Political Crossfire Forums

[Cheney's Shotgun]

The German research for new weapons during the Second World War was negatively influenced by the German victories in the beginning of the war. In those early years it looked like Germany could win with it’s usual weapons. There was no need for secret weapons. Because of this low interest in these weapons individual Germany companies did research for new weapons. It’s just frightening to know that a group of German scientists were already investigating with nuclear power in 1939. They were almost 3 years ahead of the allied scientists. The individual envy between of the scientists and the fact that they couldn’t ‘sell’ their work to Reichsminister Speer mend that they never got that support that the American Government gave to the ‘Manhattan-project’, the development of the Atomic bomb in America. In 1942 but country were approximately as far as each other but on the German side there was no more progress at all. In 1945, when the V2 bombs exploded all over in Great Britain the English government made a statement. In this statement they admitted that designing and building a V2 rocket definitely was a remarkable thing. But, the said, at this moment is the military value of this rocket is really doubtful. If the would have been equipped with an atomic warhead then this rocket would have caused the panic Hitler was hoping for.
The research and development of the rockets in Germany had started before the war broke out. But, in relating to the work of the nuclear scientists these activities were combined and led by a strong leadership. Walther Dornberger, an experienced artillery officer and a technical expert, became the leader of the development of the rockets. One of his first tasks was to record all the requirements the rockets had to meet. The rocket had to be able to carry about 1 ton of blasting charge and had to have a range of 250 kilometers. A rocket, which could meet these requirements, would have an enormous advantage on even the largest canons, which were used during the First World War. The work of the Germans on the Rocket weapon was interrupted by heavy bombardments on the research station at Peenemünde. Long time before, in 1943, the work there was temporarily stopped. Hitler had stopped the supply of the goods needed because he had had a bad dream about rockets. Summarized the German researchers were working on two different projects, de a4 (V2), a ballistic projectile and the FZG 76 (V1), the flying bomb. The V2 constantly got more attention of the researchers because it was more like a rocket. The V1 was more like a unmanned jet airplane with a high explosive charge of 890 kilograms. If we take a look at the results of it and it’s use it had for the Germans we can say that it was rally worth the money. Germany roughly spent about 40 million US Dollar on building and firing of the V1 and to the protection of the launching facilities.







In late August 1939, Heinkel, a German aircraft company built and flew the world's first jet aircraft. Of course if Hitler decided to continue research into this, he might of had an affective jet fighter by as early as mid-1943. But just a week later when Hitler decided to invade Poland using is 'Blitzkrieg' strategy, he put aside the jet program. During the early days of the invasion of the Soviet Union, the jet fighter question came up again, but Hitler thought he did not need a jet fighter. Hitler declares this because the propeller-driven aircraft were doing just fine, there was no need to put in a costly jet fighter/bomber program. In 1944 as the war was rapidly turning against Hitler and the Nazis, the German aircraft company Messersment, starting mass producing their new jet fighter approved by Hitler, the ME-262. The ME-262 was supposed to be the aircraft to win back the Nazis air power on the Western Front. But, unfortunately the Germans, time ran out. By the time the first ME-262 Luftwaffe fighter groups were appearing in March-April 1945 the war was nearly over and on May 6 '45 the Nazis surrendered and the European Theatre was coming to a close.

Hitler said the Germany would build up it's military and be at war, he said that in early-1939. If Hitler agreed to put the Heinkel He-178, the first jet, into production and improve on it for military standards, and waited until 1941 to invade, would Germany win the air battles such as the Battle of Britain? To add on to this, by the third year of the war, 1944, would the ME-262 become operational and shoot down the B-24s and B-25s on bombing raids and thus ending most of the bombing campaigns in Europe by the Allies?

Besides the V-1 and V-2...

ASM (AIR TO SURFACE MISSLES)
Blohm und Voss Bv 143
The Bv 143 was a glide bomb for anti-ship use, accelerated by a rocket engine. It was a primitive sea-skimming missile. A feeler arm was designed to keep the Bv 143 about 2m above the water, but it did not work properly, and the missile was canceled.

Blohm und Voss Bv 246 Hagelkorn
The Hagelkorn was an unpowered long-range glide bomb. It had an excellently streamlined fuselage, and wings with a very high aspect ratio. Construction of the wings was unusual: The aerofoils were made of concrete, around a steel core. Range was up to 200km if released from 10,000m. Several guidance systems were tried, including the Radieschen radar homing system. This made Hagelkorn one of the first anti-radar missiles. Over 1100 were produced before the project was canceled.

Friedensengel
The Friedensengel was a set of wings and tail surfaces, designed to extend the range of a standard 765kg air-launched torpedo. The on board control system also freed the launch aircraft from the need to maintain the exact speed and altitude required by the torpedo. About 450 were produced.

Fritz-X
Fritz-X, also known as FX-1400, was the first successful guided bomb. It consisted of a 1400kg armour-piercing bomb, fitted with four wings in a cruciform arrangement, and a tail ring with spoilers for control. It was usually carried by specially equipped Do 217 or He 177 bombers. In the launch aircraft, an operator steered the bomb to its target using a radio command link. Two hits with Fritz-X sank the Italian battleship Roma. Others seriously damaged the Italia and the British battleship Warspite, sank the cruiser Spartan, and damaged the cruisers Savannah and Uganda. Production of Fritz-X was limited to about 1400.

Henschel Hs 293
This was the first guided missile that entered service in large numbers. The Hs 293 was a glide bomb of airplane configuration, with a under slung rocket engine. It was carried by bombers like the He 111, He 177, Do 217 or Fw 200. A radio command link was standard, and a flare in the tail burned to help the operator sighting. There were also versions with wire guidance, and the experimental Hs 293D had TV guidance. The sloop HMS Egret, on 27 August 1943, had the dubious honor of being the first ship sunk by a guided missile. Many other victims followed, including five destroyers. Over 2300 Hs 293 missiles were fired.

Henschel Hs 294
Derivative of the Hs 293. It was intended as a anti-ship weapon, travelling to final trajectory to its target underwater.

Henschel GT 1200
The GT 1200 was a powered glide bomb for use against ships. It was designed to dive into the water at the end of its trajectory.

Mistel
The Mistel combinations consisted of a twin-engined bomber, in practice almost always a modified Ju 88, with a fighter (Bf 109 or Fw 190) mounted on top. The bomber was unmanned, its cockpit replaced by a large (3500kg) shaped-charge warhead, and additional tanks were installed to transfer fuel to the fighter. The combination was controlled by the pilot of the fighter. He would aim the Mistel at a target, then uncouple his fighter to fly back home. Over 250 were built. Plans for large scale operations, e.g. against Soviet power stations, were abandoned.

Schneewittchen
This was an improvement of Friedensengel. Few were delivered.
Zitteroschen
Zitteroschen was the first supersonic, winged, and guided missile. Intended for use against ground targets, it had small triangular wings and two rocket motors. It did not enter production.

If Hitler decided to put these missiles into production, would Ju-87 "Stuka" dive bombers armed with these be able to take out Allied targets and disable the Allied advance in Europe in 1942-1945? Would the Mistel be able to fight off the Allies during the years of retreat (late-1943 to May 1945)? Post your thoughts!


The attack with flying bombs between the 12th of June and the 1st of September 1944 cost Britain about 180 million US Dollar. This amount is based on lost production, losses of airplanes and crews, extra anti-aircraft guns, clear away the rubble caused by the attacks and the British attacks on the launching facilities. Besides that they needed another 95 million US Dollar the constantly repairs on houses destroyed by the V1. The explosion of a V1 caused an enormous air pressure when the rocket was filled with trialen, a explosive material which was twice as powerful as the explosives normally used those days. One V2 cost approximately $ 40.000 as a V1 flying bomb only cost about $ 450. In principal the Germans caused the most damaged to themselves by manufacturing the V2. By manufacturing the V2 there was a short of electronically supplies and this crippled the manufacturing of for instance fighter planes starting in the summer of 1943. It had also an impact on the demands made on submarines and on radar. Speer refused to give his permission to the extension of the development on rockets to fight airplanes at the end of 1944, unless the V2 program was reduced in order to supply the electrical supplies. If all the supplies used on the V2 were used on the development of the rocket against enemy airplanes the allied bombers would have suffered heavy losses.
In 1944 the development of anti airplane rockets was issued again. A commission led by Dornberger did this. Three designs that were initially rejected were now approved. These designed were ‘der Wasserfall’ (the waterfall), die Schmetterling (the butterfly) and Ruhrstahl X-4 (stirring stick). This last design would have been used by the fighter planes in order to fight the large numbers of B-17 Flying Fortress. It was a rocket with a liquid fuel carrying an explosive charge of 20 kilograms. The rocket was guided by a electrical wire. On of it’s most important properties were the use of non-strategic materials and parts, which could be assembled by unskilled labor. The metal sheets of the rocket could easily be linked together like metal toys. The wings were made of. Triplex and were attached on aluminum points of support by bolts and nuts.

