Political Crossfire Forums

[Glorfindel]

Saracen wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Saracen wrote:

Didn't you read my link? I said that she reached puberty at 9 years old because life expectancies were short.


Your link said a lot of things, I read some it but not everything.
Your link didn't deny that he had sex with a 9 year old.

If you are correct he had sex with a 9 year old child, whether you want
to call that pedophilea or not isn't really that intresting. I am honestly surprised that moderate muslims defend this.

Didn't you get it? Nine years old was a pubic age at the time. She wasn't technically a "child", and there is a lot of dispute. I think Glorfindel cleared up everything.

he doesnt read my post . he doesnt read everything in the link you gave him and then he says he is surprised that moderate muslims defend this...

we defend this because you keep saying she is a nine year old... you did not even read from the links i gave you...

she was a mature woman..the number of years doesnt matter as long as you are sexually prepared to have sex..and he had hit puberty before she got married..then she was not a child... read my post I dont wanna keep repeating everything

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Saracen wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Saracen wrote:

Didn't you read my link? I said that she reached puberty at 9 years old because life expectancies were short.


Your link said a lot of things, I read some it but not everything.
Your link didn't deny that he had sex with a 9 year old.

If you are correct he had sex with a 9 year old child, whether you want
to call that pedophilea or not isn't really that intresting. I am honestly surprised that moderate muslims defend this.

Didn't you get it? Nine years old was a pubic age at the time. She wasn't technically a "child", and there is a lot of dispute. I think Glorfindel cleared up everything.

Glorfindel said several things including:
"aisha was a mature woman"

I never heard anyone describe a nine year old as a mature women. According to the miriam webster online dictionary mature means " having completed natural growth and development".

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mature


"your western standards can not be applied on us and your norms should not be the examples for everyone to follow..."

This qoute from Glorfindel is intresting when you think about all the muslims who want to force the west to accept their norms.

I have also read Aisha married Muhammed when she was 6 (but they didn't have sex until she was 9). Is a six year old girl old enough to decide who she wants to marry ?

[jeechoscopy]

If we suppose, "Yes, Mohammad (PBUH) married to a 9 years old" -no matter how it is controversial, a question is still there...

..."Rather if they bedded?"

I'm sure Beloved Mohammad did what that was absolutely correct then.

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote:

Glorfindel said several things including:
"aisha was a mature woman"

I never heard anyone describe a nine year old as a mature women. According to the miriam webster online dictionary mature means " having completed natural growth and development".

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mature


"your western standards can not be applied on us and your norms should not be the examples for everyone to follow..."

This qoute from Glorfindel is intresting when you think about all the muslims who want to force the west to accept their norms.

I have also read Aisha married Muhammed when she was 6 (but they didn't have sex until she was 9). Is a six year old girl old enough to decide who she wants to marry ?


and maybe you have never seen one too... and you are not to be blamed.. the environment in Norway delays the maturity stage for boys and girls..unlike the middleast... why can you not get this ideainto your head? it is a scientific fact that boys and girls in hot regions hit puberty bofre those of same age in cold regions

you dont have to look for a definition that suits your claims and what you are trying to prove... i'll make easy for you

now when can a male have children? when he hit puberty and have perform sexual intercourse during which an amount of semen get into the female's body and if successful that sperm breaches the layers of the egg... when that happens those two member will have a fetus

now if you are biologically ready to release sperm or can get pregnant when the womb is ready to obtain and accommodate a fetus... now do I need to tell you what is the story behind that monthly period that women go through?

so biologically speaking...if a female's womb is ready and can accomodate a fetus... then that female is a girl NO MORE... but a woman

Aisha was a woman and biologically had the ability to give birth and so on...now if you have a problem when the norm of getting married early.. then hey ... it is not your culture..you are supposed to find it difficult to accept the norms of other cultures...

loool who said that you have to accept our norms? i never said that... lemme stress that again... I never said you have to accept our norms or apply it to your culture... even in our culture this norm of getting married real early has been abandoned or delayed a few years more... so even now in Saudi Arabia rarely has a woman as young as Aisha was gotten married... not because we like you have a probpelm with the number... but we believe that a girl might want to finish her studies and what not...

if you don't know 1400 years ago there was nothing like elementary school or colleges...

the norm being less practiced does not mean it is wrong...

i never said you have to accept our norms... just don't look at our customs and norms like they are wrong or call them pedophilia or what not.. dont accept them... and dont judge them either

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote:

Glorfindel said several things including:
"aisha was a mature woman"

I never heard anyone describe a nine year old as a mature women. According to the miriam webster online dictionary mature means " having completed natural growth and development".

