Political Crossfire Forums

[JimT]

Someone wrote to me:

Quote: Talmud Yerushalmi Berachot 2:4 [11b]; Midrash Echa Rabba 1:51 seem to say that the Messiah lived with his parents in Bethlehem. It refers to Isaiah10:34 & 11:1.

And the commentaries of Rabbi Shmu'el bar Nachmani about the day of the destruction of Beth haMikdash (the Second Temple) seem to show us that the Messiah was born before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rabbi Shmu'el bar Nachmani said, “how do we know that the Messiah was born on that day? Because it is written: “Before she travailed, she brought forth” (Isaiah 66:7) -- see Midrash Berashiet Rabbati, Wayyetse 30:41, p.84 of the MS Praag; also Midrash Paniem Ach'riem 2.6:8). And he explains that this means that the Moshiach was born before the destruction of the Temple.

Is the above information correct? It seems interesting, but I don't know anything about the Talmud. I'm just curious.

(And does someone know a good Talmud Yerushalmi (English!) online?)

Thanks

[cap'n queasy]

You might find many folks don't like to study Daniel chapter 9 for this particular purpose. But I think one should.

[Mailech]

JimT wrote: Someone wrote to me:

Quote: Talmud Yerushalmi Berachot 2:4 [11b]; Midrash Echa Rabba 1:51 seem to say that the Messiah lived with his parents in Bethlehem. It refers to Isaiah10:34 & 11:1.

And the commentaries of Rabbi Shmu'el bar Nachmani about the day of the destruction of Beth haMikdash (the Second Temple) seem to show us that the Messiah was born before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rabbi Shmu'el bar Nachmani said, “how do we know that the Messiah was born on that day? Because it is written: “Before she travailed, she brought forth” (Isaiah 66:7) -- see Midrash Berashiet Rabbati, Wayyetse 30:41, p.84 of the MS Praag; also Midrash Paniem Ach'riem 2.6:8). And he explains that this means that the Moshiach was born before the destruction of the Temple.

Is the above information correct? It seems interesting, but I don't know anything about the Talmud. I'm just curious.

(And does someone know a good Talmud Yerushalmi (English!) online?)

Thanks

I am not sure where you would find an English Talmud Yerushalmi, let alone online?

[Mailech]

I can't comment on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, but I looked at the Yerushalmi, (btw it is 17b, not 11b) First of all it says that the Mashiach was born on the day the Temple was destroyed, precluding it being Jesus, who died before it was destroyed.

Second it is allegorical. It means that the potential for the redemption began on the very day that the exile started. And in fact, in every generation there is the posibility of the Masiach coming, all that you need is for everyone to do Teshuvah, repentance.

And that is the real point, when Rav Shmuel Bar Nachmani says that the Messiah was born at the time of destruction, he is saying that G-d always makes the remedy before the disease. And that even before the destruction of the 2nd temple, the wheels are already spinning that will lead to the building of the 3rd Temple.

The fact that it says that the Messiah lives in Bethlehem, should not be so shocking, after all, he will be a decendant of David, whose ancestral lands where in Bethlehem.

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: I can't comment on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, but I looked at the Yerushalmi, (btw it is 17b, not 11b) First of all it says that the Mashiach was born on the day the Temple was destroyed, precluding it being Jesus, who died before it was destroyed.
I agree w/ your assertion that this comment (the Messiah comes when the Temple is destroyed) is allegorical, but what if the proper allegorical interpretation is slightly different than what you're proposed above..

What if instead, like Da Vince suggested, the Temple is supposed to look a little more like this:



Food for thought.. :-D

[Mailech]

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: I can't comment on Midrash Eichah Rabbah, but I looked at the Yerushalmi, (btw it is 17b, not 11b) First of all it says that the Mashiach was born on the day the Temple was destroyed, precluding it being Jesus, who died before it was destroyed.
I agree w/ your assertion that this comment (the Messiah comes when the Temple is destroyed) is allegorical, but what if the proper allegorical interpretation is slightly different than what you're proposed above..

What if instead, like Da Vince suggested, the Temple is supposed to look a little more like this:



Food for thought.. :-D

I know Ezekial's prophecy of the third temple is confusing, but I am darn sure that it does not look like that. :lol: