Political Crossfire Forums

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Sailor Moon wrote: I seriously want to know where, for anybody who believes a conception is a non life, you got that from...

Was that what you learned in health class? Seriously.. This is a real question, and I demand answers.
Where is the "No, but It's still a non-life" obtion?

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Who taught you that it is a non life?

Doomsayer · Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 8

Helena' wrote: Where is the "No, but It's still a non-life" obtion?
I'm going to do everything in my unholy power to give you aids or something. I hate you most of all..

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

Sailor Moon wrote: I seriously want to know where, for anybody who believes a conception is a non life, you got that from...

Was that what you learned in health class? Seriously.. This is a real question, and I demand answers.

It isa life, because it meets all 6 scientific aspects that classify living beings. However, I do not consider it human, so I support the morning after pill.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Sailor Moon wrote: I seriously want to know where, for anybody who believes a conception is a non life, you got that from...

Was that what you learned in health class? Seriously.. This is a real question, and I demand answers.

Yes any chicken egg eaten is murder...

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

Damnit I accidentally clicked on yes. I meant to hit that it is a life, as I said before.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Who gives a rats ass what our national communistically instructed health teacher said...

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Sailor Moon wrote: Who taught you that it is a non life?
I did.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I seriously want to know where, for anybody who believes a conception is a non life, you got that from...

Was that what you learned in health class? Seriously.. This is a real question, and I demand answers.

It isa life, because it meets all 6 scientific aspects that classify living beings. However, I do not consider it human, so I support the morning after pill.

Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Organs are developed, just as sentience is. amoebas dont grow into multi system organisms, while zygotes so (and its an embryo after only 24 hours of being alive)

So.. just because its small, its worthless?

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans? And when exactly do you think babies become sentient since that is your theory of when they become human?

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2246 Location: Edinburgh

Mycroft147 wrote: Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans?
This is completely logical fallacy. That's like me saying, "This isn't my house, because there is no picket fence outside." You respond, "The neighbors' house has a picket fence. Is it yours?" No, it's not mine. It's the neighbors'. Simply because one trait is shared does not mean that all traits are met.

The possession of internal organs is, for Sataere, but one component of being human. Simply because something contains that component does not necessarily make someone human, for him.

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

Mycroft147 wrote: Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans? And when exactly do you think babies become sentient since that is your theory of when they become human?

Well they cretainly aren't sentient until they have developed a BRAIN! And even after they have, the brain cannot control the body until the fetus is 8 weeks old.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Sataere wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans? And when exactly do you think babies become sentient since that is your theory of when they become human?

Well they cretainly aren't sentient until they have developed a BRAIN! And even after they have, the brain cannot control the body until the fetus is 8 weeks old.

Where does the brain come from? Does it just magically appear? No, it is developed, as is sentience. Just because we have no understanding of sentience in zygotes, or embryos, does not mean that it does not exist.

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

Sailor Moon wrote: Sataere wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans? And when exactly do you think babies become sentient since that is your theory of when they become human?

Well they cretainly aren't sentient until they have developed a BRAIN! And even after they have, the brain cannot control the body until the fetus is 8 weeks old.

Where does the brain come from? Does it just magically appear? No, it is developed, as is sentience. Just because we have no understanding of sentience in zygotes, or embryos, does not mean that it does not exist.

One day old zygotes are not sentient, okay? Saying that they are is a joke, you would suffer a lot of ridicule if you ever tred to convince a biologist that day-old zygotes(which lack a brain) are sentient.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

speaking of organs, I think there is an interesting point.

Is a fetus alive at conception? Yes
is a tree alive? Yes, until it dies, which they do.
Is my liver alive? Yes, otherwise I would be in trouble

Is my liver human? No. It is a human liver, but it itself is not human, although is possesses human cells
will my liver eventually become a seperate fully fuctional being? No

Will a fetus become a human with most of the traits that you and I possess, over time? Yes
Does that mean a fetus isnt a human before 2 weeks? I have no idea. Some say it is a collection of human cells so yes. Some say that although it is a collection of human cells, it only possesses the "potential" of being a human, and it hasnt realized the potential yet.

The question we should be asking is. Is it fair to disturb nature's process of transforming the simple zygote into a being like you and I? Some say yes, some say no.

You cant say that a seperate sperm or egg is the same becuase if left alone it will not become a fully functional being, while an embryo will unless tampered with.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Sataere wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Sataere wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Human refers to species. If it is not a human, then, is it a turtle?

