Political Crossfire Forums

[pharaoh]

Quote: 110% true. But what he's trying to say is that Islamic Libertarianism is actually libertarianism influenced by Islam, not the other way around.
I think what he's trying to say is that liberal Muslims like you and me are the truest of Muslims or something to that effect ...

There is nothing called "liberal muslim" Moath. He is trying to say that he likes and admire us because we dont follow exactly our religion teachings, so in that way we are liberal and so "open minded". If he is considering you and me "liberal" then he is mistaken, we are just 2 ordinary muslims trying to apply our religion correctly thats all.

Quote: As for the second part of your post...

Thanks :)

[Robin Hood]

Quote:
There is nothing called "liberal muslim" Moath. He is trying to say that he likes and admire us because we dont follow exactly our religion teachings, so in that way we are liberal and so "open minded". If he is considering you and me "liberal" then he is mistaken, we are just 2 ordinary muslims trying to apply our religion correctly thats all.

I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about politics. If a Muslim is not a libertarian then they are contravening free will, allah's gift. In order to be good Muslims we must live good lives of our own choice. If the government forces us to leave good lives then they stop us from choosing to do it and thus remove the individual goodness from the act. It also takes god's gift of free will away from others.

This means that libertarianism should be the political conclusion of Islam. Only an individualist political system makes sense after all Islam is an individiualist religion. You get into paradise on your own achievements not because you have pious neighbours.

[pharaoh]

Reason wrote: Quote:
There is nothing called "liberal muslim" Moath. He is trying to say that he likes and admire us because we dont follow exactly our religion teachings, so in that way we are liberal and so "open minded". If he is considering you and me "liberal" then he is mistaken, we are just 2 ordinary muslims trying to apply our religion correctly thats all.

I'm not talking about religion, I'm talking about politics. If a Muslim is not a libertarian then they are contravening free will, allah's gift. In order to be good Muslims we must live good lives of our own choice. If the government forces us to leave good lives then they stop us from choosing to do it and thus remove the individual goodness from the act. It also takes god's gift of free will away from others.

This means that libertarianism should be the political conclusion of Islam. Only an individualist political system makes sense after all Islam is an individiualist religion. You get into paradise on your own achievements not because you have pious neighbours.

In Islam there is no firm seperation betwen politics and religion. Every muslim should respect and apply the laws and teachings of his religions, that includes the leaders...everyone. The great thing about Islam is that its a way of life, there is nothing in this world that hasnt been addressed by the Koran or prophet Muhammed, thats why the Koran is for all times (unlike any other religion).
AGAIN, God gave us free will been one should be responsible for his/her acts or else we would all be living in a jungle. You have free will, I have free will, but if go kill every person you see walking down the street then expect to be punished in this life and in the next. If there is no punishment and laws then we wouldnt be any different from the animals.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: 110% true. But what he's trying to say is that Islamic Libertarianism is actually libertarianism influenced by Islam, not the other way around.
I think what he's trying to say is that liberal Muslims like you and me are the truest of Muslims or something to that effect ...

There is nothing called "liberal muslim" Moath. He is trying to say that he likes and admire us because we dont follow exactly our religion teachings, so in that way we are liberal and so "open minded". If he is considering you and me "liberal" then he is mistaken, we are just 2 ordinary muslims trying to apply our religion correctly thats all.

Quote: As for the second part of your post...

Thanks :)

You're right, of course. Religiously and politically, we are Muslims.

[HomoUniversalis]

Quote: On the other hand, people like you dont believe in life after death, people like you believe that this life is everything there is and that one should enjoy his life to the max, so people like you dont wanna die even if they are very old and very ill because they are afraid of dying.

You make the following statements:

1) life is everything there is
2) one should enjoy his life to the max
3) they don't want to die even if they are old and ill
4) they are afraid of dying

1: this statement is absurd of course. Many atheists have powerful beliefs, in, per example, freedom, and believe in these ideals more than they believe in the value of their own lives. There have been atheists in manholes, people who were willing to die for honour and country, despite not believing they would find more in an afterlife.
2: Muslims also believe in enjoying life to the max. If one does not find pleasure and enjoyment from his religious beliefs, he is doing something wrong. Verily, it might be difficult, but that does not mean that it is not unpleasant.
3: What is wrong with wanting to die? Do you want to die, or do you want to live, and leave up to Allah your time and death? 'wanting', one way or another is claiming ownership over something, that by your own beliefs is not yours.
4: Some, perhaps, but not all. Leaving aside the discussion whether or not it is purely natural to be afraid, or at least, worried, there are many atheists willing to die for their beliefs in freedom (or, per example, communism).

Quote: So obviously you would never understand me, you just cant.

Your beliefs recognise khafirs, some atheists might be those who may understand islam, yet are blinded by Allah from the truth. Do not be too judgemental on those whose lives belong to Allah. He must judge over them, not you.

Quote: You're right, of course. Religiously and politically, we are Muslims.

Yet today a muslim is not a one-sided topic. There are political and religious affiliations. Is this 'true' muslims one who takes the essence of muhammed's scholarship, his revolutionary nature, and fits that same revolutionary spirit in current society, or does one follow the rules he set in his book and forever remain in a conservative society of near-equality?

Mr U

[Robin Hood]

Quote:
In Islam there is no firm seperation betwen politics and religion. Every muslim should respect and apply the laws and teachings of his religions, that includes the leaders...everyone. The great thing about Islam is that its a way of life, there is nothing in this world that hasnt been addressed by the Koran or prophet Muhammed, thats why the Koran is for all times (unlike any other religion).
AGAIN, God gave us free will been one should be responsible for his/her acts or else we would all be living in a jungle. You have free will, I have free will, but if go kill every person you see walking down the street then expect to be punished in this life and in the next. If there is no punishment and laws then we wouldnt be any different from the animals.

If you murder someone then you are taking away their free will, so you can be punished by humans. If you do something that contravenes Islamic laws but don't take another's free will then Allah will deal with that after you die. If Allah gives you free will then only he should take it.

Otherwise Muslims should follow Muslim laws otherwise they aren't Muslim, but this does not involves killing homosexuals or banning alchcol drinking. It simply means that they shouldn't take part. I don't do those two things either (I drink moderately, and occasionally now) but it's not my place to ban them.