Political Crossfire Forums

[HomoUniversalis]

In response to Sailor Moon's request to make a thread.

Sailor Moon wrote: HomoUniversalis wrote: Sailor Moon, perhaps I will better understand the whole issue if you can explain to me why limiting the freedom of women is not oppressive, and giving them the choice is oppresive.

Mr U

Its oppressive to women, while keeping abortion legal, by enabling womanizing men to take advantage of them, coerce them, threaten them, rape them, etc..

Two errors in your reasoning here. First, the abortion laws won't be oppresive, the womanizing men will be. Second, can you prove a correlation between abortion laws and 'rape', 'taking advantage', 'threatening', etcetera? Do you have a theory on why men would feel more inclined to rape when they know the woman they rape can have an abortion. Rape is about power, not about a sexual act.

Quote: Its also oppressive to women because its harmful to them psychologically, as well as physically.

So is smoking. Is allowing people to smoke oppresive? Of course not. It is the opposite, banning smoking, banning things that is remniscient of absolute, oppresive regimes. I wonder how the women in pakistan, forced down by the Shariah would appreciate your usage of the word.

Quote: I could name a hundred specific reasons why legal abortion is oppressive.

And yet you are cursed by an impotence to present them here. How striking.

Quote: Thats not what this thread is pertaining to, however you are more than welcome to start your own thread if you wish to discuss this.

The only reason I started this thread was because you made it bold, and repeated it.. :|

Quote: How making abortion illegal CAN be oppressive, is if fetuses are awarded some kind of entitlement to life, rather than a normal (cause and effect respective) right to live, due to the nature of how life and death works.

I have no idea what you are talking about there. They are, in your system, awarded some entitlement to live. If not, there would be no problem in removing them from the womb.

Quote: For more information on the "oppressive" nature of how abortion being illegal affects women, please scroll up.

I could find no reference to a scientific report on how banned abortion affects women. I can, however reference you to a book (afraid it is in Dutch) by the wife of an ambassador who spent 30 years living in the Middle-East, and wrote a book about how women are oppressed. And, not your 'feeling', but really oppressed.

Quote: If you want to discuss oppression to women through legal abortion, then start a new thread, like I asked, please.

We wont be discussing this in THIS thread, though. If you wish to address the issues pertaining to this thread, then please post anything "on topic" you wish. No hijacking, please. Thanks.

*Yawn*.

Mr U

[Sailor Moon]

HomoUniversalis wrote: In response to Sailor Moon's request to make a thread.

Sailor Moon wrote: HomoUniversalis wrote: Sailor Moon, perhaps I will better understand the whole issue if you can explain to me why limiting the freedom of women is not oppressive, and giving them the choice is oppresive.

Mr U

Its oppressive to women, while keeping abortion legal, by enabling womanizing men to take advantage of them, coerce them, threaten them, rape them, etc..

Two errors in your reasoning here. First, the abortion laws won't be oppresive, the womanizing men will be. Second, can you prove a correlation between abortion laws and 'rape', 'taking advantage', 'threatening', etcetera? Do you have a theory on why men would feel more inclined to rape when they know the woman they rape can have an abortion. Rape is about power, not about a sexual act.

No kidding- thats why legal abortion is so oppressive, like I said, especially about the womanizing men, who care only about sex, and will lie, cheat and steal, even propose marriage to get it. Ive had some experience with a couple of men who thought that a "convincing argument" included threatening suicide, as well as physical violence to myself, and these men are still out doing this to countless women. My babys daddy pulled the condom off, even, and HES one of the men I speak of. Hes got 5 friggin kids now, and dont call me stupid- mine was his first, thank you, and we got married even.

. Rape IS about power. If the woman birthed the baby, the man would lose all power, seeing as though the "forensic evidence", so to speak, would be marked as 99.9% his, by DNA. Therefore, if a woman is not allowed to take a morning after pill after being raped (which really does stink for her, I admit that much) then at the very VERY least, when the baby is born, the stupid power hungry idiot who raped her can finally go to JAIL where he belongs. Do you have any idea how many men get away with rape because of the morning after pill and abortion??? It might be a sacrifice of sorts to have to do this, but I think that in due time (as long as she reports the rape within X time frame, say 48 hours, and that can also be proven by ultrasound or delivery date) these stupid men will learn that the consequences may not be worth the actions.

Furthermore, women might actually start carrying guns more often, and fending these life sucking beasts off better, so we wont have the rape issue to deal with.

And back to the womanizing men who lie and do all these crazy things to get laid- Women might actually WISE UP and realise that it just might be better to actually wait longer than HE wants to.

I dont mean to paint a horrible picture of men in general, but there are alot of sharks out there, and THEY are the ones who dont stick around after they get a woman pregnant. I have seen it happen a hundred times, at least.

Quote: Quote: Its also oppressive to women because its harmful to them psychologically, as well as physically.

So is smoking. Is allowing people to smoke oppresive? Of course not. It is the opposite, banning smoking, banning things that is remniscient of absolute, oppresive regimes. I wonder how the women in pakistan, forced down by the Shariah would appreciate your usage of the word.

Thats an equal right. Both women AND men get hurt by smoking. Abortion, not so. ONLY women get hurt, physically, from abortion, unless you have some evidence to the contrary. Also, abortion causes ectopic pregnancies, and placenta previa, two major causes of maternal death, coincidentally.

Quote: Quote: I could name a hundred specific reasons why legal abortion is oppressive.

And yet you are cursed by an impotence to present them here. How striking.

Thanks. You JUST POSTED THIS, in case you hadnt noticed. That other thread, was a different topic, therefore applying all the logic and reasons to IT, did not apply.

Glad I can educate you, now, though. :wink:

Quote: Quote: Thats not what this thread is pertaining to, however you are more than welcome to start your own thread if you wish to discuss this.

The only reason I started this thread was because you made it bold, and repeated it.. :|

Wow thanks! I am always looking for people who want to learn more about abortion. Because like GI Joe says, "Knowing is half the battle"!

Quote: Quote: How making abortion illegal CAN be oppressive, is if fetuses are awarded some kind of entitlement to life, rather than a normal (cause and effect respective) right to live, due to the nature of how life and death works.

I have no idea what you are talking about there. They are, in your system, awarded some entitlement to live. If not, there would be no problem in removing them from the womb.

No- they have no more entitlement to live than you or I have. Those entitlements include the right to a fighting chance to get through the gestation period of life, (as we, the born, have the right at a fighting chance to live our days out) and the right to protection (like you and I) against forcible death. (murder.) You and I have no entitlements other than not being murdered, by anyone other than ourselves, theoretically speaking. As far as the right to life goes. The natural accident prone cause and effects of life, are ones WE ALL must succumb to, and its not fair to take away a human's NATURAL right to live without being intentionally murdered. The mother may not kill the human inside her, although she may attempt to kill herself.. autonomy does not supercede another humans natural rights. She may not insert chemicals or tools into her body with a purpose of killing her baby, but she may partake in normal day to day lifestyle activities, regardless of the cause and effect relationship it has to the child, and this is still autonomous. ex: trampoline (still leaves a fighting chance) herbs, a car ride, a train ride, biking, sedentary lifestyles, stunt doubling.. all of these things are really not that dangerous, in the first place, to the fetus, and not out of the ordinary. If abortion was illegal, I would hope that this was expressly implied within the law.

Quote: Quote: For more information on the "oppressive" nature of how abortion being illegal affects women, please scroll up.

I could find no reference to a scientific report on how banned abortion affects women. I can, however reference you to a book (afraid it is in Dutch) by the wife of an ambassador who spent 30 years living in the Middle-East, and wrote a book about how women are oppressed. And, not your 'feeling', but really oppressed.

Thats nice, because I could give you just as many stories of women here getting beaten and shot to death because they wouldnt abort. I am not referring to illegal abortion, either, numbo. READ. I can also reference you to opinion polls in the middle east and how this ONE womans voice sure as hell doesnt speak for the entire culture, either.

Quote: Quote: If you want to discuss oppression to women through legal abortion, then start a new thread, like I asked, please.

We wont be discussing this in THIS thread, though. If you wish to address the issues pertaining to this thread, then please post anything "on topic" you wish. No hijacking, please. Thanks.

*Yawn*.

Mr U

8:)

[HomoUniversalis]

Quote:

No kidding- thats why legal abortion is so oppressive, like I said, especially about the womanizing men, who care only about sex, and will lie, cheat and steal, even propose marriage to get it. Ive had some experience with a couple of men who thought that a "convincing argument" included threatening suicide, as well as physical violence to myself, and these men are still out doing this to countless women. My babys daddy pulled the condom off, even, and HES one of the men I speak of. Hes got 5 friggin kids now, and dont call me stupid- mine was his first, thank you, and we got married even.

