Political Crossfire Forums

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

jeechoscopy wrote: Showboat wrote: As is that. Also the universe isn't "steadily expanding", the rate of expansion has been in decline since the big bang. You shouldn't try and prove religion with science as if you go down that road a lot of science will "prove" your religion wrong. I thought it was about faith anyway?

Though most of the scientists "believe" that the universe is expanding but some rejects the idea... It's because they don't have any device to observe the universe due to time and space...

No, science proves most of religious teachings. You can take morals...
For this I have Islam
Quran is totally scientific proven book. Most of the theories were already in Quran discovered later.
www.harunyahya.com

I will not waste my time reading a webpage that is denying evolution.
I am sure I could find hundreds of links/books that support evolution,
but it would be a waste of time.

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

Glorfindel wrote: a very recent scnietific fact says that the universe is expanding... that fact is found in the Quran and has been in the Quran and muslims knew that 1400 years ago..how did mohammed come up with that fact?

there are many more

check this website to see

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

peace

The following is from the website you recommended,

"The scientific discoveries of the 20th century that followed swiftly, one after the other, in the fields of astrophysics and biology have proved that life and the universe were created. As the theses of Darwinism collapsed, the Big Bang theory has shown that the universe was created from nothing. Discoveries have revealed that there is a great design and fine-tuning in the material world and this has categorically demonstrated the groundless nature of the claims of materialism."

This bit of text says that evolution has collapsed and that it has been proven that life and the universe were created by someone. Everyone who is intrested in science should know that this is a lie.

Evolution has not been disproven.

Science do not know exactly how life started.

And it has never been proven that a divine being created the universe.

You may believe that God is responsible for the Big Bang and that he created the first life on earth, but it has not been proven using science.
You can even argue that if God created the universe in thia way it is a very elegant solution, but you can't prove it.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: Quote: What evidence are you looking for? I hope its not seeing god cause we were created to worship god without seeing or hearing him, this life is a test and seeing or hearing god would be like cheating in an exam

So what about Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. They must be cheats then. They got it easy didn't they, no doubting for them, eh?

they did not get it easy... they were chosen to deliver the message

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote:
It also says the universe was created 14 Billion years ago, not 6000 or whatever. You can't use science as "proof" when you like it and dismiss science when you don't.

actually there have been muslim scholars who observed certain verses in the Quran and came up with a number much closer to the Number NASA came up with... the age of the universe from a muslim scholar is approximately 13.5 billion...

I'm not using science when I like it and dismissing it when I don't...I urge you to read the Quran and come up with something that contradicts with proven scientific facts

Quote: The way the universe came into "being" from "non-being" is reported thus in the Qur'an:

He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)

That's pretty vague.

that's pretty vague? what's so vague about it? ok maybe it is vague to you...lemme explain it... the verse says that God originated the heavens and the earth...

Quote: The expansion of the universe, one of the main areas of research of modern science, is revealed in this verse:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

Quote:
As is that. Also the universe isn't "steadily expanding", the rate of expansion has been in decline since the big bang. You shouldn't try and prove religion with science as if you go down that road a lot of science will "prove" your religion wrong. I thought it was about faith anyway?

thats a mistranslation , i think. because the verse in arabic does not contain any description of the action " expanding" so i think the word "steadily " was added by the translator

yeah science will prove christianity or judaism wrong... but not Islam... and so far it has not and it never will

peace

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: a very recent scnietific fact says that the universe is expanding... that fact is found in the Quran and has been in the Quran and muslims knew that 1400 years ago..how did mohammed come up with that fact?

there are many more

check this website to see

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

peace

The following is from the website you recommended,

"The scientific discoveries of the 20th century that followed swiftly, one after the other, in the fields of astrophysics and biology have proved that life and the universe were created. As the theses of Darwinism collapsed, the Big Bang theory has shown that the universe was created from nothing. Discoveries have revealed that there is a great design and fine-tuning in the material world and this has categorically demonstrated the groundless nature of the claims of materialism."

This bit of text says that evolution has collapsed and that it has been proven that life and the universe were created by someone. Everyone who is intrested in science should know that this is a lie.

Evolution has not been disproven.

Science do not know exactly how life started.

And it has never been proven that a divine being created the universe.

