Political Crossfire Forums

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Nelson · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Any GOOD pro-death arguments?

Mycroft147 wrote: Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Assuming that abortion will go on even if abortion is illegalized, as nearly any rational person can logically deduce:

The daughter of any family who is rich will just fly to Canada or Europe for an abortion. Anyone whose child is poor will most likely be forced to perform an illegal abortion which is far more dangerous for the mother than a procedure performed in a hospital.

Banning abortion does not affect the richest Americans, only the poorest ones.

SpellJammer · Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 84

How do you figure? Most teenagers that get abortions are upper-middle class white females..

Sage Orator · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 334

I'm not sure what you would deem good. There are many different view points. I will share mine, I believe that the choice should be the woman's. I oppose any abortions past 20 weeks which only makes up about 2% of abortions. This is because at this time the fetus can be recognized as a living thing. It has a functional nervous system, all organs exist, the baby can breath, it can make conscious movements, and basically fits all of the characteristics of a living thing.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Nelson wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Assuming that abortion will go on even if abortion is illegalized, as nearly any rational person can logically deduce:

The daughter of any family who is rich will just fly to Canada or Europe for an abortion. Anyone whose child is poor will most likely be forced to perform an illegal abortion which is far more dangerous for the mother than a procedure performed in a hospital.

Banning abortion does not affect the richest Americans, only the poorest ones.

Yes abortion will go on if it is illegal. So does murder, rape, etc. Should we legalize these things to make them safer for all concerned? I for one say no.

demosthenes67 · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject:

I agree w/ the orator on some points but I still don't like the idea of a potential life being snuffed out before given a chance to live. I sort of hate myself for saying this because it's unlike me, but what if Einstein had been aborted? Edison? Franklin? Washington? Hitler? Stalin? Some of those aborted "fetuses" could've grown to change the world, for better, or for worse. But some selfish teenager decided it'd be easier on them to just kill the kid rather than have it and give him/her up for adoption. You have your opinions and I have mine; mine aren't going to change any time soon.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Sage Orator wrote: I'm not sure what you would deem good. There are many different view points. I will share mine, I believe that the choice should be the woman's. I oppose any abortions past 20 weeks which only makes up about 2% of abortions. This is because at this time the fetus can be recognized as a living thing. It has a functional nervous system, all organs exist, the baby can breath, it can make conscious movements, and basically fits all of the characteristics of a living thing.

YOUR characteristics of a living thing maybe. Technically,scientifically, it is alive at conception.

Your criteria discriminates against humans who do not have all their organs, cannot breath without the help of machines, are paralysed, or have damaged nervous systems. According to you its ok to kill all adults with these problems. Think things through a bit before you say them.

Nelson · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Any GOOD pro-death arguments?

Mycroft147 wrote: Nelson wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Assuming that abortion will go on even if abortion is illegalized, as nearly any rational person can logically deduce:

The daughter of any family who is rich will just fly to Canada or Europe for an abortion. Anyone whose child is poor will most likely be forced to perform an illegal abortion which is far more dangerous for the mother than a procedure performed in a hospital.

Banning abortion does not affect the richest Americans, only the poorest ones.

Yes abortion will go on if it is illegal. So does murder, rape, etc. Should we legalize these things to make them safer for all concerned? I for one say no.

What a foolish response. It is nice to always think ideologically and never think about the reality of a situation, but people in 'real life' don't have that option.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

demosthenes67 wrote: I agree w/ the orator on some points but I still don't like the idea of a potential life being snuffed out before given a chance to live. I sort of hate myself for saying this because it's unlike me, but what if Einstein had been aborted? Edison? Franklin? Washington? Hitler? Stalin? Some of those aborted "fetuses" could've grown to change the world, for better, or for worse. But some selfish teenager decided it'd be easier on them to just kill the kid rather than have it and give him/her up for adoption. You have your opinions and I have mine; mine aren't going to change any time soon.