. Rape IS about power. If the woman birthed the baby, the man would lose all power, seeing as though the "forensic evidence", so to speak, would be marked as 99.9% his, by DNA. Therefore, if a woman is not allowed to take a morning after pill after being raped (which really does stink for her, I admit that much) then at the very VERY least, when the baby is born, the stupid power hungry idiot who raped her can finally go to JAIL where he belongs. Do you have any idea how many men get away with rape because of the morning after pill and abortion??? It might be a sacrifice of sorts to have to do this, but I think that in due time (as long as she reports the rape within X time frame, say 48 hours, and that can also be proven by ultrasound or delivery date) these stupid men will learn that the consequences may not be worth the actions.

Furthermore, women might actually start carrying guns more often, and fending these life sucking beasts off better, so we wont have the rape issue to deal with.

And back to the womanizing men who lie and do all these crazy things to get laid- Women might actually WISE UP and realise that it just might be better to actually wait longer than HE wants to.

I dont mean to paint a horrible picture of men in general, but there are alot of sharks out there, and THEY are the ones who dont stick around after they get a woman pregnant. I have seen it happen a hundred times, at least.

Uhm. I'm speechless. I have no idea whether I'm supposed to feel sorry with you for the things that happened to you, or dissapointed that you have formed this image of men.

Aside from this, what you are saying is preposterous, in a way I can only begin to understand. First of all, when a man and a woman have sex, the chance of actually getting a baby are VERY small. Second, when a man forces a woman to have sex these chances remain the same. Third, if the conviction of rape was determined by forensic evidence, a LOT of rapists would go out, whether there are abortions or not. After all, statistically, most rapists would not get a child.
Adding to this, getting a child or not is entirely not what this is about. It's about exercising power, it's about showing the woman that she has absolutely no control. If he knows that there is nothing she can do to stop HIS baby from growing inside her, I believe (although I have no evidence to back it up) it will not hold him back. Perhaps only encourage it. In any case, cultures that have rules on rape, and abortion, like per example the muslim culture still has rape.

Quote: Furthermore, women might actually start carrying guns more often, and fending these life sucking beasts off better, so we wont have the rape issue to deal with.

It saddens me to see someone say that.

Quote: Thats an equal right. Both women AND men get hurt by smoking. Abortion, not so. ONLY women get hurt, physically, from abortion, unless you have some evidence to the contrary. Also, abortion causes ectopic pregnancies, and placenta previa, two major causes of maternal death, coincidentally.

And yet prior to this you spoke of trauma. Do you not believe a man can suffer similar trauma if his wife has terminated his child? Personally, I believe it is important to encourage conversations with the father (when possible), prior to giving the woman the eventual choice. After all, it is her body.

Quote: No- they have no more entitlement to live than you or I have. Those entitlements include the right to a fighting chance to get through the gestation period of life, (as we, the born, have the right at a fighting chance to live our days out) and the right to protection (like you and I) against forcible death. (murder.) You and I have no entitlements other than not being murdered, by anyone other than ourselves, theoretically speaking.

No, wrong. All rights are derived from the state, - Spinoza.

Quote: As far as the right to life goes.

Idem.

Quote: She may not insert chemicals or tools into her body with a purpose of killing her baby, but she may partake in normal day to day lifestyle activities, regardless of the cause and effect relationship it has to the child, and this is still autonomous. ex: trampoline (still leaves a fighting chance) herbs, a car ride, a train ride, biking, sedentary lifestyles, stunt doubling.. all of these things are really not that dangerous, in the first place, to the fetus, and not out of the ordinary. If abortion was illegal, I would hope that this was expressly implied within the law.

Than by implication I am free to murder you, as long as I don't do it with the intent of murdering you. Ergo, feeding you copious amounts of laughing gas because I think you need to get more fun out of life. Or, more in line with 'normal life', turning on the lights while you are fixing it. There is no right to live, and your distinguishing between the intent of killing or not is artificial.

Quote: Thats nice, because I could give you just as many stories of women here getting beaten and shot to death because they wouldnt abort. I am not referring to illegal abortion, either, numbo.

What is a numbo? And, more importantly, yes please, give me the stories, where a court has pointed out that a woman was shot to death, because she would not abort, and the man was convicted for such an act.

Quote: READ.

I am quite read on the Shariah, and women's rights in the middle-East.

Quote: I can also reference you to opinion polls in the middle east and how this ONE womans voice sure as hell doesnt speak for the entire culture, either.

No you can't. You can't, because everyone doing a poll in that region knows the fear and pressure these women live under. Such polls are either fabricated or false. Find me one scientific journal that is willing to publish such an article, and I will concede the point.

Concluding, you addressed me for being patronising, yet you have done the same in your 'glad I can educate you'. You reported my post for talking about a personality disorder, yet attempt to insult me, and make a point based on traumatic personal experiences that happen not as often as you seem to believe. Id est, I will not fall to an emotional debate, and hope that you can keep it rational.

Mr U

[Sailor Moon]

HomoUniversalis wrote: Quote:

No kidding- thats why legal abortion is so oppressive, like I said, especially about the womanizing men, who care only about sex, and will lie, cheat and steal, even propose marriage to get it. Ive had some experience with a couple of men who thought that a "convincing argument" included threatening suicide, as well as physical violence to myself, and these men are still out doing this to countless women. My babys daddy pulled the condom off, even, and HES one of the men I speak of. Hes got 5 friggin kids now, and dont call me stupid- mine was his first, thank you, and we got married even.

. Rape IS about power. If the woman birthed the baby, the man would lose all power, seeing as though the "forensic evidence", so to speak, would be marked as 99.9% his, by DNA. Therefore, if a woman is not allowed to take a morning after pill after being raped (which really does stink for her, I admit that much) then at the very VERY least, when the baby is born, the stupid power hungry idiot who raped her can finally go to JAIL where he belongs. Do you have any idea how many men get away with rape because of the morning after pill and abortion??? It might be a sacrifice of sorts to have to do this, but I think that in due time (as long as she reports the rape within X time frame, say 48 hours, and that can also be proven by ultrasound or delivery date) these stupid men will learn that the consequences may not be worth the actions.

Furthermore, women might actually start carrying guns more often, and fending these life sucking beasts off better, so we wont have the rape issue to deal with.

And back to the womanizing men who lie and do all these crazy things to get laid- Women might actually WISE UP and realise that it just might be better to actually wait longer than HE wants to.

I dont mean to paint a horrible picture of men in general, but there are alot of sharks out there, and THEY are the ones who dont stick around after they get a woman pregnant. I have seen it happen a hundred times, at least.

Uhm. I'm speechless. I have no idea whether I'm supposed to feel sorry with you for the things that happened to you, or dissapointed that you have formed this image of men.

Aside from this, what you are saying is preposterous, in a way I can only begin to understand. First of all, when a man and a woman have sex, the chance of actually getting a baby are VERY small.

But the chance of the baby being aborted, under conditions of legal abortion, are huge.

Quote: Second, when a man forces a woman to have sex these chances remain the same. Third, if the conviction of rape was determined by forensic evidence, a LOT of rapists would go out, whether there are abortions or not. After all, statistically, most rapists would not get a child.

No maybe not, but the ones who do will be taken off the streets and thrown in jail. Why ALLOW rape, just because he might not get a child?


Quote: Adding to this, getting a child or not is entirely not what this is about. It's about exercising power, it's about showing the woman that she has absolutely no control. If he knows that there is nothing she can do to stop HIS baby from growing inside her, I believe (although I have no evidence to back it up) it will not hold him back. Perhaps only encourage it. In any case, cultures that have rules on rape, and abortion, like per example the muslim culture still has rape.

Nope because once hes convicted the first time, he can quite easily be convicted a second time, and so on. I realise this is about power and control, more than you will ever know, and like I said before its not about ALL men, its about SOME, so please dont put words in my mouth, and rape my tonge of my own expressed opinions that way, by exercising your own form of power and control, simply because you dont find rape as ugly as life..

Quote: Quote: Furthermore, women might actually start carrying guns more often, and fending these life sucking beasts off better, so we wont have the rape issue to deal with.

It saddens me to see someone say that.

Whys that? You got someone in mind or something? Ya of course- theyre just somehow better off without protection. SUUURE.. and this is the oppression and inequal treatment I am talking about, folks! :clap:

Quote: Quote: Thats an equal right. Both women AND men get hurt by smoking. Abortion, not so. ONLY women get hurt, physically, from abortion, unless you have some evidence to the contrary. Also, abortion causes ectopic pregnancies, and placenta previa, two major causes of maternal death, coincidentally.

And yet prior to this you spoke of trauma. Do you not believe a man can suffer similar trauma if his wife has terminated his child? Personally, I believe it is important to encourage conversations with the father (when possible), prior to giving the woman the eventual choice. After all, it is her body.

Dude, I am so sick of your strawman illiterate arguments. I bolded where you didnt read. This is the second time I have had to correct you on reading comprehension. I said nothing about psychological trauma, and I strongly encourage paternal involvement.

Quote: Quote: No- they have no more entitlement to live than you or I have. Those entitlements include the right to a fighting chance to get through the gestation period of life, (as we, the born, have the right at a fighting chance to live our days out) and the right to protection (like you and I) against forcible death. (murder.) You and I have no entitlements other than not being murdered, by anyone other than ourselves, theoretically speaking.

No, wrong. All rights are derived from the state, - Spinoza.

You might live by the Spinoza bible, dear, but rights are individual, the way this country was founded. One does not get the "gift" of natural rights. Rights are inalienable.



Quote: Quote: She may not insert chemicals or tools into her body with a purpose of killing her baby, but she may partake in normal day to day lifestyle activities, regardless of the cause and effect relationship it has to the child, and this is still autonomous. ex: trampoline (still leaves a fighting chance) herbs, a car ride, a train ride, biking, sedentary lifestyles, stunt doubling.. all of these things are really not that dangerous, in the first place, to the fetus, and not out of the ordinary. If abortion was illegal, I would hope that this was expressly implied within the law.

Than by implication I am free to murder you, as long as I don't do it with the intent of murdering you. Ergo, feeding you copious amounts of laughing gas because I think you need to get more fun out of life. Or, more in line with 'normal life', turning on the lights while you are fixing it. There is no right to live, and your distinguishing between the intent of killing or not is artificial.

Nope I am sure I stated in the previous thread that no outside assistance is allowed. and oh looky here.. the word autonomous does not mean YOUR right to govern my body, now does it? It means self governing. Thats Strike Three!
Quote:
Quote: Thats nice, because I could give you just as many stories of women here getting beaten and shot to death because they wouldnt abort. I am not referring to illegal abortion, either, numbo.

What is a numbo? And, more importantly, yes please, give me the stories, where a court has pointed out that a woman was shot to death, because she would not abort, and the man was convicted for such an act.

Fine. If I must.

http://www.afterabortion.info/petition/Forced_Abortions.pdf#search='coerced%20abortion'
http://realchoice.0catch.com/unwantedabortions.htm

^^^This one has a tremendous number of testimonies

http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php?storytype=forced
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php?storytype=partner
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/testimonies/testimon_of_doris.asp
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/testimonies/nancy_anders.asp
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/testimonies/julia_taylor.asp
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/testimonies/judith_evans.asp
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/testimonies/colleen_age_28.asp
http://www.whatyouknowmightnotbeso.com/anon-1.html
http://www.circleofprayer.com/abortion-survival-testimonies.html
http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/abortion_testimony.htm
http://www.gargaro.com/regrets.html


Doctors:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/COVERUP.TXT
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php?storytype=clinic
http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/articles/1203finkel03-CP.html
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/AG_investigation_of_abortion_clinics.cfm
http://www.clinicworker.com/WhatToReport.html
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa021603a.htm
http://www.aegis.com/news/ads/2000/AD000405.html

Dr. Brian Finkel, the outspoken gun-toting Phoenix abortion doctor, was convicted Tuesday on 22 counts of sexually abusing patients over the past 17 years.

Planned Parenthood's obvious devotion to oppressing women:

http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_917pp.asp
http://www.voy.com/160745/7.html
http://www.mfc.org/contents/article.asp?id=1379

Planned PArenthoods statements, NOW leader statements, proclaiming to be willing to do illegal abortions, despite their "insistance" of law abiding people to "stay away" (picketers are usually the ones who are spit on, and hit, etc, not the other way around)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLENC/ENCYC018.HTM


Here: ilegal abortion clinics getting busted:

http://www.ohioroundtable.org/news/newsindividual.cfm?news_ID=88&issuecode=life
http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articles/2002/0402mg.htm

How rape, power and control, and DV in general is just awful to perpetrate or condone:

http://www.infoforhealth.org/pr/l11/l11chap4.shtml#top

How abortion promotes crime and suicide:

http://www.rightgrrl.com/carolyn/abortioncrime.html
http://www.childpredators.com/Tapes.cfm
http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jinouy01/abort/abort_death.html

Latest abortion research:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0042.html

Abortion history, 200 years of human protection wiped out in a moments time.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PROLIFE/LIFBFROE.TXT

Interview with "Jane Roe"
http://www.priestsforlife.org/testimony/normapflinterview.htm

"I was politically naieve at the time"


Quote: READ.