Ha, I don't consider zygotes 'human' in regards to the fact that they have no internal organs, and are not sentient lifeforms. Sure they have human dna, but a zygote is much smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. They are no more advanced then amoebas, and therefore, i think classifying them as human is foolish.

Having internal organs is purely physical, has nothing to do with being a human being or not. Animals have internalk organs, are they humans? And when exactly do you think babies become sentient since that is your theory of when they become human?

Well they cretainly aren't sentient until they have developed a BRAIN! And even after they have, the brain cannot control the body until the fetus is 8 weeks old.

Where does the brain come from? Does it just magically appear? No, it is developed, as is sentience. Just because we have no understanding of sentience in zygotes, or embryos, does not mean that it does not exist.

One day old zygotes are not sentient, okay? Saying that they are is a joke, you would suffer a lot of ridicule if you ever tred to convince a biologist that day-old zygotes(which lack a brain) are sentient.

Funny, we used to think newborn babies were not sentient.. alot has changed.

What makes you so sure of that which you cannot measure? Youd be taking a giant leap of faith to say that you know where sentience comes from. Like I said before, it does not just magically arise. Everything is in place from the moment of conception. Everything DEVELOPS.

Youre arguing evolution. Well, sorry but no lightning hit my belly, and magically caused my son to have instant access to something that was not there before.

So... where does sentience develop from? After all, we know from simple logic that the entire process of gestation is purely developmental. So.. tell me.. where does sentience develop from? And if it DOESNT start developing from day one, then explain, in detail, when exactly sentience starts to develop, and how exactly it magically comes to be?

We didnt always think pigs were sentient too, but they are... just because you dont want to believe it, doesnt make it illogical.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Sailor Moon wrote:
One day old zygotes are not sentient, okay? Saying that they are is a joke, you would suffer a lot of ridicule if you ever tred to convince a biologist that day-old zygotes(which lack a brain) are sentient.

Funny, we used to think newborn babies were not sentient.. alot has changed.

What makes you so sure of that which you cannot measure? Youd be taking a giant leap of faith to say that you know where sentience comes from. Like I said before, it does not just magically arise. Everything is in place from the moment of conception. Everything DEVELOPS.

Youre arguing evolution. Well, sorry but no lightning hit my belly, and magically caused my son to have instant access to something that was not there before.

So... where does sentience develop from? After all, we know from simple logic that the entire process of gestation is purely developmental. So.. tell me.. where does sentience develop from? And if it DOESNT start developing from day one, then explain, in detail, when exactly sentience starts to develop, and how exactly it magically comes to be?

We didnt always think pigs were sentient too, but they are... just because you dont want to believe it, doesnt make it illogical.[/quote]

The discussion of sentience is interesting. How about a person that suffers severe brain damage and has been on life support for 15 years and has almost zero brain activity. The person still reacts to stimuli, but it has lost conciouness and cognition. Is the person still alive? Is the person still sentient? Should we kill the person even though they are possibly not sentient?

Scientist have never been able to describe conciouness of living organisms. Acids and proteins cant think, yet they make up cells. Cells cant think, yet they form your brain. Why is it that a cell by itself cannot think, but a collection of them can. Why is it that proteins and acids are completely governed and predicted by laws of chemistry and physics yet we are not. Science cannot answer these questions yet.

I have to guess that sientience (i hate using the word) forms from the get go, but I cant prove it. I cant prove that a zygot is any more alive than my liver, since both possess human cells. I can prove that a zygot does bcome a fully functional being (sientient) eventually, but I cant describe the whole science of conciousness, free thinking, or free will.

I will say this. The concept of cognition is on a sliding scale, not an absolute one. I think humans possess the most cognition out of any being on the planet. A human's congnitive ability may begin at the zygot stage and improve all the way through the mid-twenties, but I dont know that for sure.

Over my last two posts, I have posted what I know. I have more questions than answers.

Prole · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 2246 Location: Edinburgh

Sailor Moon wrote:
So... where does sentience develop from?
A ton of factors are at work to make up human consciousness/awareness/etc. A developed nervous system, which is only realized aroung the third trimester, is one of these factors. All other factors precede it.

jlrobe wrote:
A human's congnitive ability may begin at the zygot stage and improve all the way through the mid-twenties, but I dont know that for sure.
I do not believe that a human without sensory perception (such as a zygote) can have any cognitive abilities. It doesn't have any means to cognate with.