Political Crossfire Forums

[Enoch]

For years, I have heard about a "gay agenda." But, to be honest, I have no idea what the hell it is. I am gay, and I didn't get the copy of the memo. Does someone have it for me? Is there some sort of idea or concept that I should be "shoving down people's throats?"

Really, my only agenda is to be happy. Is that not what I should have on my agenda? Did I make a mistake?

But, I did find that Mark Morford, a columnist with the San Francisco Gate, has a better take on the "gay agenda." Maybe now everyone will finally know our deep secret.

Quote: Here Is The Big Gay Agenda
Revealed! The horrifying secret plot to homo-amplify America. Also: Dig this hetero agenda!
By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist

Friday, January 27, 2006

I have spoken with my gay friends. I have been to yoga classes and men's health spas and Restoration Hardware, chic rug shops and the Castro Starbucks and really cute restaurants featuring mixed baby greens that cost $12. I have observed. I have taken notes. I have checked the fashions and the cars and the skin-tight T-shirts, the newsletters and the bumper stickers and the secret codes hidden within the rainbow flag.

It is time to come clean. It is time to reveal the truth. After all, the religious right has been hammering at it for years, the pseudo-Christians and the homophobes and the sexually terrified all fully and truly believing that there is a plot, a massive, deep-seated agenda among the gay community not only to decriminalize and demystify homosexuality but to actually coerce and cajole and actively lure the innocent white babies of America into the sordid and well-dressed "gay lifestyle," so much so that, much like aliens living in underground cities in Area 51, well, there must be something to it.

Just look. Look at the wanton slew of nasty e-mails I received -- intermixed like bloody shrapnel amid a huge stack of gorgeous e-mail enthusiasm, mind -- in response to my recent column extolling the virtues of the heartbreaking, perspective-altering "Brokeback Mountain" phenom, wherein I dared to suggest that this spare and potent little film might actually help deflect the savage karmic pain of people like Samuel Alito and move the human experiment forward, just a little. What nerve I had.


Mark, gay films move us back. To tell society, which includes children, that to stick a penis inside someones anus, a wholey unnatrual act is ok and normal is ubsurd. I don't hold anything against gays, I'm not one to judge people, they can do what they please, but to shove their pervertions down everyones throat, and to try to make it mainstream and teach children honosexualiy is a normal thing for people to do is sick. -- Steve W

Or this:

It is really hard to believe that people like yourself are gloating over this film and are so proud of the degradation of our country (USA) that you have joined the masses and are HELL BENT on the destruction of Christianity, family values, and everything that is decent and what out forefathers have fought and died for in this country. Your kind are the real BIGOTS! You are the enemy of everything that is decent and good, you love death and destruction (that is what the homosexual lifestyle will lead to)... -- Larry L

Isn't that sweet? Doesn't it make you feel good to be an American? Sure it does.

But you know what? Adorably rabid, misguided homophobes like Steve and Larry, they might have a point after all. Because after all my observations and when I really allow myself to be honest, I become convinced of the existence of a truly shocking gay lifestyle, an actual gay agenda far more sinister than even desperately misguided and morally lost people like Steve and Larry can comprehend.

Do you know what it is? Do you want to know the real gay agenda, what 96.8 percent of all gay couples wish for every single day including Sunday? Here it is:

From what I can glean and above all else, the gay people of America seem to want this simply inexcusable level of boundless, unchecked normalcy. It's true. For some reason, they believe the utterly disgusting idea that they should be able to live their lives in peace and trust and health, with full support and assistance from their schools and hospitals and government, just like everyone else. I know. Shudder.

It is, in fact, remarkably similar to what heteros want. And women. And black people. And immigrants. And dwarves. That is, to be able to fall in love and maybe even get married (or at least have the option) and have decreasing amounts of sex and raise a family and hold down a good job and pay their taxes and argue with their lovers over who the hell spent 200 bucks on long distance to their mother, all while not having to worry about getting the living crap beaten out of them with tire chains by Arkansas and Alabama and most of Texas, or secretly loathed by small-minded pseudo-Christians who wouldn't know Jesus' true message if it bit them on the other cheek.