I am quite read on the Shariah, and women's rights in the middle-East.

Quote: Quote: I can also reference you to opinion polls in the middle east and how this ONE womans voice sure as hell doesnt speak for the entire culture, either.

No you can't. You can't, because everyone doing a poll in that region knows the fear and pressure these women live under. Such polls are either fabricated or false. Find me one scientific journal that is willing to publish such an article, and I will concede the point.

OMG! So now youre saying that this one woman's word is the gospel, while online polls and other pools are not? Well, thats being open minded. pffth.

Quote: Concluding, you addressed me for being patronising, yet you have done the same in your 'glad I can educate you'. You reported my post for talking about a personality disorder, yet attempt to insult me, and make a point based on traumatic personal experiences that happen not as often as you seem to believe. Id est, I will not fall to an emotional debate, and hope that you can keep it rational.

Mr U

In other words, you will use my emotions against me, while being heartless and otherwise emotionless, much like just about every abortion doctor who still exists, who is so numbed to it, and in such denial, that the overly used "denying" term "the contents of the uterus", which is hardly a medical term, has even spread to the FAQ pages for the clinics websites. Way to go.

Well, you just keep on pretending, then.

[HomoUniversalis]

Quote: Whys that? You got someone in mind or something? Ya of course- theyre just somehow better off without protection. SUUURE.. and this is the oppression and inequal treatment I am talking about, folks!

I don't think you realise the trauma that comes with killing someone.

Quote: You might live by the Spinoza bible, dear, but rights are individual, the way this country was founded. One does not get the "gift" of natural rights. Rights are inalienable.

No, wrong. Your individual rights are derived from the state. You are allowed to have an abortion, because the state allows it.

Quote: Nope I am sure I stated in the previous thread that no outside assistance is allowed. and oh looky here.. the word autonomous does not mean YOUR right to govern my body, now does it? It means self governing. Thats Strike Three!

Strike three? What are you talking about? I believe in partner co-operation and peaceful talk between man and wife. Lastly, the choice should be the woman's to make, not that of the government. I, here, am promoting choice and freedom, not you.

Regarding your links, the first website lacks proper scientific citation. The article in a peer-reviewed website they refer to, is about the actual trauma (a statement I will always support), the rest is all based on some book, not a peer-reviewed journal.
The second sees many articles, which report on the case being made, but not on the eventual outcome. I'm not going to read all the other sites, as I have better things to do, but must of them are extremely biased (priestforlife), et cetera.

Quote: OMG! So now youre saying that this one woman's word is the gospel, while online polls and other pools are not? Well, thats being open minded. pffth.

No, because I do not consider it a joyous text. Online polls? These are hardly valid, as a certain group of people goes online. Other polls? Well, demonstrate these scientific polls, then..!

Quote: In other words, you will use my emotions against me, while being heartless and otherwise emotionless, much like just about every abortion doctor who still exists, who is so numbed to it, and in such denial, that the overly used "denying" term "the contents of the uterus", which is hardly a medical term, has even spread to the FAQ pages for the clinics websites. Way to go.

Equating me with your enemy must make debating easy for you. Regarding terms, you have chosen the words oppresion, and I showed you why these were erronous. You react emotionally to them, rather than rational. You come up with victims of rape, and how men are sick beings. Your arguments are in the least preposterous, at the most sickening.

Like here, per example:

Quote: Dude, I am so sick of your strawman illiterate arguments. I bolded where you didnt read. This is the second time I have had to correct you on reading comprehension. I said nothing about psychological trauma, and I strongly encourage paternal involvement.

Aside from me not being illiterate (I am not, I am very well-read), you wish to limit the argument to your own agenda. You speak of fysical, to exclude male harm, and I point that there are other sides of damages, such as psychological. The fact that a man does not suffer fysical damage is obvious, but the psychological damage can be just as serious.

Mr U

[John Wilkes Booth]

OMG, if only Sailor Moon were still here so I could shoot down her arguments!

[Plodder]

foe someone named after a murderur, if find that false.

[steen]

Plodder wrote: foe someone named after a murderur, if find that false. For somebody named after a snail, I find that false.

[John Wilkes Booth]

Plodder wrote: foe someone named after a murderer, I find that false.
Assassin. People who kill presidents are assassins.

Plus he only killed a mass murderer anyway, so big deal.

[Plodder]

Quote: For somebody named after a snail, I find that false for all of you who do not read MAD magazine, Plodder is a parody off of Harry Potter. And you are saying a lot for a Dutch genere painter.