Political Crossfire Forums

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Christian cultures spawned Christian/national socialism, which were sick, and corrupted versions of the original religion and tried to make everyone different through the state , Buddhist culture spawned Pol Pot and his economic year zero tried to make everyone different through the state, now we see the same apocalyptic trend in Islam. It's not suprising, it certainly doesn't include every Muslim anymore than Christian socialism did every Christian. So we shouldn't be scared of criticizing it for what it is: a horrible, corrupt totalitarian ideology.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16721 Location: On Earth

Reason wrote: Christian cultures spawned Christian/national socialism, which were sick, and corrupted versions of the original religion and tried to make everyone different through the state , Buddhist culture spawned Pol Pot and his economic year zero tried to make everyone different through the state, now we see the same apocalyptic trend in Islam. It's not suprising, it certainly doesn't include every Muslim anymore than Christian socialism did every Christian. So we shouldn't be scared of criticizing it for what it is: a horrible, corrupt totalitarian ideology.

Well, Hizb ut Tahrir has its downs indeed. They are a bunch of radicals and yes, are worthy of every criticism needed. However, I tend to focus on their positive aspects, such as their condemnations of the protests in London during the cartoon controversy (what a sham). All the while, they actually condemned the burning of embassies and the writings on the placards of the protesters. It was rumored that Hizb ut Tahrir were behind the placards, but it turned out that they were against the messages of the placards in the first place. Bottom line: extremists need to take a hike. We don't have a place for them in present society: no matter what good they bring, there will always be a negative aspect towards them... and then you have Hamas, which is a different story altogether. Hizb ut Tahrir is global, while Hamas is... not.

pharaoh

Reason wrote: Christian cultures spawned Christian/national socialism, which were sick, and corrupted versions of the original religion and tried to make everyone different through the state , Buddhist culture spawned Pol Pot and his economic year zero tried to make everyone different through the state, now we see the same apocalyptic trend in Islam. It's not suprising, it certainly doesn't include every Muslim anymore than Christian socialism did every Christian. So we shouldn't be scared of criticizing it for what it is: a horrible, corrupt totalitarian ideology.

Ah...and what is this horrible Hizb el tahrir??

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16721 Location: On Earth

pharaoh wrote: Reason wrote: Christian cultures spawned Christian/national socialism, which were sick, and corrupted versions of the original religion and tried to make everyone different through the state , Buddhist culture spawned Pol Pot and his economic year zero tried to make everyone different through the state, now we see the same apocalyptic trend in Islam. It's not suprising, it certainly doesn't include every Muslim anymore than Christian socialism did every Christian. So we shouldn't be scared of criticizing it for what it is: a horrible, corrupt totalitarian ideology.

Ah...and what is this horrible Hizb el tahrir??

I think he's talking about this group. This is different from the Munazzamatul-Tahrir, which is a peaceful Palestinian resistance group whose leaders I got a chance to meet.

pharaoh

Saracen wrote: pharaoh wrote: Reason wrote: Christian cultures spawned Christian/national socialism, which were sick, and corrupted versions of the original religion and tried to make everyone different through the state , Buddhist culture spawned Pol Pot and his economic year zero tried to make everyone different through the state, now we see the same apocalyptic trend in Islam. It's not suprising, it certainly doesn't include every Muslim anymore than Christian socialism did every Christian. So we shouldn't be scared of criticizing it for what it is: a horrible, corrupt totalitarian ideology.

Ah...and what is this horrible Hizb el tahrir??

I think he's talking about this group. This is different from the Munazzamatul-Tahrir, which is a peaceful Palestinian resistance group whose leaders I got a chance to meet.

I took a look at their Aims. I didnt find anything "horrible" or "corrupt". I could be wrong though. Could you plz helpme out Reason?
And...how many members are registered in this Party?
Thanks...

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: I took a look at their Aims. I didnt find anything "horrible" or "corrupt". I could be wrong though. Could you plz helpme out Reason?

Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3182271.stm

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:03 am Post subject:

Reason wrote: Quote: I took a look at their Aims. I didnt find anything "horrible" or "corrupt". I could be wrong though. Could you plz helpme out Reason?

Read this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3182271.stm

The link says that their site promotes terrorism and racism and anti semetism.
Oh well, I took a look at their site (more precisly the reasons why this party is created) and there werent any such thing.
here take a look yourself:
http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.org/english/english.html

Oh and why are we talking about a very small party that is even banned in many countries humm??

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Oh and why are we talking about a very small party that is even banned in many countries humm??