Ah, the deviousness of it all, the sheer nerve to desire the same sort of lives as everyone else. But do you want to know the kicker? The true aspect of the "gay agenda" that makes the religious right's skin really crawl? Here it is: When all of that normalcy is in place, when these repulsive gay beings who like to walk around in public and eat at restaurants and drink their lattes and laugh out loud and stick things into each other's bodies for sexual pleasure, well, they want the most appalling thing of all: They just want to be left alone.

I know. It's hideous. How dare they! How dare most gays ask not to be harassed and not really care to flaunt their sexuality or convince anyone that homosexuality is cool or righteous or the only way to be, beyond reassuring children that it's OK to be whatever religion or sexual orientation your mind and body and heart and soul guide you to be. Can you imagine? What horror. Ignorant, intolerant schoolteachers should protest that nasty idea right now. Oh wait.

This is, in fact, the most sinister gay agenda of all. Normalcy. Lack of fear. Happiness. The right to be miserably in love just like everyone else and have it recognized by the culture as, well, no big deal. Safe. Healthy. Beautiful, even. What nerve.

To Steve and Larry's great dismay, gay people do not seem to care in the slightest for converting anyone to homosexuality, which of course would be the equivalent of converting a frying pan into a doorknob. It simply cannot be done. It's bitterly sad that this must be repeated so frequently in terms so simple that even Steve and Larry can comprehend, but gayness is no more a lifestyle choice than is blond hair or blood type or that knowledge, deep down in your skin, that Bush is raping the soul of the nation. It just is.

Much can be learned from this shocking revelation. Much we can glean from the gay agenda's "true" motivations -- most notably in how it contrasts with the famed and beloved Christian neoconservative heterosexual agenda, the one that instructs that you please keep your mouth shut and blindly believe in the same bitter God as everyone else, and by the way please bury your true sexuality and get married at 23 and pop out six kids and become quickly and quietly miserable and gain 30 pounds and stop having sex entirely and get divorced at 50 and wake up just in time to watch yourself die.

Oh my yes, that has proven to be just so much better, hasn't it, Steve? Larry?

There you have it, ladies and gentlemen, the gay agenda.

Aren't you glad you finally know the deep, dark, truth behind what we really are after?

Link to Article

[Kt]

OMIGODS t3h GAY Agenda 0f DEATH and DESTRUCTION of ChildRen OMIGODS!!!

[Enoch]

What, not many comments? People don't like finally knowing the truth behind the gay agenda?
;)

[Kt]

UrielsFyre wrote: What, not many comments? People don't like finally knowing the truth behind the gay agenda?
;)

It's kind of dissapointing, it's a wonderful post, so much effort, the only one who replies is Shim Eun-Ha, something is wrong with the world.

[F'losrix]

<--- Throws gasoline on the embers

If I can pretend for the moment to argue on behalf of the not-surprisingly-absent-from-this-thread right wingers:

They actually do understand that we want normalcy. In fact, it's entirely what they're fighting against - the assimilation of gay people into society (as if we weren't already a part of society already, but I digress...), because they mistakenly believe that the things we want as part & parcel of that normalcy are radically different from their own desires.

They don't get that we want our children to be safe. (Heck, a lot of them still don't even get the idea that we have children).

They don't understand that we value our families or that many of our values are the same.

They refuse to acknowledge that some of us are deeply religious or faithful supporters of our church.

They're deaf to the message that some of us believe that stable families make for a more stable society.

They still find even the slightest expressions of affection between us to be so shocking that they mistakenly assume the natural progression of this is that we're going to insist on having sex openly in public.

They don't even begin to comprehend how sick we are of having to publicly fight for our civil rights, or how tired we are of having to educate people about the reality that we don't (can't) recruit, don't all have promiscuous, anonymous sex with thousands of partners, that most of us have never had an STD, and that the only 'choices' involved with our sexuality are the same ones they face (who, when, where & how).

And why don't they get any of this? Edit: As I continue to ponder, I keep coming up with more reasons.

