Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.



Zachariah 12
10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.


Psalms 22
1 My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
2O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
3 Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
4In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
5To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
6But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
7 All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
8"Commit yourself to the LORD; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him."
9Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother's breasts.
10Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother's womb.
11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
13They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
16For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
17I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
18They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
19But You, O LORD, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
20Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
21Save me from the lion's mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
22I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the LORD, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel.
24For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
25From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
26The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the LORD
Let your heart live forever!
27All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
30 Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to (BI)the coming generation.
31They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Isaiah 50
2"Why was there no man when I came?
When I called, why was there none to answer?
Is My hand so short that it cannot ransom?
Or have I no power to deliver?
Behold, I dry up the sea with My rebuke,
I make the rivers a wilderness;
Their fish stink for lack of water
And die of thirst.
3"I clothe the heavens with blackness
And make sackcloth their covering."
4 The Lord GOD has given Me the tongue of disciples,
That I may know how tosustain the weary one with a word
He awakens Me morning by morning,
He awakens My ear to listen as a disciple.
5 The Lord GOD has opened My ear;
And I was not disobedient
Nor did I turn back.
6 I gave My back to those who strike Me,
And My cheeks to those who pluck out the beard;
I did not cover My face from humiliation and spitting.
7 For the Lord GOD helps Me,
Therefore, I am not disgraced;
Therefore, I have set My face like flint,
And I know that I will not be ashamed.


Isaiah 53
1 Who has believed our message?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2For He grew up before Him like a tender shoot,
And like a root out of parched ground;
He has no stately form or majesty
That we should look upon Him,
Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him.
3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
6All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
9His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
10But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
11As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.

[psholtz]

sladeh wrote: The passage I was thinking of is actually in Psalms.

The Messiah would have his hands and feet pierced:
Old Testament (Psalm 22:16) says:
Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.
New Testament (Luke 23:33) says:
When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals--one on his right, the other on his left.
This is exactly what I thought..

* The verse is not in Isaiah
* The verse says nothing about being crucified
* It's not clear to me that crucifixion did not exist in the time of Isaiah

Moreover, the verse is extremely vague.. So somebody's hands and feet were pierced. What's the big deal? You could say that about millions, if not billions, of people who have lived throughout history.

Quote: Taken alone, a scoffer could consider this prophecy (and any other) to be an amazing coincidence.
It's not even close to being coincidental.. I stepped on a nail once (accidently) when I was a kid and had to have it surgically removed. Does your prophecy refer to me? I hope not.. but there have been millions (if not billions) of people throughout history who have had their hands and feet pierced.. it's certainly not "unique" and it's certainly not coincidental.. In the Middle Ages, if you got on the Catholic Church's nerves, they would crucify you to a huge, thick wooden oak door, and then swing it open and slam it shut w/ you there hanging on it. Does your prophecy refer to these poor Souls? Certainly their hands and feet were pierced as well.

This is not that different than saying "the Messiah is going to have two eyeballs and a nose".. Well, yes.. I should hope so. But tell me something that "uniquely" specifies Jesus, in a prophetic way. Crucifixion is not one of them.. many, many, many people have been crucified throughout history.

Quote: One must consider all the Messianic prophecies to fully appreciate the overwhelming odds of all them pointing to peculiar and unique events in the life of Y'shua. At this point, the denial becomes a calculated act of rebellion, because God left no excuse, especially for a "thinking man"
I've seen the sum total of your "prophecies" of the "Messiah".. I provided the Thomas Paine link b/c he does an excellent job debunking them, and people who wish to read his ideas should be encouraged to do so, but if you'd like, we could continue here and now as well. The fact is, there's nothing in your "prophecies" that is all that remarkable. Many of them are simply fabricated, and the ones that aren't are simply lame (like "his hands will be peirced") and could apply to a huge range of people.

If you do not at least see and recognize this, then no, I would not characterize you as a "thinking man".. You must, at the very least, acknowledge that there is nothing "unique" in your prophecies of your "Messiah" (which is to say, given your "prophecies", there are millions of people throughout history who would have fit the bill). Once you acknowledge this, then if you decide to continue believing that Jesus is your Messiah, then you have every right to continue doing so. But it's hard to take someone seriously as a "thinking man" if they deny, say, the existence of gravity or the fact that the world is round, etc.

The idea that Jesus of Nazareth was somehow "uniquely specified" by these OT "prophecies" is on a similar level to this..

Quote: BTW, Sholtz, why do you (by inference) tell me that you do not consider me to be a thinking man?
What does my opinion of you have to do w/ anything?

[psholtz]

John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Isaiah tells us WHY....it's just another piece of the puzzle.

[sladeh]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Sholtz, please read the 53 chapter of Isaiah alone at night in a quiet place. Give the old prophet Isaiah an honest opportunity to speak to you the way he did to me. 53 chapter - read it. You don't have to admit anything to us. The effects may not take hold for some time. Don't ignore me, Sholtz - read it. 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Don't forget.

[psholtz]

sladeh wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Sholtz, please read the 53 chapter of Isaiah alone at night in a quiet place. Give the old prophet Isaiah an honest opportunity to speak to you the way he did to me. 53 chapter - read it. You don't have to admit anything to us. The effects may not take hold for some time. Don't ignore me, Sholtz - read it. 53rd chapter of Isaiah. Don't forget.
I have read Isaiah 53, many times in fact.

It seems to me that Isaiah is lamenting the brutal murder of one of his own servants.. I wouldn't read a great deal more into it than that..

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Isaiah tells us WHY....it's just another piece of the puzzle.
I just hope the puzzle isn't going to look anything like this once you're done w/ it: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[John]

psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Isaiah tells us WHY....it's just another piece of the puzzle.
I just hope the puzzle isn't going to look anything like this once you're done w/ it: :lol: :lol: :lol:



More like this..

[psholtz]

John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: psholtz wrote: John wrote: sladeh wrote: Isaiah also prophesied that Messiah would be crucified, centuries before the practice was invented. There are many, many more that I could mention, but I'm not sure that God is honored by me offering them to you in this venue to ridicule from your place self-imposed blindness.


Good eye!

It seems clear to me that Isaiah is speaking of the same Messiah that is strickin pictured throughout the OT.
It seems clear to me that your quotes come from Zecheriah and the Psalms, not from Isaiah.. :roll:

Isaiah tells us WHY....it's just another piece of the puzzle.
I just hope the puzzle isn't going to look anything like this once you're done w/ it: :lol: :lol: :lol:



More like this..


The sacrifice that Jesus of Nazareth made at Calvary is quite touching and moving and powerful, but there is far more to his life than just his death.

The wise Christian would do well to pull his nose out of the 1/2 of 1 chapter in each Gospel that's concerned w/ Calvary, and start (at least) trying to live in life in a manner somewhat conforming to the Laws and Morals and Jesus set forth in other 99% of the Gospels..

[sladeh]

What you say is true to some extent, but to failing to acknowledge the significance and accept the sacrifice he made for you is a far greater error.

[psholtz]

sladeh wrote: What you say is true to some extent, but to failing to acknowledge the significance and accept the sacrifice he made for you is a far greater error.
Now why would that be?

[sladeh]

Because no man can measure up to God's expectations. Blood atonement must be made to pay for the sins we will inevitably commit. Jesus bore the judgement of God in our place. He was tortured physically and bore the pain and the consequence of every sin I ever committed, so I would not have to. He loves me that much. He died so that I might have life. He was foresaken by God, and some believe He spent a season in Hell working out my salvation...only because he loved me. He loves you too. He has already paid the price for you.

[psholtz]

sladeh wrote: Because no man can measure up to God's expectations.
You're neglecting Matt 5:48

Quote: Blood atonement must be made to pay for the sins we will inevitably commit. Jesus bore the judgement of God in our place. He was tortured physically and bore the pain and the consequence of every sin I ever committed, so I would not have to. He loves me that much. He died so that I might have life. He was foresaken by God, and some believe He spent a season in Hell working out my salvation...only because he loved me. He loves you too. He has already paid the price for you.
Where in the Bible does it say any of this?

[sladeh]

psholtz wrote: sladeh wrote: Because no man can measure up to God's expectations.
You're neglecting Matt 5:48


Quote: Blood atonement must be made to pay for the sins we will inevitably commit. Jesus bore the judgement of God in our place. He was tortured physically and bore the pain and the consequence of every sin I ever committed, so I would not have to. He loves me that much. He died so that I might have life. He was foresaken by God, and some believe He spent a season in Hell working out my salvation...only because he loved me. He loves you too. He has already paid the price for you.
Where in the Bible does it say any of this?

I cannot explain Matt 5:48 completely, except that through Christ, my advocate, I am counted as righteous before God and my failings have been paid for in blood. Also, I should make every effort to live a righteous life, and not add to the suffering of Christ.

And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed” (1 Peter 2:24).

The message is a scralet thread that runs through the entire Bible.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The message is a scralet thread that runs through the entire Bible.
Quite so. :wink:

[wormwood]

:thrhj: by Jesus :lol: