Political Crossfire Forums

[JimT]

Just for the record: I was a Christian, but not anymore. Websites like yours, Jewsforjudaism and outreachjudaism, etc… convinced me that Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I still think that Jesus was a marvelous person; but not our savior.

Why not?

"Believe in a Messiah who didn't fulfill all the Messianic Prophecies, or burn in Hell" is not based on love. G-d is a loving G-d, and if he isn't a loving G-d, then – at least – He is a righteous G-d. The choice between believing in a Messiah who did not fulfill all the Messianic Prophecies, and burning in Hell isn't righteous nor based on love. The Moshiach ben David has yet to come. We'll have to wait.

peace

JimT

[cap'n queasy]

What of the Moshiach ben Yosef?

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: What of the Moshiach ben Yosef?

I think what he's trying to say is that he does not believe in Moshiach ben Yosef being the Messiah. You know pretty well that I believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

[JimT]

cap'n queasy wrote: What of the Moshiach ben Yosef?

See Moshe Shulman's excellent article http://www.messiahtruth.com/yosef.html

Or my "summary":

The title "the Anointed One" (the messiah) denotes in the Tanach/ Old Testament a prophet, a priest or a king. However, the simple term "the Messiah" does not occur in the Tanach/Old Testament as a reference to a single special person who is expected to arrive at some future date. It is much more complicated. Biblically, a person can sometimes be called "a mashiach" (messiah) if he is doing some G-d ordained function: prophet, priest or king. But then, why used/uses Judaism this term "Mashiach" (Messiah) as a reference to a person who will appear at the 'end-times'? Where do we get this association with that term?

To understand this you need to look at the end-times prophecies -- the passages in the Tenach that announce that they are dealing with a specific period called 'the end of days'. Some of them mention particular characters that seem to have a role to play in this future period. See for example Isaiah 2:2-4:


Quote: 2 And it shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many peoples shall go and say: ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the G-d of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.’ For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.


People will gather in Jerusalem to worship G-d (verse 2-3); War will end (verse 4); The nations will be judged (verse 4)…

In Isaiah 11 there is an expansion of these themes. Just as above we have people gathering in Jerusalem in verse12, the end of war in verse 6-8, and the judgment of nations in 2-5.


Quote: 1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots.
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears;
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.
6 And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the basilisk’s den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
14 And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; together shall they spoil the children of the east; they shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.
15 And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, and will smite it into seven streams, and cause men to march over dry-shod.
16 And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, like as there was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.



Besides the repetition of what is in Isaiah 2, this passage adds a few new points that add to our picture of the end-times, like: there will be a leader, from the tribe of Judah who will also be the judge. (1 and 10); Ephraim (the Northern kingdom of Israel) and Judah (the Southern Kingdom) will no longer contend with each other. (13); The Jewish people will be gathered from exile. (12, 16);

Later on, Ezekiel 37 shows more about this reconciliation of Judah and Ephraim, with some more information about this ingathering period:


Quote: 15. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying:
16. ‘And thou, son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it: For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it: For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and of all the house of Israel his companions;
17 and join them for thee one to another into one stick, that they may become one in thy hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying: Wilt thou not tell us what thou meanest by these?
19 say into them: Thus saith the Lord G-D: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord G-D: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land;
22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;
23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their G-d.
24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, forever; and David My servant shall be their prince forever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them—it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever.
27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their G-d, and they shall be My people.
28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.’


In addition to the same old themes, the following is added to the picture of the end times: Ephraim and Judah will be joined together with Judah as the lead. (16-19); This leader will be David’s descendant. He is called the king, prince and leader of that time. (24-25); There will be a sanctuary (temple) (28).

What is interesting about this passage in Ezekiel is that Ephraim and Judah are on the same level, but that Judah would lead. This indicates that both Ephraim and Judah would have leaders (ben Efraim/ben Josef & ben Judah/ben David). But the one from Judah (i.e. the Davidic one) would be the sole leader. What happens to the leader of Ephraim?

Now if we look at Ezekiel 40-48 we see more information about that Temple and another important figure in that time. There we learn about the priesthood, and verse 44:27 refers to a single priest.

So, there will be a Davidic king/leader (a Moshiach) and a priest (a Moshiach).

Sometime during the late second temple period we indeed see that these people are referred to as "Messiahs". This is confirmed by - for example - the Dead Sea Scrolls (in 1QS - Rule of the Community), it says (IX 11) : " … the messiahs of Aaron and Israel." Here we see the same figures mentioned above: the priest of Aaron and the leader of Israel -- the messianic type characters in the end of days, in the Biblical text and in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The prophet Ovadiah:


Quote: 17 But in mount Zion there shall be those that escape, and it shall be holy; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken.
19 And they of the South shall possess the mount of Esau, and they of the Lowland the Philistines; and they shall possess the field of Ephraim, and the field of Samaria; and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.
20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel, that are among the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath, and the captivity of Jerusalem, that is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the South.
21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD’S.


He we see, from verse 18, that the House of Joseph (including its leader) has a military role in the end-times drama. Verse 21 indicates that this is a joint effort. From this we see that the time when the Moshiach ben Yosef comes ends with a period of peace. This would indicate the period we have seen above when there is world peace, a renewal of the Davidic kingdom, etc. The following points summarize this issue and are agreed to in all the Midrashim that deal with the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshiach ben Dovid.
1. They are two different people from two different tribal families.
2. They live at the same time.
3. Moshiach ben Yosef never takes the throne nor is he entitled to.
4. Moshiach ben Yosef is a warrior (Moshiach ben Dovid would also appear to be)
5. Moshiach ben Yosef will be killed in BATTLE and will be the first to be raised from the dead by Moshiach ben Dovid.
6. The period of time from when Moshiach ben Yosef first comes into prominence until he is resurrected after the Moshiach ben Dovid comes to his throne is very short, the longest period is under two years.
7. The basic chronology of events is that there is a seven-year period. It starts with continually problems, it starts to improve and then in the sixth year it gets worse again. In the seventh year there are great wars in which the Moshiach ben Yosef is first successful and then he is killed in that later part of the year. Many Jewish people will become depressed and fall away. At the end of the seven years Moshiach ben Dovid comes and finishes the job and there comes the resurrection of the dead.

There is one more aspect with regards to Moshiach ben Yosef that appears in Rabbinic literature that needs to be addressed. In the work, Emunah V’Deos by Rabbi Saadiah Gaon, after a discussion of the end-times he makes the following comment:


Quote: If we do not repent, the events of Ben Joseph will come to pass. But if we repent, they will not, and Messiah ben David will appear to us suddenly.


To understand this issue and how it could be, we need to understand something simple about Biblical prophecy. People usually think (based on Deuteronomy 18) that a false prophet says something will occur and it does not. Here is what appears in Deuteronomy 18:


Quote: 21 And if thou say in thy heart: "How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?"
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken; the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.


But there is a problem. Let's look at the book of Jonah. In chapter 1 we see that Jonah is commanded by G-d to bring a message:


Quote: NOW THE WORD of the LORD came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying: 'Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and proclaim against it; for their wickedness is come up before Me.'


In chapter 3 we see the message:


Quote: 1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying: 2 'Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and make unto it the proclamation that I bid thee.'
3 So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city, of three days’ journey.
4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he proclaimed, and said: ‘Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.’


So the message of Jonah was that Ninevah had only 40 days left. But that is not what happened:


Quote: 5 And the people of Nineveh believed G-d; and they proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
6 And the tidings reached the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying: ‘Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing; let them not feed, nor drink water;
8 but let them be covered with sackcloth, both man and beast, and let them cry mightily unto G-d; yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
9 Who knoweth whether G-d will not turn and repent, and turn away from His fierce anger, that we perish not?’
10 And G-d saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and G-d repented of the evil, which He said He would do unto them; and He did it not.


So is Jonah a false prophet? What he said did not come to pass. The key is verse 10: When G-d sees that people repent; there is no need for the bad decree. With every prophecy of doom, there is an understood condition: If you repent then it is not going to happen. This principle is explicit in the Tenach. Read Jeremiah 28:


Quote: Nevertheless hear thou now this word that I speak in thine ears, and in the ears of all the people:
8 The prophets that have been before me and before thee of old prophesied against many countries, and against great kingdoms, of war, and of evil, and of pestilence.
9 The prophet that prophesieth of peace, when the word of the prophet shall come to pass, then shall the prophet be known, that the LORD hath truly sent him.’


Here we see that although many prophecies of disaster have been sent it is only those prophecies of peace that must occur. Only through a positive philosophy can they know a true prophet. For that reason Jonah was NOT a false prophet. His prophecy of disaster had an understood condition that, IF they repent, then it will not have to come, but if not then it will. ONLY if he had predicted that there would be a peaceful result, then its non-occurrence would be a sign of his being a false prophet. From this you see that there can be two possibilities for the end-times. One will occur if they repent and the other if they do not. Now, return to the passages from the Rabbis. It refers to the principle just stated: it is a reference to Moshiach ben David, and the two ways in which HE can come! Before the above passage (of Rabbi Saadiah Gaon), you find the following passage:


Quote: Rabbi Eliezer said, ‘If Israel repents they will be redeemed, and if not they will not be.” Rabbi Yehoshua said to him, “If they don’t repent they will not be redeemed? But the Holy One Blessed is He will raise up for them a King who will make decrees over them like Haman and they will repent and return to the good.”


As Rabbi Saadiah Gaon points out, this teaching refers to the wars and disasters that would occur before the coming of Moshiach ben Yosef. But if they do repent then there is no need for all of that. When you look at the Tenach, you’ll see two types of prophecies dealing with the end-times period. One tells of wars, like Ezekiel 38 and Zechariah 12. But others are silent, mentioning neither war, nor any other series of events. Based on the Biblical principle we saw from the books of Jonah and Jeremiah, we see that G-d’s message of war is a conditional one that can be mitigated by repentance. This is the message of the Talmud. Let’s see the passages in context. First Daniel 7:


Quote: 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve him; his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


Here you see the end-times, but in a miraculous way. But in Zechariah 9, the same results are given in another format:

Quote: 9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, thy king cometh unto thee, he is triumphant, and victorious, lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace unto the nations; and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.


Here the results are the same, but the protagonist is described as coming in a more humbling manner.

Bringing all these Biblical verses and principles we now have the teaching of the Rabbis: Moshiach ben Josef is conditional, Moshiach ben David is the promised Messiah.
(see: http://www.messiahtruth.com/yosef.html)

Peace!


JimT

Another article worth mentioning is: http://jewsforjudaism.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2735 .

[cap'n queasy]

They are one and the same. And what many folks see as Moshiach ben Yosef came at the exact appointed time.

Jerusalem was destroyed because of failure to heed this as charged by Gabriel through the prophet Daniel.
Quote: Daniel 9:25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

This is why it is said that Moshiach had to come before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. This prophecy can be counted as fulfilled IMHO.

I would like to say more on the subject, but not in this particular section of the forum. It would be impolite. I only brought it up in answer to your statements.

[sLiPpY]

cap'n queasy wrote: They are one and the same. And what many folks see as Moshiach ben Yosef came at the exact appointed time.

Jerusalem was destroyed because of failure to heed this as charged by Gabriel through the prophet Daniel.
Quote: Daniel 9:25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

This is why it is said that Moshiach had to come before the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. This prophecy can be counted as fulfilled IMHO.

I would like to say more on the subject, but not in this particular section of the forum. It would be impolite. I only brought it up in answer to your statements.

Ah, Daniel the Apocalypse... Which is pretty much the Old Testiment's equivalent of the Revelation. I don't have anything else to offer on the topic, however wanted to express I'm observing some interesting views. Keep it coming folks. :-D

[Duchifas]

JimT wrote: Just for the record: I was a Christian, but not anymore. Websites like yours, Jewsforjudaism and outreachjudaism, etc… convinced me that Jesus cannot be the Messiah. I still think that Jesus was a marvelous person; but not our savior.

Why not?

"Believe in a Messiah who didn't fulfill all the Messianic Prophecies, or burn in Hell" is not based on love. G-d is a loving G-d, and if he isn't a loving G-d, then – at least – He is a righteous G-d. The choice between believing in a Messiah who did not fulfill all the Messianic Prophecies, and burning in Hell isn't righteous nor based on love. The Moshiach ben David has yet to come. We'll have to wait.

peace

JimT

So what are you now?

[Mailech]

JimT, that was a very interesting article.