1) Lack of realistic & accurate media exposure. All they see are the most outrageous people on the fringe and they just assume it must be a fair representation.

2) Lack of exposure to 'normal' appearing & acting gay people. Or rather, not realizing they're exposed to them all the time because of the fact that they don't stand out and don't go ranting publicly about being gay.

3) Subconscious anxiety (or in some cases outright fear) surrounding our perceived differences being so strong that it blinds them to reality. We can never underestimate the power of fear - it's a major player that sometimes contributes positively to the survival of all human beings in certain situations, after all.

4) They just don't want to because it would be too upsetting to realize that most of what they've been taught to believe about us by well-meaning but seriously misguided parents, teachers, priests, etc. is utter bulls**t.

[Enoch]

^^^ Good post Skeptical :-)

You know, it still amazes me that no one has come in to disagree with the contentions of the post.

[Shady]

Dammit! I knew them homo-sexuals had an agenda. There it is in all it's horrific glory! Good thing I brought my club and torch- so we can administer some good old fashioned justice to end this nonsense.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

I'm thinking now I should have a heterosexual female agenda... just so I can keep up. ;)

Good article, Uriel.

[00timh]

You want a reply from a heterosexual....? I think this is somewhat of a troll post. What is your intention here? Why are you asking "where are all of the anti gay homophobes? " That implies to me that you are looking for a confrontation.

The entire article, save for the last paragraph which pretty much destroys all of its good and noble intentions is about not wanting to be in confrontation with society. It is about normalcy.

I personally have no qualms about gay people or issues involving homosexuals. I will however state my opinions on where I feel we are in terms of society in regards to homosexuality and sometime you may not agree with me.

This article, the way I see it is about how the gross overgeneralizations and stereotypes are not representative of gay people in general. I have always agreed with this. What destroys this article is the last paragraph which then goes on and talks about the heterosexual agenda. While it is most likely purposefully exaggerated, it cycles you right back into generalizations and stereotypes which it works so hard to dispel.

In response to some of Skeptical Mystics assertions which are not totally inacurate but suffer from the same media driven hysteria which plagues gay people and the many of you who do wish the very things in this "gay agenda. "

the media which always shines its money and ratings driven spotlight on the extremists does the same thing with homophobes. It leaves the impression that most heterosexuals feel these feelings of fear and insecurity of our own sexuality. It makes gay people feel that society is more at odds with them then it actually is. Just as it makes many heterosexual people feel that the drama queens so often characterized in tv shows and movies is the average gay guy.

Most heterosexuals have been around gay people, through work, family or family of friends to know that not all of you are like that. We do not live in this hetero only bubble nearly as much as you might think we do. There are some, and there are some who are the stereo typical homophobes doing Gods work to irradicate the evil of homosexuality. That is not the average hetero sexual. I can tell you from living in an area where homosexuality is widely accepted and an area which is conservative and religous in nature, there is not the fear and hatred of gay people you think there is. I'm not saying that it does not exist or that you live in equality but people are not as hell bent over your sexuality as you think they are.

[LDA]

There's far too much sarcasm for me to even follow that.

[F'losrix]

00timh wrote: What destroys this article is the last paragraph which then goes on and talks about the heterosexual agenda. While it is most likely purposefully exaggerated, it cycles you right back into generalizations and stereotypes which it works so hard to dispel.
While I don't wholly disagree with this statement, I have to point out that the article says specifically "Christian neoconservative heterosexual agenda". Whether the writer meant those to be taken as describing a very specific group or was making a swipe at all Christians, all neoconservatives, and all heterosexuals is something that I think is open to interpretation (or misinterpretation) and thus open to debate. I took it as being aimed at a very specific group, not all members of each group mentioned. Even so, I think you're right - it's still a generalization of sorts and does hurt the overall thrust of the article. If nothing else, I think it's illustrative of just how much misunderstanding and distrust exists between the various groups with which people identify themselves as members.