You may believe that God is responsible for the Big Bang and that he created the first life on earth, but it has not been proven using science.
You can even argue that if God created the universe in thia way it is a very elegant solution, but you can't prove it.

my friend... you neglect the most important thing when you talk about evolution... darwin's theory of evolution is still a THEORY... it is not a scientific fact ..it is just a theory..an opinion ...

when your answer when talking about something is "I don't know..." then you are not really sure and then you can't use it as an undeniable fact...

evolution has been disproven and if you check Harun Yahya's website you would learn something ...but i guess you believe in evolution not because you think it is right... but because I want it to be so

you want archeologists discover with a footprint of Adam so you could believe that he existed... such things would be impossible to discover you know...

but God gave you so many proofs that he exists...but you do not have the right to ask for a designed proof so that you will grace mankind and all creatures by embracing the beleif of God existense...

proofs are there you have the choice to believe or not... keep in mind that god is not gonna benefit from either choice you make... but your own salvation rests on that choice...God is not gonna lose something if you don't believe in him... you are the one who is gonna lose

Showboat · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:33 am Post subject:

Quote: evolution has been disproven and if you check Harun Yahya's website you would learn something ...but i guess you believe in evolution not because you think it is right... but because I want it to be so

WTF. Evolution has never been scientifically disproven. If anything the evolution of viruses such as HIV to beat treatment drugs proves evolution.

Quote: actually there have been muslim scholars who observed certain verses in the Quran and came up with a number much closer to the Number NASA came up with... the age of the universe from a muslim scholar is approximately 13.5 billion...

Well, well. Cosmologists work out the age of the universe and then Muslim scholars fit the Koran in to their findings. Proves nothing. If cosmologists tomorrow say the universe is three weeks old the religious scholars will say thats what is says.

"I'm not using science when I like it and dismissing it when I don't...I urge you to read the Quran and come up with something that contradicts with proven scientific facts "

Well I've a 12 hour flight to Hong Kong tonight and a copy of the Koran so I should find a few. But then you'll just say it's a miss translation. Funny how you guys know better than arab scholars when it comes to translation. :lol:

"that's pretty vague? what's so vague about it? ok maybe it is vague to you...lemme explain it... the verse says that God originated the heavens and the earth... "

But science doesn't. Science doesn't have an answer, you just put your answer in to the blank space.

"thats a mistranslation , i think. because the verse in arabic does not contain any description of the action " expanding" so i think the word "steadily " was added by the translator "

If the "real" translation doesn't mention expanding then why use the fact that the universe is expanding as proof of the Koran???? :?

"yeah science will prove christianity or judaism wrong... but not Islam... and so far it has not and it never will "

Not when you won't accept the science that does.

"they did not get it easy... they were chosen to deliver the message"

They got their faith easy, no doubting for them. Or their followers that saw them assend into heaven. If I got that kinda proof I'd believe

Regards[/quote]

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

Glorfindel wrote: my friend... you neglect the most important thing when you talk about evolution... darwin's theory of evolution is still a THEORY... it is not a scientific fact ..it is just a theory..an opinion ...

when your answer when talking about something is "I don't know..." then you are not really sure and then you can't use it as an undeniable fact...

evolution has been disproven and if you check Harun Yahya's website you would learn something ...but i guess you believe in evolution not because you think it is right... but because I want it to be so

you want archeologists discover with a footprint of Adam so you could believe that he existed... such things would be impossible to discover you know...

but God gave you so many proofs that he exists...but you do not have the right to ask for a designed proof so that you will grace mankind and all creatures by embracing the beleif of God existense...

proofs are there you have the choice to believe or not... keep in mind that god is not gonna benefit from either choice you make... but your own salvation rests on that choice...God is not gonna lose something if you don't believe in him... you are the one who is gonna lose

No offence but what kind of education do you have ?

A couple of links for you to check out, your use of the word theory shows that you do not understand what it means. A scientific theory is not just an opinion.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/theory.html

Do you believe in the theory of gravity after all it is "just" a theory ?
How about set theory in mathematics ?

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: Quote: evolution has been disproven and if you check Harun Yahya's website you would learn something ...but i guess you believe in evolution not because you think it is right... but because I want it to be so

WTF. Evolution has never been scientifically disproven. If anything the evolution of viruses such as HIV to beat treatment drugs proves evolution.

Quote: actually there have been muslim scholars who observed certain verses in the Quran and came up with a number much closer to the Number NASA came up with... the age of the universe from a muslim scholar is approximately 13.5 billion...

Well, well. Cosmologists work out the age of the universe and then Muslim scholars fit the Koran in to their findings. Proves nothing. If cosmologists tomorrow say the universe is three weeks old the religious scholars will say thats what is says.