Because I'm a British student, and it's relevant to British universities so I was interested in it, and posted it - you replied of your own free will so I don't know why you're talking about it.

Quote: Oh well, I took a look at their site (more precisly the reasons why this party is created) and there werent any such thing.
here take a look yourself:

They were estabilished to create Islamic rule under strict Sharia law over the whole world, basically Islamic totalitarianism which like all forms of totalitarianism is bad.

pharaoh · Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject:

Quote: Because I'm a British student, and it's relevant to British universities so I was interested in it, and posted it - you replied of your own free will so I don't know why you're talking about it.

Its just that I got the impression from your openning post that you are talking about something like the KKK and it turned out to be something very small and not that extreme

Quote: They were estabilished to create Islamic rule under strict Sharia law over the whole world, basically Islamic totalitarianism which like all forms of totalitarianism is bad.

Ok maybe I missed it. Where do they say, in their site, that they want to impose the Sharia law over "the whole world" and not just countries where the huge majority is muslim??

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16721 Location: On Earth

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Because I'm a British student, and it's relevant to British universities so I was interested in it, and posted it - you replied of your own free will so I don't know why you're talking about it.

Its just that I got the impression from your openning post that you are talking about something like the KKK and it turned out to be something very small and not that extreme

Quote: They were estabilished to create Islamic rule under strict Sharia law over the whole world, basically Islamic totalitarianism which like all forms of totalitarianism is bad.

Ok maybe I missed it. Where do they say, in their site, that they want to impose the Sharia law over "the whole world" and not just countries where the huge majority is muslim??

I doubt they say anything about a global conspiracy as part of their plan. I keep hearing that they're a radical fundamentalist group whose aims are to establish a "New Caliphate", according to some sources. Personally, I don't know much about these guys, but so far, they have yet to kill someone or commit a violent act. In fact, as I mentioned before, they condemned the protests against the cartoons that were violent.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
I doubt they say anything about a global conspiracy as part of their plan. I keep hearing that they're a radical fundamentalist group whose aims are to establish a "New Caliphate", according to some sources. Personally, I don't know much about these guys, but so far, they have yet to kill someone or commit a violent act. In fact, as I mentioned before, they condemned the protests against the cartoons that were violent.

One of their members was hired onto a mainstream British newspaper and just after the July bombings wrote that the British should expect to be bombed, it's just the Muslim population expressing themselves and being 'sassy'.

The group work much like Troskyists used to - via entryism. They claim to be totally non-violent but think that homoseuxals should be stoned. THey are in effect the internatioanl version of the Muslim Brotherhood ideology (who they hate just liek the Trots hated the Stalinists).
Quote:
In fact, as I mentioned before, they condemned the protests against the cartoons that were violent.

Yet still thought that the Danish newspapers should be banned.

Here is what a British Muslim leader said: ANONYMOUS MUSLIM LEADER:
I believe that if Hizb Ut Tahrir are not stopped at this stage, and we continue to let them politicise and pollute the youngsters minds and other gullible people minds, then what will happen in effect is that these terrorism acts and these suicide bombings that we hear going on around in foreign countries, we will actually start seeing these incidents happening outside our doorsteps.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3182271.stm

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16721 Location: On Earth

Reason, seriously, I do not see a serious threat with that group. I've never heard of them before, and I'm pretty sure pharaoh has either... :-|

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Reason, seriously, I do not see a serious threat with that group. I've never heard of them before, and I'm pretty sure pharaoh has either..

They are quite concentrated in Britain, especially (perhaps suprisingly) amongst the edcuated elite of the Muslim population. It's the political Islam equivalent of Trotskyism to the Muslim Brotherhood's Stalinism. It's much more international, claims to be against violence, and tends to attract pretty intelligent people.

It's no big worry, unless one listens to the BBC, but just another piece of the ideological jigsaw. It's interesting because it's possibly the first form of global poltiical Islam, and the Western influence is obvious - the worst of the West. The totalitarian ideologies that shaped the last century in Europe have mutated into ones that can operate more easily from within a Muslim tradition.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16721 Location: On Earth

Reason wrote: Quote: Reason, seriously, I do not see a serious threat with that group. I've never heard of them before, and I'm pretty sure pharaoh has either..

They are quite concentrated in Britain, especially (perhaps suprisingly) amongst the edcuated elite of the Muslim population. It's the political Islam equivalent of Trotskyism to the Muslim Brotherhood's Stalinism. It's much more international, claims to be against violence, and tends to attract pretty intelligent people.

Ok. Will you show me some quotes from their manifesto?