So you feel bad about abortion because some of the aborted babies could have been great people. Talk about discrimination...shouldnt all people have the same right to life, whether or not they will be important figures in history? And by the way dont clog up this thread if you dont even have any arguments for abortion. thanks.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Nelson wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Nelson wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Assuming that abortion will go on even if abortion is illegalized, as nearly any rational person can logically deduce:

The daughter of any family who is rich will just fly to Canada or Europe for an abortion. Anyone whose child is poor will most likely be forced to perform an illegal abortion which is far more dangerous for the mother than a procedure performed in a hospital.

Banning abortion does not affect the richest Americans, only the poorest ones.

Yes abortion will go on if it is illegal. So does murder, rape, etc. Should we legalize these things to make them safer for all concerned? I for one say no.

What a foolish response. It is nice to always think ideologically and never think about the reality of a situation, but people in 'real life' don't have that option.

Im glad that you think applying logic is foolish. I simply applied the same logic to other situations. You obviously dont have any defense so you go off the point and say i ignore the reality. The reality is that millions of humans are murdered legally. Your logic is flawed. Reply if you have a reasonable answer.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

90% of illegal abortions were performed by physicians in good medical standing, according to the director of Planned Parenthood, as declared and published in a medical Journal in 1960.

And yes- the only good arguments available to you are those that belong to the pro life side, as the pro choice side seems to have some sort of majority/ or unanimous gag rule concerning the truths about abortion, IMHO. Notice, I say most, not all...

I would suggest writing a pro life paper. You seem to have alot of factual information, based on your statement, so I would suggest writing the paper pro life. If you need more info, we have a sticky here.

Question- Is this some sort of paper you have to write? Do you HAVE to write a pro choice paper? This seems a bit outrageous that some professor would be so forceful to do this, but I can believe it...

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Sailor Moon wrote: 90% of illegal abortions were performed by physicians in good medical standing, according to the director of Planned Parenthood, as declared and published in a medical Journal in 1960.

And yes- the only good arguments available to you are those that belong to the pro life side, as the pro choice side seems to have some sort of majority/ or unanimous gag rule concerning the truths about abortion, IMHO. Notice, I say most, not all...

I would suggest writing a pro life paper. You seem to have alot of factual information, based on your statement, so I would suggest writing the paper pro life. If you need more info, we have a sticky here.

Question- Is this some sort of paper you have to write? Do you HAVE to write a pro choice paper? This seems a bit outrageous that some professor would be so forceful to do this, but I can believe it...

haha sorry, i guess i made it unclear. I just have to write an argumentative paper. I chose abortion, and im going to do it pro-life. Its just that i want to present both sides and refute every pro-abortion argument that i can find.

Coral · Joined: 14 Apr 2004 Posts: 2759 Location: Hold 'em, Texas

Mycroft147 wrote: Does anyone here have an actual sound, logical argument for abortion? Im doing a paper on it, so far i can't find anything that is even minorly convincing to me.

Take the C- and move on.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Well, thats really going to be a challenge. I really want to suggest a few links for you:

http://www.clinicworker.com/WhatToReport.html

http://www.afterabortion.info/news/abortiondeaths.html

http://gargaro.com/911.html

http://www.afaofpa.org/Abortion.htm

http://bibleprobe.com/abortion.htm

http://www.abortionfacts.com/

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm

http://www.lifenews.com/nat468.html

http://www.detnews.com/2005/metro/0501/05/A01-50709.htm

http://www.circleofprayer.com/abortion-survival-testimonies.html

http://www.mfc.org/contents/article.asp?id=1379

http://www.afterabortion.info/hope/arti61.htm

http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.htm

-This is direct from planned parenthood- with a list of risks and instances, which to my calculations equate to at least 25,000 injuries to women annually due to abortion...possibly more, although only 4 instances of risk are given (chich I feel, also helps keep women misinformed)

http://www.plannedparenthood.com/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/pub-abortion-first-trimester.xml

http://realchoice.0catch.com/unwantedabortions.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30098

http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/wpp2002/WPP2002-HIGHLIGHTSrev1.PDF#search='UN%20projected%20population%202002'

http://www.alarryross.com/15116%20pdf%20Dudley%20(2).pdf#search='norma%20McCorvey%20Supreme%20Court%20petition'

http://barney.gonzaga.edu/~nmacklin/roenomore/pressinfo.html

Anyways, theres a bunch of them, and it might take some time to wade through them all, so I would suggest adding them to your favorites, and then skimming through all of them until you find the ones, or at least the general ideas that will help you to put your paper together best for you..

I have included the myths of "safety" from legalization of abortions, on the CDC page, Table 19 shows how many died the year abortion was made legal (antibiotics brought in, in the 40s is really what helped women fight the infections afterwards, and they still help) to the myth of overpopulation, to girl scouts and planned parenthood being together now, to clinic crime, abortion survivors, injured women, clinic rape victims, Norma McCorvey being deceived by her attorneys, her pro life stance, and much much more. Plus theres more in the sticky, and I suggest looking up clinics webpages, to see the misleading and often coercive information they put on there- and notice the way type of language they use, and how most of them wont answer questions until you have already paid, etc...

The pro life case is HUGE. I mean, REALLY BIG. This is turning into a worldwide effort from abortionists to reduce the population, and to make big bucks. Good Luck to you. I hope all this helps. Please let me know.

TheXCure · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 2 Location: texas

Pro-Death?
how about pro-women's rights....

As for me, I want to keep my rights. I'm not goverment property.

women have the right to choose what goes on in their bodies and who uses it at what time. To grant the fetus the right to use her body to live against her will would not only be sexist, but it would be unconstitutional as it would be granting special rights to the fetus.

and so on...

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

TheXCure wrote: Pro-Death?
how about pro-women's rights....

As for me, I want to keep my rights. I'm not goverment property.

women have the right to choose what goes on in their bodies and who uses it at what time. To grant the fetus the right to use her body to live against her will would not only be sexist, but it would be unconstitutional as it would be granting special rights to the fetus.

and so on...

Fine, "Pro-women-having-the-right-to-murder-their-children"

Happy?

I know some people want the right to murder. You are not government property. And humans at any stage are not anyones property. Embryos are not there mothers property.

Your only argument here is that fetuses should not have special rights. Right now they have no rights. Illegalizing abortion would give them their basic right to life. Letting the fetus live is not granting it special rights, just the same rights that you have. If it is against the mothers will for a fetus to be living inside of her, she should have thought of that before having sex.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Eh- autonomy really doesnt include the peeling open of the womans shell to pull out the life inside, anyways.. I reckon they could open her shell up (her uterus) as that is HERS, and that could be considered autonomous, but that which is inside, is not a posession... and therefore should not be tampered with whatsoever...

Clearly, the fetus doesnt own the shell, or the uterus, whatever... but that doesnt mean that the opposite is true. The autonomy bit is difficult, because her body is still hers, therefore what she does to HER BODY is her business, but the whole part about killing the additional body within hers, with intent to harm, is just abuse, and NOT a constitutional right, in the slightest.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

heres an interesting hypothetical situation. Take siamese twins. Can twin one cut off twin two even if it causes twin two death? doesnt twin one have a right to do whatever it wants to its own body?

No? then obviously the mother cant do whatever she wants to her body if it affects another human. Apply your logic to similar scenarios before you consider it foolproof.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Thank you sailormoon for the websites. they will definitely come in handy. the more information and documentation i can get the better.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Well, I think both siameese twins have the rights to do what they want to their own bodies, really- as this scenario is survival of the fittest... But you are also talking about two people who SHARE a body... if the one siamese twin never developed enough to even protect itself from the strong twin, then it would surely die. Just like a pregnant woman, having a delicate life inside of her, the life may not survive, if it cannot handle the activities of the woman. Thats why some women have to go on bedrest, and such, because they have problems that would otherwise kill the fetus. So a woman who didnt even know she was pregnant could go on a roller coaster or something, and the delicate life could miscarry...

I wasnt really serious about opening up a womans uterus, either. It wouldnt happen, anyways, no doctor would take the risk at opening a uterus just to risk infection, litigation, etc, while not being allowed to touch the unborn life inside. The only way they would even do this, if abortion was illegal, is if she had some medical problem to work on in the uterus, and they would probably cut her open, even.

I'm glad you saw the sites. I hope they help you out! Youre welcome, anytime.