Political Crossfire Forums

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Prole wrote: Welcome to PCF, jlrobe. I agree with you regarging persuasive arguements. Arging for a premise is not merely a matter of dismissing counterpoints, but of giving valid reasons to support that premise.

thanks for the welcome. At first I came on and tried to give mycroft technical advice on how to form a persuasive argument. I think learning the art of persuasion and forming a solid argument is important in any debate. After reading some peoples posts here though, I can see some people dont want to see how to prorpely make counterpoints and rebutals to their advantage.

Whenever I enter any debate, I want to udnerstand the other side a little more. My goal isnt just to force someone to my side, but to better understand the larger picture. Isnt that why many of us our here, to understand all the thoughts on this issue.

Anyhow, thanks for welcome.

I used to be complete pro-choice, but it is fading to some degree.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Well, thats good to hear! Pro lifers tend to have been pro choice at some point.. at least the ones with the most understanding for both sides, I think..

Welcome x 2!

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Mycroft147 wrote: So far nothing posted has been convincing in the least. In the end the pro-choicers seem to have no arguments left. Im assuming that there are no sound arguments in suppprt of abortion.

hahhahahhahha, then write your paper. Actually I'll write it for you, if you even have such a paper to write.

here goes

"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

There you go. Done. Turn it in! :)

Oh yeah, throw in a couple pictures of bloody body parts, use rhetoric such as God, hell, murder, death, babies, what ever your find most effective for shock value. You dont want to bore your teacher now would you.

Man, and to think I was trying to help you write an A+ paper.

Take it from me. Dont be too one-sided. it makes you come off as un-informed. But hey, it is your paper. Good luck.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

jlrobe wrote:

I'll write it for you.

here goes

"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

There you go. Done. Turn it in! :)

Oh yeah, throw in a couple pictures of bloody body parts, use reasoning such as God, murder, death, babies, what ever your find most effective. You dont want to bore your teacher.

Man, an A+ paper.

Take it from me. Good luck.

Wow, pull a few words out of the original and........ the truth shall set you free! Free from guilt, free from hate, free from denial... FREE!

Isnt freedom wonderful?!!?!!!

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Sailor Moon wrote: jlrobe wrote:

I'll write it for you.

here goes

"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

There you go. Done. Turn it in! :)

Oh yeah, throw in a couple pictures of bloody body parts, use reasoning such as God, murder, death, babies, what ever your find most effective. You dont want to bore your teacher.

Man, an A+ paper.

Take it from me. Good luck.

Wow, pull a few words out of the original and........ the truth shall set you free! Free from guilt, free from hate, free from denial... FREE!

Isnt freedom wonderful?!!?!!!

yep :)

but for mycroft's case, writing an academic paper is all about being persuasive. Most pro-lifers who say that abortion clinic bombers are heros dont do a good job persuading me of anything :)

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Obviously, based on your post- you believe alot more than you want to let on, about abortion...

Also, I am not sure if youre saying that most pro lifers say that clinic bombers are heros, but I can tell you for a fact this is not true, if this is the assertion you are making. Most pro lifers are pro life.

I dont think you would be veering away from the pro choice standpoint if you didnt believe anything pro lifers said, either.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8771

jlrobe wrote:
"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

"I think there is no basis to outlaw abortion. Abortion is obviously not murder because murder depends on illegally taking another human life against that person's will or, in terms of medical incapacity to make the decision, against the will of the person's next of kin. Even if one assumes, illogically, that a fetus is deserving of the same rights and protections from conception, one would need to look to the mother as the next of kin as the rightful person to legally make decisions regarding the care and continued life of said fetus, since the fetus is incapable of making the decision independently. Moreover, since abortion is legal, it is not murder since it does not involve taking another life illegally. The government is not being prejudicial and is respecting a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, and should, therefore, keep abortion legal."

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

UrielsFyre wrote: jlrobe wrote:
"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

"I think there is no basis to outlaw abortion. Abortion is obviously not murder because murder depends on illegally taking another human life against that person's will or, in terms of medical incapacity to make the decision, against the will of the person's next of kin. Even if one assumes, illogically, that a fetus is deserving of the same rights and protections from conception, one would need to look to the mother as the next of kin as the rightful person to legally make decisions regarding the care and continued life of said fetus, since the fetus is incapable of making the decision independently. Moreover, since abortion is legal, it is not murder since it does not involve taking another life illegally. The government is not being prejudicial and is respecting a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, and should, therefore, keep abortion legal."

In the great scheme of things, "incapacity' is only relative to what your own perspective sees. For instance, you can still see the light of stars that burned out thousands of years ago, correct?

We cannot put measurement on a great many things, on such large and small scales, due to our incapacity with technology, as well as our perception.

Think of it this way-

Think of the solar system, and people on earth building. Think of the sun. We get all of our power from the sun. So, the solar system kinda looks similar to a cell. Yep! a cell!

http://www.cellsalive.com/cells/animcell.htm

It took us forever to even find out cells and germs even exist.

So anyways, we cant guage whats happening on such a small level... for all we know the solar system is as small as a cell, a part of a bigger process.. in the eyes of some other being, anyways... hope we dont get aborted just because they dot know how much we value our own lives.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8771

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: jlrobe wrote:
"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

"I think there is no basis to outlaw abortion. Abortion is obviously not murder because murder depends on illegally taking another human life against that person's will or, in terms of medical incapacity to make the decision, against the will of the person's next of kin. Even if one assumes, illogically, that a fetus is deserving of the same rights and protections from conception, one would need to look to the mother as the next of kin as the rightful person to legally make decisions regarding the care and continued life of said fetus, since the fetus is incapable of making the decision independently. Moreover, since abortion is legal, it is not murder since it does not involve taking another life illegally. The government is not being prejudicial and is respecting a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, and should, therefore, keep abortion legal."

In the great scheme of things, "incapacity' is only relative to what your own perspective sees. For instance, you can still see the light of stars that burned out thousands of years ago, correct?

We cannot put measurement on a great many things, on such large and small scales, due to our incapacity with technology, as well as our perception.

Think of it this way-

Think of the solar system, and people on earth building. Think of the sun. We get all of our power from the sun. So, the solar system kinda looks similar to a cell. Yep! a cell!

http://www.cellsalive.com/cells/animcell.htm

It took us forever to even find out cells and germs even exist.

So anyways, we cant guage whats happening on such a small level... for all we know the solar system is as small as a cell, a part of a bigger process.. in the eyes of some other being, anyways... hope we dont get aborted just because they dot know how much we value our own lives.

How very philisophic. But, that really meant nothing to "incapacity to make medical decisions." We are talking about legality and physical ability to inform health care providers of one's wishes.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

It has everything to do with it, because youre entire premise is that the unborn human cant make decisions for himself. How would you know this?

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

UrielsFyre wrote: jlrobe wrote:
"I think there is no basis for abortion. Abortion is obviosly murder becasue no one can convince me otherwise, and murder is against the law. Since abortion is murder but is legeal, I feel that the government is being prejudicial and should therefore make abortion illegal"

"I think there is no basis to outlaw abortion. Abortion is obviously not murder because murder depends on illegally taking another human life against that person's will or, in terms of medical incapacity to make the decision, against the will of the person's next of kin. Even if one assumes, illogically, that a fetus is deserving of the same rights and protections from conception, one would need to look to the mother as the next of kin as the rightful person to legally make decisions regarding the care and continued life of said fetus, since the fetus is incapable of making the decision independently. Moreover, since abortion is legal, it is not murder since it does not involve taking another life illegally. The government is not being prejudicial and is respecting a woman's right to make her own medical decisions, and should, therefore, keep abortion legal."

Hence, why she will get a horrible grade, if she writes the paper, like i think she will. Sure, she will put more words in it and make it 5 pages of the same argument, but it isnt a very strong message.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

In the end, the person is trying to successfully write a paper, so i am not arguing about the philosophical points. I am trying to construct a terrific argument for her. But after reading her posts, the short paragraph i wrote was just to demonstrate how her 5 page paper will come off.

Anyhow, I have other opinions of course.

Doomsayer · Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 8

What pisses me off most about liberals is not thier stance on abortion but rather thier priorities on it..

Coporations have us by the balls..
Our goverment won't even let us take a s**t without it offending someone and putting us through hell..

But all they care about is if they can suck a fetus out of a tube or not..

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8771

Sailor Moon wrote: It has everything to do with it, because youre entire premise is that the unborn human cant make decisions for himself. How would you know this?

You can't possibly be arguing that a doctor is able to ask a fetus whether or not they want to be aborted. Is that really what you are saying?

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: It has everything to do with it, because youre entire premise is that the unborn human cant make decisions for himself. How would you know this?

You can't possibly be arguing that a doctor is able to ask a fetus whether or not they want to be aborted. Is that really what you are saying?

Nope theyre not able to ask... oh but wait- then theres the viability bit.. you yourself said that women should be dictated how to run their bodies and what medical choices they should be allowed should be made for them, after viability.. oops! Did you ask those fetuses what they wanted? No of course not. Did THEY tell the doctors that they didnt want to be aborted? NO, of COURSE NOT!

Use your imagination now... surely you will, since our idea of sentience before birth is only measurable at a certain stage- the stage thats closest to birth...

Go back one day.. now two... how does sentience develop? does it just show up out of the blue one day? It must exist in the first place to develop. One does not acquire some magical ability to be conscious of ones self at some arbitrary point in gestation. Its already there when the human is conceived.

I hope youre not saying that somehow, the magical sentience fairy flys down and casts a spell that allows a child to suddenly think... that would be downright stupid. I know youre not stupid, UF.

Its been a great debate, BTW... I'm more than willing to continue if you dont feel utterly defeated at this point. But.. if you want to start telling fairy tales, then thats fine also... :lol:

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8771

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: It has everything to do with it, because youre entire premise is that the unborn human cant make decisions for himself. How would you know this?

You can't possibly be arguing that a doctor is able to ask a fetus whether or not they want to be aborted. Is that really what you are saying?

Nope theyre not able to ask... oh but wait- then theres the viability bit.. you yourself said that women should be dictated how to run their bodies and what medical choices they should be allowed should be made for them, after viability.. oops! Did you ask those fetuses what they wanted? No of course not. Did THEY tell the doctors that they didnt want to be aborted? NO, of COURSE NOT!

Use your imagination now... surely you will, since our idea of sentience before birth is only measurable at a certain stage- the stage thats closest to birth...

Go back one day.. now two... how does sentience develop? does it just show up out of the blue one day? It must exist in the first place to develop. One does not acquire some magical ability to be conscious of ones self at some arbitrary point in gestation. Its already there when the human is conceived.

I hope youre not saying that somehow, the magical sentience fairy flys down and casts a spell that allows a child to suddenly think... that would be downright stupid. I know youre not stupid, UF.

Its been a great debate, BTW... I'm more than willing to continue if you dont feel utterly defeated at this point. But.. if you want to start telling fairy tales, then thats fine also... :lol:

Oh, trust me, I am far from defeated.

Since you bring up sentience, I'll go there. Sentience is determined by brain wave activity, primarily. While other indicators, such as heartbeats, a nervous system, developed internal organs, etc play a part, it is primarily brian wave activity that determines sentience. It is the brain that controls all else, from feelings to biological functions.

But, where does the brainwave activity start? While I would never claim to know the specific time, we know that during gestation a fetus will develop brainwave activity. But, using your logic, go back a day...then two. Did the brainwave fairy cast a spell? No. But, is there brainwave activity at conception? No, that would be "downright stupid."

Sentience and brainwave activity develop gradually. Sentience is dependent on that first spark of electricity in the brain of a developing child. Prior to the biological ability of a developing child to have brainwave activity, it would be illogical to consider it a sentient being.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Sailor Moon wrote: Obviously, based on your post- you believe alot more than you want to let on, about abortion...

Also, I am not sure if youre saying that most pro lifers say that clinic bombers are heros, but I can tell you for a fact this is not true, if this is the assertion you are making. Most pro lifers are pro life.

I dont think you would be veering away from the pro choice standpoint if you didnt believe anything pro lifers said, either.

Also, pro-choice and pro-life is a spectrum. I strongly dislike any extremist. ANY!!! I know extremist who want to kill blacks (which I am), gays, muslims, jews, whoever. I feel that extremist formed the KKK and helped kill my ancestors, so I really dont like ANY fundamentalism or ANY extremism for any God, country, or IDEAL.

Now, for that matter, I like pro-lifers and like to hear them out if they are not exteme. It is the non-extreme pro-lifers that told me their side in a non extreme way. We had intelligent converstaions and I got to learn more about the issue. You sound like you used to be pro-choice, made a mistake, and are now extreme pro-lifer. Not all pro-lifers (like my mother) are as extreme as some of the people on this board.

Now, I fully EXPECT all pro-lifers to denounce abortion bombers before they say ANYTHING. Had people have said "I dont condone abortion bombings, but this is what they were thinking...." then fine, but fi you dont speak out against it strongly, you come off as extreme. An extemist to me is going to turn me further away from your cause, and is going to turn the supreme court further against you to.

Please dont say that you know my stance. I have nevre stated my stance in detail. I have always tried to shed some light on the pro-choice side, but not say one is better than the other!!

Again, I dont think all pro-lifers support bombers. In my eyes, almost none do, but coming to this board and hearing people almost justify it is deplorable.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Sailor Moon wrote: Obviously, based on your post- you believe alot more than you want to let on, about abortion...

Also, I am not sure if youre saying that most pro lifers say that clinic bombers are heros, but I can tell you for a fact this is not true, if this is the assertion you are making. Most pro lifers are pro life.

I dont think you would be veering away from the pro choice standpoint if you didnt believe anything pro lifers said, either.

If you want to know my full stance on abortion I would be happy to tell you. Like I said, I am still pro-choice, but not as much as i used to be.

jlrobe · Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 118

Sailor Moon wrote: Obviously, based on your post- you believe alot more than you want to let on, about abortion...

Also, I am not sure if youre saying that most pro lifers say that clinic bombers are heros, but I can tell you for a fact this is not true, if this is the assertion you are making. Most pro lifers are pro life.

I dont think you would be veering away from the pro choice standpoint if you didnt believe anything pro lifers said, either.

I dont think pro-lifers feel abortion bombers are heros. I also dont think muslims in Iraq think terroritst are heros. I do believe that Iraq's empathize with the terrorists and think that although their tactics our bad, the terrorism is for a good cause.

I feel pro-lifers can feel the same. Although they wouldnt carry the bomb themselves, they can strongly empathize with the bomber, and believe that the bomber acted for a good cause.

I feel Muslims that dont support Jihad should speak out strongly against it, but they wont. I feel white people in the south should have villified the KKK before they became too powerful, but they too empathized with its cause, although not agreeing with its tactics. ANd now I feel some pro-lifers are the same. Instead of speaking out heavily and disttancing themselves like they should, they empathize with them while not considering them heroes.

So, there you go. My explanatoin in a nutshell.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Yep. Thats pretty much it. Thanks!