In February 1945 approximately 1300 of these rockets were being produced as the engines in the BMW plant in Stuttgart were destroyed with a heavy bombardment. It would cost so much work and time to rebuild the plant that the development of this rocket was stopped

The 'Wasserfall' was a projectile, which was designed by the designers of Peenemünde who had worked on the development of the V2. This projectile was propelled by liquid fuel and could reach a maximum height of 17 kilometers.
The 'Schmetterling' was a rocket for the destruction of enemy airplanes. This rocket showed some characteristics, which were similar to the Hs 293 hovering bomb. It had 2 guiding rockets with solid fuel and a engine propelled by liquid fuel. It could reach a maximum height of 14 kilometers. With a explosive charge of 23 kilograms it had to be the usual air defense rocket of Germany.
As the Germans were forced to the defense as the war continued the use of non-strategic materials was emphasized. The Me 262 had proven the efficiency of a fighter plane propelled by jet engines to the Ministry of Aviation. In September 1994 the German Ministry of Aviation gave the order to design a fighter plane with remarkable qualities which could be build using as less strategic materials as possible. The airplane had to be able to be mass-produced by half-educated. The airplane had to be finished in January 1945.
The Heinkel 162A 'Salamander', nicknamed the 'Volksjager' (national fighter) was issued to the Ministry of Aviation to be judged. A scale model was inspected on the ministry on 23rd of September and five days later the order was given to build the first series. The first plane flew on the 6th of December 1944. Few days later it crashed in front of a delegation of party leaders and delegated people of the Ministry. Despite this accident the development was continued.

The lack of raw materials in Germany at the end of the war is obvious because of the materials of which a plane was constructed. The wing was made of timber and was built in one piece. The skin and ribs of the plane were made out of duralumium, the nose consisted out of triplex and the tale out of duralumium, steel and timber. Germany not only suffered from huge shortages of raw materials, but also from an increasing number of workers because most of the men were needed in the German army. In contrast with Great Britain Germany never adequately used the capability of woman for work. Instead of this foreign workers were used. Most of these workers were employed against there will. It therefore understands that quality of the work was very poor. The work was not only very slow but sometimes workers made mistakes deliberately.
On the other side of the development of the V2, a rocket developed more for political reason then tactical reasons, were several small rockets.
With the attack on Poland in 1939 already some forces of the chemical warfare were used. They were equipped with the 10 cm Nebelwerfer (fog thrower). In the beginning of the war only a few Nebelwerfer troops were available but the low costs of the rocket launchers made it very attractive to the Germans. Besides, the batteries of rocket launchers had an impressive firepower. A brigade could fire 108 rockets in just 10 seconds or 648 rockets in 90 seconds.

Germany developed a large variety of rocket launchers from the 90 kilograms weighing 28 cm 'Wurfkörper Spreng' with could be launched out of its transport crate or from a mobile launch platform as far as the anti tank grenade launcher 'Panzerfaust'. These weapons consisted out of a small rocket with a hollow charge, fired out of a tube. The principal of the hollow charge Hitler had found interesting even before the war. He suggested using this type of grenades to attack the bunkers of Eben Emaël, the large fort that was the key to the Belgian defense line in 1940.
The interference of Hitler in the German developments programs led to the separation of the large sum of money in the different researches. During the demonstration of the 80-cm canon 'Gustav', which could be moved on a railway track, General Guderian freighted enormously a he heard Dr. Müller van Krupp tell Hitler that the enormous canon could be used against enemy tanks. "For an instant I couldn't speak because I had seen the phantom of a mass-production of the Gustav", Guderian told. Guderian rushed to Hitler to explain that the gun could indeed be fired in the direction of tanks but that it would be would not be capable to hit the tank and that it cost about 45 minutes to reload and fire the huge canon again.

'Gustav' was a good example of the German interest in remarkable heavy models of existing weapons. This canon needed 1420 men for handling and protection and was led by a Sergeant Major. Two types of grenades could be fired: a grenade of 4 tons for the destruction of enemy troops with a range of 46 kilometer. The second type of grenade was a 17 tons grenade, capable of penetrating the strongest concrete. This grenade had a range of 36 kilometer. The monster canon was used in Sebastopol and Warschau and fired about 60 or 70 rounds. We cannot deny that this canon was a very good design and a good canon. On the other side it was an enormous waste of expensive materials. A bomber would have been able to destroy the same but it was much cheaper.

Also a navigable V1 was produced and even an extremely fanatical squadron of pilots was formed. They were never used in action because at the end of the war there was no target important enough to justify this sacrifice.
The ‘Do’ rocket was a rocket with a solid fuel, which could be launched, from a submarine. This weapon was only tested once (but a successful one) from a submerged submarine. The Germans had plans to transport V2 rockets onto submarines to the American coast where they had to be launched out of special launching facilities.
A weapon, which was more useful for antitank battles at a short range, was the ‘Sturmgewehr 44’ (storm gun 44). It was a huge step forward in the development of smaller guns. The Sturmgewehr 44 was equipped with a periscope and it had a bended barrel. During tests it was found out that the bullets were being deformed in the barrel.
Hitler’s meddlesome ness with different German development programs was the blame for some programs to be into the wrong direction. His interest in the ME 262 fighter would be disastrous for Germany. The plane was designed as a fast interception fighter. With the two Junkers jet engines the plane could reach speeds up to 860 kilometers per hour, much faster as the fastest allied plane. Thanks to the four 30 mm canons and the 24 R4M air rockets the plane had the firepower, which gave back the air superiority to the German Luftwaffe. Hitler concerned this plane to be the new Vergeltungswaffen (retaliatory weapon). “This will be my new ‘Blitzwaffen’ (lightning weapon)”, he said when he was told the plane could also carry bombs. The name ‘Schwalbe’ (Swallow) then was changed into ‘Sturmvögel’ (storm bird), from the fast swallow to the slow storm bird with 2 bombs of each 250 kilograms. Because of this heavy load the plane was not even hard to handle but it resulted also in the design being 4 months behind schedule. When the plane was finally used it was so slow that enemy planes with piston engines could easily pass them and shoot them down.
With the Arado Ar 234 ‘Blitz’ the German Luftwaffe finally got their first jet engine bomber. However, this airplane appeared to late to influence the fights in Europe. Although many sources claim to have seen one of these planes made a reconnaissance flight over the east coast of England.
The German research and development program was very digressive. The co-operation between workers was bad and the interference of Hitler made it not easier. Besides, there was no co-operating and responsible scientific accompaniment.
A large number of inventions got the needed support because the inventors could easily ‘sell’ their products to the Ministry. Some party members who were seated on certain posts in the Ministry concerned themselves as patrons of the scientific research. They gave large amounts of money and other resources to some German inventors.
Nowadays we still use some inventions that were invented by the Germans in the Second World War. The V2, which was shipped to America in 1945, was the beginning of the American space projects.

Could Hitler win the war with these weapons? Post your thoughts!

[David]

Hitler's problem was that the scientists were spread too thin working on too many projects.Fortunately for us all.

[Deus]

Thank you Hitler for saving us :)

[Deus]

If he could perfect the Tiger, Panther and the Jet fighter earlier in the war his model for quality over quantity might have worked.

But the problem was that it took materials for 3 shermans to make one Tiger, so that was really his gravest error.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Well for all the germans surperior technology and tactics, it was the shear weight of force of the russians that beat them.

Around the same time most of the german super weapons such as the jet fighter were going into production America and Britian had similar projects going into production, the Gloster meteor for example.

For all the Magic weapons in the world the war could not have been won by the germans in 1944, even with huge stunning victories on all fronts capturing moscow and Paris again would have been impossible due to there hugelly reduced manpower and industrial base.

Don't forget the nuclear bomb either, even if germany had extended its life past spring 1945 the eventuall outcome would have been similar to that of japan.

[Cheney's Shotgun]

Well Nuking Germany would be different than Nuking Japan...

[Angela]

Well if anything the German obsession for super weapons shortened the war, Germany simply didn’t have the industrial capacity to research and produce such technical advanced weapons, most of them were still at the prototype stage by the end of the war or were rushed into production with evident defects (just to make an example, the first Panthers suffered from frequent engine and transmission, the ME-262 suffered from low power engines and was so hard to flight that more planes were lost due to accidents than in combat, the Tiger was too heavy, V1 and V2 was so imprecise that were pretty much useless).
It’s not by chance that the Allies, even if they enjoyed a huge industrial superiority, didn’t followed the German route but concentrated on the mass production of reliable traditional weapons. The only exception was the A bomb (and to a lesser extent Ultra), but it was something that only the US could afford and anyway it subtracted only a fraction of the US production potential: just the development and the production of the B29 cost twice the whole Manhattan project.
Tigers and Panthers were great tanks perhaps the best tanks of the war, but Germany was able to produce 2000 Tigers and 6000 panthers the equivalent of a four months production of T-34 or Sherman. The same is true for rockets and panes: Me262 was produced in 1300 units, a month of production of P51 or Spitfire.

Germany war production was so irrational and badly managed that even a declining industrial power such as the UK and a country that had lost most of its industrial base (the USSR) were able to out produce Germany in every significant military item. At a certain point quantity becomes a quality itself.

[FCTE]

Most of those scientists and engineers were hand picked to be relocated and employed in the US in 1945 through "Operation Paperclip." Russia did the same and gained their Cold War weapons from these operations.

Our entire space program, ICBM's, and air defense systems were built off of Nazi/German engineering.

[galba]

Too little too late. The Me-262 may have helped, had Hitler pressed for its production. The most successful "wonder weapon" has to be the V1. The V2 was quite useless, but it did give the allies a scare.

[Cheney's Shotgun]

The V2 was quite useless but it was more of a pysch-wep

[CVN-65]

Deus wrote: If he could perfect the Tiger, Panther and the Jet fighter earlier in the war his model for quality over quantity might have worked.

But the problem was that it took materials for 3 shermans to make one Tiger, so that was really his gravest error.

I think in the end it would of been impossible for Hitler to be victorious. The numbers against him were staggering. Think, Germany the size of any small state in the US was trying to take over the world. (I don't give Italy as a worthy ally of Germany.) Germany had to handle two Juggernauts, USA, and Soviet Union. Simply to much land not enough manpower. All of the "quality" Hitler could of mustered up still would of proven inferior to the big dogs. This is not to say that if Hitler had more "Quality" , that he wouldn't inflict heavy casualties. He definitely would of added to more bodies to the memorial.

[venator]

I agree with the view that there were too many projects being reseached simultanously. Indeed would some of these 'revolutionary' projects have the needed material and scientific support; who knows who might have won the war? A German A-Bomb could have been the decisive factor in the war...

;)

[Il Principe]

Had the Germans gotten them sooner, e.g. at the start of 1944 rather than after D-Day ... maybe the allies would have been toast.

[Marcfj]

CVN-65 wrote: Think, Germany the size of any small state in the US was trying to take over the world.

Obviously you’re confused; it was England that was trying to take over the entire world, not Germany.

[superskippy]

The weight of Allied arms was hefted against him too great a mass even with these weapons he couldnt drive back about 3,000,000 Allied soldiers from the West, and another 10,000,000+ from the East. He was doomed.

[KOV-14]

Could have, would have, should have, may have, they don't matter. War: either you win or you don't.

But Germany's problem was that they ran out of soldiers. Nothing could have fixed that problem.

[razergreen]

Nothing said here about Oil, Germany ran low on metal resources and manpower, but much of their downfall came with the shortage of Oil. They had to invade the Caucuses, in Russia to get the oil. They could only build a certain amount of planes and tanks anyways, because they didn't have enough oil for a larger fleet, their air force and mechanical infantry manouvers were limited by their lack of oil. By 1944 some tanks had to be left as sitting ducks because there was not enough oil to move them around. The Luftwaffe was basically grounded too, same with in Japan. Japan needed more oil, Kamikaze bombers were used because they used less oil to take out targets than a few fighters flying around...anyways just some contribution, for more about this read "The Prize"

[GTTofAK]

razergreen wrote: Nothing said here about Oil, Germany ran low on metal resources and manpower, but much of their downfall came with the shortage of Oil. They had to invade the Caucuses, in Russia to get the oil. They could only build a certain amount of planes and tanks anyways, because they didn't have enough oil for a larger fleet, their air force and mechanical infantry manouvers were limited by their lack of oil. By 1944 some tanks had to be left as sitting ducks because there was not enough oil to move them around. The Luftwaffe was basically grounded too, same with in Japan. Japan needed more oil, Kamikaze bombers were used because they used less oil to take out targets than a few fighters flying around...anyways just some contribution, for more about this read "The Prize"

Yes and it didn't' help matters that the much of the German Army's machines of war such as the Tiger were gasshogs.

[Bobicito]

Yes they were but they were also stronger then any other tank other then the Soviets tanks. Panzer divisions were also the feared tank divisions in thhe european warfare.

[eynon]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Well for all the germans surperior technology and tactics, it was the shear weight of force of the russians that beat them.

Around the same time most of the german super weapons such as the jet fighter were going into production America and Britian had similar projects going into production, the Gloster meteor for example.

For all the Magic weapons in the world the war could not have been won by the germans in 1944, even with huge stunning victories on all fronts capturing moscow and Paris again would have been impossible due to there hugelly reduced manpower and industrial base.

Don't forget the nuclear bomb either, even if germany had extended its life past spring 1945 the eventuall outcome would have been similar to that of japan.

yep.....the Red Army and American A-bomb assured Hitler's defeat, be it in Srping 45 or Summer 45.....