Quote: I can tell you from living in an area where homosexuality is widely accepted and an area which is conservative and religous in nature
Sorry, but you're going to have an extremely hard time convincing me that 'religious conservatives' widely accept homosexuality. Maybe you have elements of both groups - 'religious conservatives' and 'people accepting homosexuality' living in the same area, but I'd have to say that the latter must seriously outnumber the former for it to be 'widely accepted'.

Quote: there is not the fear and hatred of gay people you think there is.
My personal experience as a victim of anti-gay violence and harassment on more than one occasion, in more than one locality and spread over several decades informs me differently. While I'll certainly admit that I think it's possible some gay people have become over-sensitized to it, I also believe that a lot of heterosexuals have managed to pretty effectively blind themselves to all but the most unsubtle forms of it, especially when it comes to their own long-held prejudices.

Quote: I'm not saying that it does not exist or that you live in equality but people are not as hell bent over your sexuality as you think they are.
Oh, I very much beg to differ - some of them certainly are, and that's very evident in the anti-gay vitriole spewed regularly in this very forum. Most people probably aren't 'hell bent' over it, but the idea that we should be afforded true equality and treated with respect is a lot more alien to most people than they care to admit - something that becomes quickly evident to a gay person the moment the topic of homosexuality surfaces in most settings. I find that people think they're a lot more accepting than they really are.

[F'losrix]

00timh wrote: the media which always shines its money and ratings driven spotlight on the extremists does the same thing with homophobes. It leaves the impression that most heterosexuals feel these feelings of fear and insecurity of our own sexuality. It makes gay people feel that society is more at odds with them then it actually is.

(ship)

Most heterosexuals have been around gay people, through work, family or family of friends to know that not all of you are like that. We do not live in this hetero only bubble nearly as much as you might think we do.
This I wanted to address separately so it wouldn't get lost amidst the rest of my response.

I don't live in an isolated community surrounded by gay people. I am not in the least dependent on the media to inform me of how heterosexuals live, what they think, etc. because most of my social interaction is with heterosexuals. Can you say that most of your social interaction is with homosexuals? If not, then how can you even begin to claim that you understand us as well as we understand you?

While I'll certainly agree that most heterosexuals have been around gay people through work, family and friends, that doesn't necessarily mean they're exposed to the truths about our lives. Gay people censor themselves a LOT. We're taught from early childhood on that the difference in our sexual orientation is unacceptable and therefore not to be mentioned in polite society. We're taught not to complain about the unfair treatment 'cuz no one likes a whiner. We're conditioned to try to get along with others, no matter how much their subtle and not-so-subtle acts & statements of anti-gay discrimination & prejudice make us want to choke them on a daily basis. Seriously, you have no idea how much we hide from you, even when you're a close family member we consider to be more or less 'accepting'. You train us to do so with your negative reactions on the occasions when we do step outside our protective shells.

My own parents came very close to being shut out of my life completely because I was tired of having to hide from them. Not because they didn't know I was gay - they did. It was because they just didn't want to have to confront any issue whatsoever that arose from it, to be allowed to pretend that it didn't exist. Fortunately they figured out how close they were to losing me at a time when I was very much consciously contemplating cutting ties with them for good. Even so, there's still a lot that I don't discuss with them or other family members, because they aren't ready for it. Nor do I think that many of them ever will be.

So don't presume that you know us as well as you think. That so-called bubble that some heterosexuals live in, shielding them from having to acknowledge or deal with the prejudice within is very real.

[George W Bush]

of course theres an agenda: to be accepted.
just like there is a heterosexual agenda. a bisexual agenda. asexual agenda.

one thing that annoys me, as always, is the classification society has based on what attracts you.

this is just as much a fault of the gay movement as it is the hetero movement: that we all have to be SOMETHING (gay, straight, bi, etc)
and theres always someone on either side who thinks themselves keepers of everyones sexuality.

so, the subject is the gay agenda which boils down to the sexuality agenda: which is a retarded distraction of human relationships. Quit 'giving a crap' wether someone is this/that. Who cares.

so, this becomes: why the HELL is there a Gay/Lesbian thread? Because of the Gay Agenda??
I dont want to think that.

