Political Crossfire Forums

[Flash]

Hi,

I've been given a coursework question entitled: How did Western attitudes towards China change between about 1600 and about 1800?

I have never covered this topic before in my life, and have been frantically looking for sources.

I know that at the beginning of this perdio China was admired by Europe for being an ancient, self-sustaining meritocracy, however by the end of the period China had gone into decline because it's self-sustaining attitude and preferation to perfecting old technology rather than creating new, and was starting to be viewed as weak.

Does anyone else know anything about this? Or could give me some pointers to work on because quite frankly I am stuck.

Thanks to anyone who contributes.

[XiangYu]

Hmmm, 1600 and onward. Well, to start off according to some official sources 1644 was the year of the end of the Ming Dynasty. After that, the Northern Manchus had control of China, establishing the Qing Dynasty. So the period you are talking about would mostly be encompassed by Qing Dynasty.

Aside from the earlier Tang Dynasty, I believe Ming Dynasty was admired by many outside and inside of China for its enlightened and stable rule. Despite the fact that Chinese Empire achieved the height of its expansion under the Manchus, many Han citizens were opposed to Qing rule, possibly because it was somewhat autocratic and also because Manchu was considered a foreign culture. Han Chinese frequently chanted "Overturn the Qing, and restore the Ming" as their revolutionary slogan during this period. Many secret Revolutionary societies also sprang up during this period. Thats all I can say for now...

[Rilzic]

You could try asking around in these forums. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html

Although i have to warn you there are some people there that will just spout off anti american stuff but there are also some helpful and highly educated people there although i think most have left by now.

TwinkieDP -- So Beijing the capital of china is in what was Manchu or were the Manchu even farther north near say harbin

[Simon De Montfort]

Flash wrote: Hi,

I've been given a coursework question entitled: How did Western attitudes towards China change between about 1600 and about 1800?

I have never covered this topic before in my life, and have been frantically looking for sources.

I know that at the beginning of this perdio China was admired by Europe for being an ancient, self-sustaining meritocracy, however by the end of the period China had gone into decline because it's self-sustaining attitude and preferation to perfecting old technology rather than creating new, and was starting to be viewed as weak.

Does anyone else know anything about this? Or could give me some pointers to work on because quite frankly I am stuck.

Thanks to anyone who contributes.

I think this has to do with the change in Europe's relative strength when compared to China. In 1600 China much more powerfull than Europe but by 1800 the tables had been reversed.

I'm not entirely sure about this but I think it also has to do with who controlled the trade. In 1600 only a few European ships were trading with China. But by 1800 Europeans dominated trade in Asian waters. In 1800 you had thousands of European ships visiting Chinese ports each year but not a single Chinese ship visiting Europe.

[XiangYu]

Rilzic wrote: You could try asking around in these forums. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/home/index.html

Although i have to warn you there are some people there that will just spout off anti american stuff but there are also some helpful and highly educated people there although i think most have left by now.

TwinkieDP -- So Beijing the capital of china is in what was Manchu or were the Manchu even farther north near say harbin I believe Manchurians Homeland was located further North of Beijing, encompassing Provinces of HeilongJiang, Jilin, LiaoNing and Parts of Inner Mongolia. At the end of Manchu Rule, the Last Emperor of China was Pu Yi, as many of you are probably familiar with the film. Official story is the Japanese, who occupied China, Set up PuYi in ManchuGuo (Kingdom of Manchu) as the puppet of Imperial Japan. Did Manchu Guo include Beijing? I will have to do more research to confirm.

[XiangYu]

Simon De Montfort wrote:
I think this has to do with the change in Europe's relative strength when compared to China. In 1600 China much more powerfull than Europe but by 1800 the tables had been reversed.

I'm not entirely sure about this but I think it also has to do with who controlled the trade. In 1600 only a few European ships were trading with China. But by 1800 Europeans dominated trade in Asian waters. In 1800 you had thousands of European ships visiting Chinese ports each year but not a single Chinese ship visiting Europe. Yes, I believe its true that from 1700's onward European seaward exploration flowered while Sinae (I prefer this over China) became more inward looking. However, dont forget the ocean expeditions of Admiral Zheng He (original name Ma San Bao, a Muslim from Yunnan province) during the earlier years of the Ming Dynasty. According to records by order of the Emperor, Zheng He set sail in the early 1400's. I'm sure there are now books in English about this legendary figure. He sailed to throughout the Islands of Southeast Asia, India, Arabian Seas and even reached the East Coast of Africa. That much is undisputed. What is controversial is the claim by some who say Zheng He reached the Americas at about 1432.

I don't know if any of you have read Gavin Menzie's book, but even without reading the book I'm skeptical about Zheng He crossing the Vast Pacific, despite being an ethnic Chinese myself.

Even according to Medieval Western history, Asia has always been a magnet for trade. The Early explorations were intended to find a more direct Seaward route to Asia, thereby cutting out the Arab and Venetian middlemen for Asian goods. Although not many chinese these days Harp about Zheng He or the economic and military development of the Ming Dynasty, the Ming were indeed very influential and powerful.

[Quicksurf]

During the 1800's, China was being taken "advantage of" by Europeans and Americans alike when it comes to industrialization. The Qing Empire wanted to keep foreign influences out, which actually started the Opium War with Britain and France. After that, Europe placed a great deal of debt on China which raised poverty levels, and as a result started the Taiping Rebellion which was devestating to Chinese agriculture.

I would also do I google search on "Boxer Rebellion". I don't really have time to get into the details of that, but it was before the Opium War. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

[XiangYu]

I often go to www.chinahistoryforum.com
There are many helpful and knowledgeable people there...


Edit: although it seems the site is temporarily down...

[Simon De Montfort]

Quicksurf wrote: During the 1800's, China was being taken "advantage of" by Europeans and Americans alike when it comes to industrialization. The Qing Empire wanted to keep foreign influences out, which actually started the Opium War with Britain and France. After that, Europe placed a great deal of debt on China which raised poverty levels, and as a result started the Taiping Rebellion which was devestating to Chinese agriculture.

I would also do I google search on "Boxer Rebellion". I don't really have time to get into the details of that, but it was before the Opium War. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

First Opium War 1839-42
LINK
Second Opium War 1856-60
LINK
Boxer Rebellion 1899-1901
LINK

[XiangYu]

The Opium Wars, Qing China's attempts at curtailing the sale of Opium in China was not unlike the policies of Bush Senior towards Columbian Drug Cartels in his War on Drugs.

The European Powers certainly exhibited despicable behavior during this period. Japan, Russia and even the Fledgling U.S. smelled blood and joined in the "Carving up of China" for their own interests. Europeans set up special economic zones within China. Some even posted signs saying "No Chinese, No Dogs Allowed" at the borders of their community. Imagine the insult.

Imagine, a foreign group of people doing the same in your homeland.

[aznninjahitman]

Yeah... the idea pisses me off.
Then again, being who we are, we Chinese have been discriminated against everywhere. The overseas Chinese community is MASSIVE, and has been discriminated against everywhere it goes, essentially. Heh, that sounded redundant.
Well, think McCarthyism and his Sinophobia, as well as the sinophobia after the Railroad was finished, etc. Immigration acts in the Western Hemisphere (especially Canada and the US) restricting our citizenship and immigration, etc. Yeah... you get the idea.
Then again, we get the last laugh... :lol: We'll probably be around long after Caucasian racial identity is fading and you're all speaking English or Esperanto, and we're a rising superpower with a massive industrial base as well. 8:) Whee!

[Quicksurf]

Simon De Montfort wrote: Quicksurf wrote: During the 1800's, China was being taken "advantage of" by Europeans and Americans alike when it comes to industrialization. The Qing Empire wanted to keep foreign influences out, which actually started the Opium War with Britain and France. After that, Europe placed a great deal of debt on China which raised poverty levels, and as a result started the Taiping Rebellion which was devestating to Chinese agriculture.

I would also do I google search on "Boxer Rebellion". I don't really have time to get into the details of that, but it was before the Opium War. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

First Opium War 1839-42
LINK
Second Opium War 1856-60
LINK
Boxer Rebellion 1899-1901
LINK

Ooops, I got the dates mixed up.

[XiangYu]

aznninjahitman wrote: Yeah... the idea pisses me off.
Then again, being who we are, we Chinese have been discriminated against everywhere. The overseas Chinese community is MASSIVE, and has been discriminated against everywhere it goes, essentially. Heh, that sounded redundant.
Well, think McCarthyism and his Sinophobia, as well as the sinophobia after the Railroad was finished, etc. Immigration acts in the Western Hemisphere (especially Canada and the US) restricting our citizenship and immigration, etc. Yeah... you get the idea.
Then again, we get the last laugh... :lol: We'll probably be around long after Caucasian racial identity is fading and you're all speaking English or Esperanto, and we're a rising superpower with a massive industrial base as well. 8:) Whee!

It was not my intention to foster Chinese Nationalism. I merely wanted to remind people what happened during that period in Chinese History...

[aznninjahitman]

No, Twinkie. :) It wasn't your intention. I agree. But it's my viewpoint. :P