"I'm not using science when I like it and dismissing it when I don't...I urge you to read the Quran and come up with something that contradicts with proven scientific facts "

Well I've a 12 hour flight to Hong Kong tonight and a copy of the Koran so I should find a few. But then you'll just say it's a miss translation. Funny how you guys know better than arab scholars when it comes to translation. :lol:

"that's pretty vague? what's so vague about it? ok maybe it is vague to you...lemme explain it... the verse says that God originated the heavens and the earth... "

But science doesn't. Science doesn't have an answer, you just put your answer in to the blank space.

"thats a mistranslation , i think. because the verse in arabic does not contain any description of the action " expanding" so i think the word "steadily " was added by the translator "

If the "real" translation doesn't mention expanding then why use the fact that the universe is expanding as proof of the Koran???? :?

"yeah science will prove christianity or judaism wrong... but not Islam... and so far it has not and it never will "

Not when you won't accept the science that does.

"they did not get it easy... they were chosen to deliver the message"

They got their faith easy, no doubting for them. Or their followers that saw them assend into heaven. If I got that kinda proof I'd believe

Regards [/quote]

first of all.. it is debatable whether viruses are considered to be a lifeform.. since they lack one of the most aspects or traits of lifeforms..which is the ability to reproduce... so viruses would not make the best example for evolution

and about the gae of the universe and how muslims scholars got it... who gave you the right to say that this muslim scholar just looked into the Quran after he learned of age of the universe calculated by NASA... I mean you don't even know how this muslim scholar got to find the age of the universe from the Quran... and why would not this muslim scholar fabricate his research to get exactly the age of the universe that NASA found? the two numbers are close but not the same...

if that scholar goal is to fabricate something so that his research agree with NASA then why did he come up with a different number?

this scholar did not come up with a number without explaining how he got to it thoroughly..

go on and read the Quran and if you can find anything please share it with us...and about the mistranslation thing... well it is not our fault that your copy of the Quran was mistranslated... if you really want to prove that we lie about the mistranslation thing.. then go ahead and learn Arabic ..and we won't have to explain it to you and "lie" as you think we do... Arabic is my first language and I when it comes to translating verses or expalining them... I got the books of the best who were the all time masters in the fields of both the Arabic language and Islam.. and I use their interpretations and then I translate it to you...

I'm not here to lie my way through to make you like Islam or embrace it... i'm here to provide the truth as much as possible ... and if you like what I say..then fine and if you don't then also fine.. God is the one who can guide you to rightousness and if it is in his will to make you embrace Islam... that's great news nad I'm happy for you.. but if not...then I did my duty and deliver the message of Islam to those who are not muslims

and just to show you that you write before you even read what is written... look at this...

I wrote

"thats a mistranslation , i think. because the verse in arabic does not contain any description of the action " expanding" so i think the word "steadily " was added by the translator "

and then you responded

"If the "real" translation doesn't mention expanding then why use the fact that the universe is expanding as proof of the Koran???? :? "

what word did I say was added? the word "expanding" is found in the verse... the verse says that the world is expanding... the adverb "steadily" is not in that verse though.. that's where I think that the translator made a mistake.. the word "steadily" and not "expanding" is the word that should not have been added

I will accept anything that is an undisputed fact... but a theory that has been disproven several times should not even be sorted as science... where fiction should have been more appropriate to be sorted under

about the prophets and what you think of them... I will get to that later...because I have to leave now...

peace

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

Glorfindel I do not accuse you of lieing, but evolution is a well established scientific theory. I also know that you are not lieing to make Islam look any "better" than it is.

But your earlier post here proved that you don't understand what a scientific theory is. If you are intrested in learning about evolution
check out this website. http://www.talkorigins.org/.

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

http://www.harunyahya.com/tellmeaboutthecreation01.php

"The idea that life is the product of an uncontrolled, purposeless process of coincidence is a 19th century myth. Looking at the matter from the primitive level of the science of the period, evolutionists assumed that life was very "simple"."

" Before coming to that, however, there are numerous questions the evolutionary theory needs to answer. The first question is how the first living organism appeared on earth."

The theory of evolution does not deal with how life started.
The theory is about how life started is called abiogenesis.
Does the people behind the harunyahya site even know what evolution is ?

"They knew that the "intermediary transitional forms" which Darwin imagined to have existed, never existed in reality. Darwin was hoping that this problem would be overcome by new fossil findings. Palaeontology, on the contrary, invalidated Darwin's theory more and more each day."

Another lie ....

check out this link http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

jeechoscopy · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject:

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: jeechoscopy wrote: Showboat wrote: As is that. Also the universe isn't "steadily expanding", the rate of expansion has been in decline since the big bang. You shouldn't try and prove religion with science as if you go down that road a lot of science will "prove" your religion wrong. I thought it was about faith anyway?