[F'losrix]

George W Bush wrote: of course theres an agenda: to be accepted.
just like there is a heterosexual agenda. a bisexual agenda. asexual agenda.

one thing that annoys me, as always, is the classification society has based on what attracts you.

this is just as much a fault of the gay movement as it is the hetero movement: that we all have to be SOMETHING (gay, straight, bi, etc)
and theres always someone on either side who thinks themselves keepers of everyones sexuality.

so, the subject is the gay agenda which boils down to the sexuality agenda: which is a retarded distraction of human relationships. Quit 'giving a crap' wether someone is this/that. Who cares.

so, this becomes: why the HELL is there a Gay/Lesbian thread? Because of the Gay Agenda??
I dont want to think that.
I mostly concur. But part of the way humans organize their thoughts around any particular topic is to classify things. And people. When it's used for genuine problem solving, it can be very helpful. When it's used to try to manipulate society and manage people's relationships, that's another matter.

As to why we have a Gay/Lesbian subforum, I pushed for it to give us a place to discuss issues specific to the problems that surround society's classification of people according to their sexuality and in specific, how that relates to this group of people thus classified. That, and to remove some of the discussion from the flamefest also known as the P&G parent forum, in hopes that the discussions would be at least marginally more rational.

[00timh]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: 00timh wrote: the media which always shines its money and ratings driven spotlight on the extremists does the same thing with homophobes. It leaves the impression that most heterosexuals feel these feelings of fear and insecurity of our own sexuality. It makes gay people feel that society is more at odds with them then it actually is.

(ship)

Most heterosexuals have been around gay people, through work, family or family of friends to know that not all of you are like that. We do not live in this hetero only bubble nearly as much as you might think we do.
This I wanted to address separately so it wouldn't get lost amidst the rest of my response.

I don't live in an isolated community surrounded by gay people. I am not in the least dependent on the media to inform me of how heterosexuals live, what they think, etc. because most of my social interaction is with heterosexuals. Can you say that most of your social interaction is with homosexuals? If not, then how can you even begin to claim that you understand us as well as we understand you?

While I'll certainly agree that most heterosexuals have been around gay people through work, family and friends, that doesn't necessarily mean they're exposed to the truths about our lives. Gay people censor themselves a LOT. We're taught from early childhood on that the difference in our sexual orientation is unacceptable and therefore not to be mentioned in polite society. We're taught not to complain about the unfair treatment 'cuz no one likes a whiner. We're conditioned to try to get along with others, no matter how much their subtle and not-so-subtle acts & statements of anti-gay discrimination & prejudice make us want to choke them on a daily basis. Seriously, you have no idea how much we hide from you, even when you're a close family member we consider to be more or less 'accepting'. You train us to do so with your negative reactions on the occasions when we do step outside our protective shells.

My own parents came very close to being shut out of my life completely because I was tired of having to hide from them. Not because they didn't know I was gay - they did. It was because they just didn't want to have to confront any issue whatsoever that arose from it, to be allowed to pretend that it didn't exist. Fortunately they figured out how close they were to losing me at a time when I was very much consciously contemplating cutting ties with them for good. Even so, there's still a lot that I don't discuss with them or other family members, because they aren't ready for it. Nor do I think that many of them ever will be.

So don't presume that you know us as well as you think. That so-called bubble that some heterosexuals live in, shielding them from having to acknowledge or deal with the prejudice within is very real. A quick couple of points to both or your responses. The last paragraph which is inflammatory in nature... Keep your mouth shut, blindly believe in the same bitter God as everyone else, married at 23, pop out 6 kids get divorced at 50 and wake up just in time to watch yourself die. If Gay people want to live in a world without hate, that is not the way to go about doing it.

I realized after re reading my post that I had not made my statement clear about living in a widely accepted community and a conservative religous one. That was two different places. San Jose Ca and where I live now (religious conservative) What I'm saying about the latter is that it is not as full of fear and hate as you think it is. Not that it doesn't exist but jut not to the level you think it does. I hve given specific references to this in the past. My younger son's pre school teacher. He lives (other than being married) just the way most gay people aspire to living. Has a long term relationship, respected generally by the comunity. Has a job which services the community in one of the most important ways possible. He does not hide his sexuality. If that happens here that is a pretty good barometer of the fact that people are not consumed by a person' sexuality but by their actions. The media portrays the average gay person in such a different light. Confronted with that image people reject homosexuality. confronted with a real person, who helps provide education to their children and is liked and respected because of the good job he does it is an entirely different story. I'm sure he has suffered the same situations as you. He is somewhat older than you. If this community does not fear or reject him, It stands to reason that my statements bear truth.

[F'losrix]

00timh wrote: A quick couple of points to both or your responses. The last paragraph which is inflammatory in nature...

Keep your mouth shut, blindly believe in the same bitter God as everyone else, married at 23, pop out 6 kids get divorced at 50 and wake up just in time to watch yourself die.

If Gay people want to live in a world without hate, that is not the way to go about doing it.
I hope you don't mind - I reformatted this a bit in the quote to try to differentiate your remarks from the paragraph to which you referred.

I agree, trading insult for insult doesn't accomplish much of anything. However, as long as extremists on the right continue to refer to us as a bunch of meth addicts hell-bent on spreading AIDS, corrupting the English language and flaunting our sexuality in their faces (whatever that means), you can bet there's going to be an angry response, with some people making the mistake of trading stereotype for stereotype.

My point is - that street runs both ways.

Quote: If that happens here that is a pretty good barometer of the fact that people are not consumed by a person' sexuality but by their actions.
I think where we differ is over to what extent this is true. I would assert that some people are fine with ignoring the gay aspect until we make a move to assert our rights or complain about their infringement. In other words, people aren't bothered so long as we 'know our place'.

Sound familiar? Something worth thinking about.

[Enoch]

00timh wrote: You want a reply from a heterosexual....? I think this is somewhat of a troll post. What is your intention here? Why are you asking "where are all of the anti gay homophobes? " That implies to me that you are looking for a confrontation.

I apologize if you took my post to mean that. It was not my intention. I posted this article in response to the numerous times I have seen reference to "the gay agenda" here on PCF. This was meant to show that there is no gay agenda, beyond the agenda of of everyone...to live a normal and happy life.

As for the responses about the fact that there hadn't been confrontation, (while I can't speak for others) I was merely attempting to show my surprise that people had not argued against the post yet. I didn't post it hoping for a confrontation, but I thought it would be inevitable.

Quote: The media which always shines its money and ratings driven spotlight on the extremists does the same thing with homophobes. It leaves the impression that most heterosexuals feel these feelings of fear and insecurity of our own sexuality. It makes gay people feel that society is more at odds with them then it actually is. Just as it makes many heterosexual people feel that the drama queens so often characterized in tv shows and movies is the average gay guy.

I agree wholeheartedly. I know that it is only a small minority of heterosexuals who are the "gay-bashing homophobes" that are bent on making life miserable for gay men and women. Likewise, I hope people know that it is only a small minority of homosexuals who are "bitchy drama queens" bent on making the "we're here, we're queer, get used to it" statement. Extremists on both sides of the aisle are the ones who get the attention.

Quote: ...there is not the fear and hatred of gay people you think there is. I'm not saying that it does not exist or that you live in equality but people are not as hell bent over your sexuality as you think they are.

I believe you are right that there is not a widespread fear and hatred of gay people. However, as said above, it is the extremists who paint the picture, for some, that there is. Likewise, whether you intended this or not, it sounds as if you are denying that anti-gay violence occurs. While I doubt you would be naive enough to believe that, let me just say one thing. It does happen, in isolated numbers. However, those isolated incidents are often of such a physically or psychologically violent nature as to cause some serious damage to the victim, or victims, involved. I, myself, have had my car keyed, bean beaten up, received death threats, had people stalk me, had things thrown at me in public (when with my boyfriend), and received plenty of verbal harassment. While those instances are not indicative of all heterosexuals, or even of all people who are against homosexuality, the perception of hatred still lingers....even though my logical mind knows better.

[00timh]

Skeptical Mystic wrote: 00timh wrote: A quick couple of points to both or your responses. The last paragraph which is inflammatory in nature...

Keep your mouth shut, blindly believe in the same bitter God as everyone else, married at 23, pop out 6 kids get divorced at 50 and wake up just in time to watch yourself die.

If Gay people want to live in a world without hate, that is not the way to go about doing it.
I hope you don't mind - I reformatted this a bit in the quote to try to differentiate your remarks from the paragraph to which you referred.

Quote: I agree, trading insult for insult doesn't accomplish much of anything. However, as long as extremists on the right continue to refer to us as a bunch of meth addicts hell-bent on spreading AIDS, corrupting the English language and flaunting our sexuality in their faces (whatever that means), you can bet there's going to be an angry response, with some people making the mistake of trading stereotype for stereotype.

My point is - that street runs both ways.



Quote: If that happens here that is a pretty good barometer of the fact that people are not consumed by a person' sexuality but by their actions.
I think where we differ is over to what extent this is true. I would assert that some people are fine with ignoring the gay aspect until we make a move to assert our rights or complain about their infringement. In other words, people aren't bothered so long as we 'know our place'.

Sound familiar? Something worth thinking about. Even within this neo conservative religous sect there are many who are not anti gay to the point of hatred. I once dated anextremely religious woman last year. So much so that it basically killed the relationship. She was also very liberal. Very anti war, anti Bush. She was also anti gay, not out of a hatred but just in the realm of marriage. She had no problem with them living together discreetly. I asked her once how many in her congregation were Republican and democrat. She said she wasn't sure but thought it was close to 50-50. Almost all did not want war in Iraq although some felt it necessary. There were no big political sermons and the church (methodist) had no official backing of Bush or Kerry during the election. I myself have been to church enough times, my father was baptist, my mother is agnostic and my ex wife and her entire family is hardcore catholic. I was married in a catholic church. I did not convert to Catholicism. again, the sermons did not go into any great anti gay agenda. not much into politics either. I can't ever remember any of the congregations backing any particular party or nominee. I know there are some churches that do this.

those who do have strong anti gay feelings usually do come from a religious background but I would say a majority of the people, at least in my area did not have strong feelings about this. I would imagine that a majority of them were against gay marriage. Against homosexuality to the point of hatred would have been a minority. the point is that as far as regular church goers They are not just republicans and they do not obsess about homosexuality.

As for the statement about people being "ignorant and being fine as long as long as they know their place" I guess when people such as my son's pre school teacher and others who live similarly, I know of a few others but only actually know one of them who is a nurse who also works for the state but in a different residence. Over the years I have worked with him numerous times either when I subbed at the residence he works in or vice versa. when these people blend in with society, have public service jobs and people basically leave them alone, it is hard for many to see why gay people get so riled up. Yeah, there are issues such as marriage and insurance and wills. They are living together as couples, working and being a part of society. So much of the basic lifestyle that they want to lead, they are achieving.

[F'losrix]

00timh wrote: the point is that as far as regular church goers They are not just republicans and they do not obsess about homosexuality.
I never said anything to this effect. That said, my experience has been that while most may not obsess, when the topic does arise, the reaction is nearly always quite negative. It varies some between denominations and likewise churches within a particular denomination, but overall it's still a very negative reaction and completely lopsided when compared with their reaction to other things labeled as 'sin'. If it were just a matter of it being the way they feel about it in the context of their personal faith it might not be so bad, but it rarely seems to end there.

Quote: As for the statement about people being "ignorant
\/ I did NOT say 'ignorant' (which I'm sure some people are going to translate as uneducated or stupid). I said ignoring, as in pretending it doesn't exist or doesn't matter. Huge difference.

Quote: They are living together as couples, working and being a part of society. So much of the basic lifestyle that they want to lead, they are achieving.
It's not enough. This idea that we should be content with our second-class status in society and keep ourselves hidden from public view is what many gay people find unacceptable. That's what gets us riled up.