebody else to have it and abuse it. Okay.

feederband · Joined: 26 Jan 2006 Posts: 4156 Location: Florida

Alula wrote: Alot of people just can't take care of kids and its the best thing. I'm sorry I couldn't have the baby. For somebody else to have it and abuse it. Okay.

I'm for abortions in most cases....Yours is not one of them...I would have took this baby and would not abused it...And I know there is alot of people out there like me...You made your decision I don't believe it was the right one..

Alula · Joined: 17 May 2005 Posts: 517

Could I have depended on you to be there for me seven years ago. When I was living in the middle of nowhere dependant on anothers home to live in
where an unmarried mother would not have been welcome. When a person finds themselves three months pregnant and on their own. Nineteen who's had nothing but abuse from men and the man who got her pregnant was nobody. You don't have a very good outlook on the whole male race.
Trust issues are a huge factor in my desision you don't think I should have.
Well it wasn't up to you. I didn't want a baby in my body I didn't want it.
At all. You don't know at all who your dealing with. I felt nothing nor did I think that the child had to be cared for by people. People say all the time they would be perfect parents I would except him and do everything to understand any desicion that he would make. Yet you don't understand a word I say.
You people say you except this and you except everything and all things.
You can't except the fact that my child is better off dead than with strangers.
That is what this world has taught me.

havoc33 · Joined: 27 Apr 2006 Posts: 253 Location: Indiana

Wouldn't a true conservative decry the government's attempt to tell an individual what to do with their own body?

mattwa33193 · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 904 Location: Miami

havoc33 wrote: Wouldn't a true conservative decry the government's attempt to tell an individual what to do with their own body?

Of course they would, but true conservatives are few and far between. The so-called conservatives that have taken their place try to maintain the illusion that they are for individual rights by attempting to gift those rights upon the fetus, saying in effect that potential is no different from fact. This way, they can interfere in the lives of others while telling themselves they are not.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: Your beliefs have little relevance in other people's real lives apparently they do in the context of SD

islandhopper · Joined: 16 May 2006 Posts: 364 Location: 10,000 Islands

Let a woman live with her own decision and provide her a safe and accessible means by which to do it (and this includes any decisioin be it abortion, adoption or otherwise). And while we're at it, let's develop a non-misogynistic society where women and girls are respected, have access to birth control and are not raped.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Quote: Your beliefs have little relevance in other people's real lives apparently they do in the context of SD Prove it. The extreemists in the legislature tried to block a public referendum on their bill. Even pro-life groups and conservatives don't like it. And the signatures to put it on the ballot are streaming in. Not even in SD are your beliefs of relevance.