Though most of the scientists "believe" that the universe is expanding but some rejects the idea... It's because they don't have any device to observe the universe due to time and space...

No, science proves most of religious teachings. You can take morals...
For this I have Islam
Quran is totally scientific proven book. Most of the theories were already in Quran discovered later.
www.harunyahya.com

I will not waste my time reading a webpage that is denying evolution.
I am sure I could find hundreds of links/books that support evolution,
but it would be a waste of time.

The idea of big bang is discussed in Quran. Evolution theory parallels to it. But evolution is not just a belief it’s a scientific theory (no mater how it is proven.) I’m not rejecting its all parts but the liks I'm going to provide do.

I’ll not resist you further to read the articles from www.harunyahya.com

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

Mangas, take a look at the link I presented and then come back to me. Forget that it attacks the Christian version of Creation, as snow pointed out a few pages back, but focus on what Islam has to say about the issue.

jeechoscopy · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject:

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Evolution has not been disproven.

Though this discussion is off the topic... but it seems you are to have some fun here...

Ok, I can disprove evolution theory...

I'll claim that Darvin lives in a planet that is 500 million years of light from here... could you disprove me?

If you could, I'll too disprove the evolution theory. :lol:

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: my friend... you neglect the most important thing when you talk about evolution... darwin's theory of evolution is still a THEORY... it is not a scientific fact ..it is just a theory..an opinion ...

when your answer when talking about something is "I don't know..." then you are not really sure and then you can't use it as an undeniable fact...

evolution has been disproven and if you check Harun Yahya's website you would learn something ...but i guess you believe in evolution not because you think it is right... but because I want it to be so

you want archeologists discover with a footprint of Adam so you could believe that he existed... such things would be impossible to discover you know...

but God gave you so many proofs that he exists...but you do not have the right to ask for a designed proof so that you will grace mankind and all creatures by embracing the beleif of God existense...

proofs are there you have the choice to believe or not... keep in mind that god is not gonna benefit from either choice you make... but your own salvation rests on that choice...God is not gonna lose something if you don't believe in him... you are the one who is gonna lose

No offence but what kind of education do you have ?

A couple of links for you to check out, your use of the word theory shows that you do not understand what it means. A scientific theory is not just an opinion.

http://wilstar.com/theories.htm
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://aether.lbl.gov/www/classes/p10/theory.html

Do you believe in the theory of gravity after all it is "just" a theory ?
How about set theory in mathematics ?

Mangas
my last post was not directed to you..it was directed to showboat

I'm an undergraduate student just FYI .. and by the way, there is no need to imply or inspire suspicions regarding my level of education because I don't believe in the evolution theory or my definition of a theory is not like yours...

a theory is a group of ideas that logically make sense when they are put together. a theory is never proven to be true, but can be disproven. a theory is an detail explanation to a certain phenomena or of how things work... a theory is like the best explanation that humans can come up regarding the laws of nature or whatever... a theory is just a detailed and unsubstantiated scientific opinion...

once a theory is proven to be true... it becomes a fact...

the theory of gravity... if you are referring to newton's gravity theory... well it has been disproven by Einstein... it is though still used because it is relatively accurate for speeds less than the speed of light... the gravity theory is still a theory nonetheless.

even in mathemtics... they discover new theories everyday but scientifically speaking...all mathematics are related to each other thus it would be a rash decision to call a mathematical theory a fact especially on this level of advanced mathematics...

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: http://www.harunyahya.com/tellmeaboutthecreation01.php

"The idea that life is the product of an uncontrolled, purposeless process of coincidence is a 19th century myth. Looking at the matter from the primitive level of the science of the period, evolutionists assumed that life was very "simple"."

" Before coming to that, however, there are numerous questions the evolutionary theory needs to answer. The first question is how the first living organism appeared on earth."

The theory of evolution does not deal with how life started.
The theory is about how life started is called abiogenesis.
Does the people behind the harunyahya site even know what evolution is ?

"They knew that the "intermediary transitional forms" which Darwin imagined to have existed, never existed in reality. Darwin was hoping that this problem would be overcome by new fossil findings. Palaeontology, on the contrary, invalidated Darwin's theory more and more each day."

Another lie ....

check out this link http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

so the evolution theory is a theory that doesn't answer all the questions that can be asked about it...

i dont care what the field specialized in how life started is called... I care that this theor has failed to answer the first question that is very related to its main and basic idea of a one cell being the origin of all life in this planet. the mere failure in this theory to answer the question about the origin of that single cell shows that the ideas that when put together they create this theory do not in fact make sense or sound logical... what kind of a theory is this when one of the most impostant question about it can not be answered by that theory but must be referred to another field of study.

you question the existense of God yet you have no suspicions about Darwin and his theory?

you asked for a proof ofr God's existense.. I ask for an undisputable undeniable proof that Darwin's theory can even qualify to be called a theory.

Mangas_Coloradas · Joined: 16 Jan 2004 Posts: 119

Glorfindel wrote:

Mangas
my last post was not directed to you..it was directed to showboat

I'm an undergraduate student just FYI .. and by the way, there is no need to imply or inspire suspicions regarding my level of education because I don't believe in the evolution theory or my definition of a theory is not like yours...

a theory is a group of ideas that logically make sense when they are put together. a theory is never proven to be true, but can be disproven. a theory is an detail explanation to a certain phenomena or of how things work... a theory is like the best explanation that humans can come up regarding the laws of nature or whatever... a theory is just a detailed and unsubstantiated scientific opinion...

once a theory is proven to be true... it becomes a fact...

the theory of gravity... if you are referring to newton's gravity theory... well it has been disproven by Einstein... it is though still used because it is relatively accurate for speeds less than the speed of light... the gravity theory is still a theory nonetheless.

even in mathemtics... they discover new theories everyday but scientifically speaking...all mathematics are related to each other thus it would be a rash decision to call a mathematical theory a fact especially on this level of advanced mathematics...

When you use the phrase just a theory it is clear that you don't understand what a scientific theory is. A scientific theory is not
"just a detailed and unsubstantiated scientific opinion..." ......

You agree that mutations occur right ?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html#observe
The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

As you can see we know that evolution can produce new species.

How life started is not relevant to the theory of evolution, it is not part
of the theory. God if exists he may have created the first life on earth.
In fact a lot of christians believe in the theory of evolution.

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject:

Woah. These threads go fast :D.

I don't think the question is as much about translation or interpretation, but as it is about the meaning and context as it should be viewed in, in current age. Are muslims willing to see Muhammed as a reformer, a revolutionary, and do they draw this line in this age also? That meaning, furthering the struggle for women's emancipation, and protection of young girls against such young marriages and consumation thereof?

The biggest issue, in this matter, I believe, which might not be the topic of this thread, is fundamentalism, and the fear that they will use these kinds of texts as an excuse to rationalise their perverted desires.

Mr U

Showboat · Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:00 am Post subject:

Quote: first of all.. it is debatable whether viruses are considered to be a lifeform.. since they lack one of the most aspects or traits of lifeforms..which is the ability to reproduce... so viruses would not make the best example for evolution

Ok how about bacteria and their ability to become antibiotic resiliant?

Quote: and about the gae of the universe and how muslims scholars got it... who gave you the right to say that this muslim scholar just looked into the Quran after he learned of age of the universe calculated by NASA... I mean you don't even know how this muslim scholar got to find the age of the universe from the Quran... and why would not this muslim scholar fabricate his research to get exactly the age of the universe that NASA found? the two numbers are close but not the same...

OK how and when did he work it out?

Quote: I will accept anything that is an undisputed fact... but a theory that has been disproven several times should not even be sorted as science... where fiction should have been more appropriate to be sorted under

No scientific theory can ever be said to be proven undisputedly. They are always being tested. That's the nature of science. I assume your talking about evolution being "fiction". It has never been "disproven" apart from by cranks with an agenda. It's not a perfect theory, most rational people will admit that, but it's damn near, near enough.

DawoodN · Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 128 Location: Boston, MA

Quote: Ok if the Koran accepts science, can anyone show me a passage that proves that the Koran accepts evolution ? Or at least tell me that the Koran does not deny evolution.

Islam (and particularly the Quran's role) is not to provide any sort of scientific enlightenment. It deals absolutely in the supernatural. As such, any such question is irrelevant. I don't see why it would be necessary for Islam to function as a demonstration of science. The physical world and the metaphysical world need not explain themselves. Does the lack of proof of the metaphysical world make science any less true?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

DawoodN wrote: Quote: Ok if the Koran accepts science, can anyone show me a passage that proves that the Koran accepts evolution ? Or at least tell me that the Koran does not deny evolution.

Islam (and particularly the Quran's role) is not to provide any sort of scientific enlightenment. It deals absolutely in the supernatural. As such, any such question is irrelevant. I don't see why it would be necessary for Islam to function as a demonstration of science. The physical world and the metaphysical world need not explain themselves. Does the lack of proof of the metaphysical world make science any less true?

Dawood, what of the scientific phenomena that are related to in the Koran?
http://www.islam-guide.com/