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mature


"your western standards can not be applied on us and your norms should not be the examples for everyone to follow..."

This qoute from Glorfindel is intresting when you think about all the muslims who want to force the west to accept their norms.

I have also read Aisha married Muhammed when she was 6 (but they didn't have sex until she was 9). Is a six year old girl old enough to decide who she wants to marry ?


loool who said that you have to accept our norms? i never said that... lemme stress that again... I never said you have to accept our norms or apply it to your culture... even in our culture this norm of getting married real early has been abandoned or delayed a few years more... so even now in Saudi Arabia rarely has a woman as young as Aisha was gotten married... not because we like you have a probpelm with the number... but we believe that a girl might want to finish her studies and what not...



A lot of muslims have been trying to get the west to accept their norms when it comes to things like freedom of speech. Using tactics like demonstrating and boycotting (and violence but that was of course a small minority).

I did not mean to say that you wanted to west to accept your norms,
I do not remember what you have written about that issue.

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel,

How about if I put it like this, I belive that it is wrong to have sex with any person who is only 9 years old. The fact that Aisha had reached puberty does not change my opinion. I also belive that a 6 year old is not mature enough to decide who she wants to marry.

btw if you look at Wikipeda you will notice that some islamic countries
do have laws about how old you have to be to be allowed to have sex.

For example Pakistan(18), Tunisia(20), Morocco(15), Indonesia(17) and Egypt(18).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#Ages_of_consent_in_various_countries

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote:

Glorfindel said several things including:
"aisha was a mature woman"

I never heard anyone describe a nine year old as a mature women. According to the miriam webster online dictionary mature means " having completed natural growth and development".

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/mature


"your western standards can not be applied on us and your norms should not be the examples for everyone to follow..."

This qoute from Glorfindel is intresting when you think about all the muslims who want to force the west to accept their norms.

I have also read Aisha married Muhammed when she was 6 (but they didn't have sex until she was 9). Is a six year old girl old enough to decide who she wants to marry ?


loool who said that you have to accept our norms? i never said that... lemme stress that again... I never said you have to accept our norms or apply it to your culture... even in our culture this norm of getting married real early has been abandoned or delayed a few years more... so even now in Saudi Arabia rarely has a woman as young as Aisha was gotten married... not because we like you have a probpelm with the number... but we believe that a girl might want to finish her studies and what not...



A lot of muslims have been trying to get the west to accept their norms when it comes to things like freedom of speech. Using tactics like demonstrating and boycotting (and violence but that was of course a small minority).

I did not mean to say that you wanted to west to accept your norms,
I do not remember what you have written about that issue.

i think it is a very small minority because all we muslims want is from the west to leave us alone... that's it... isn't it easy? that's why norway and sweden are kind of appreciated ... well I for one do apreciated them for the fact that these state mind their own businesses..

if you are referring to the danish cartoons... well that's a different issue... but even in that issue...all we wanted is from you people to respect our beliefs and not insult us and make a comedy material out of the religious characters... that's it.. respect does not conflict with freedom of speech

you don't have to remember everything.. because everything is written... just go back to the previous page and you will find everything I wrong in this thread so far

[Saracen]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel,

How about if I put it like this, I belive that it is wrong to have sex with any person who is only 9 years old. The fact that Aisha had reached puberty does not change my opinion. I also belive that a 6 year old is not mature enough to decide who she wants to marry.

btw if you look at Wikipeda you will notice that some islamic countries
do have laws about how old you have to be to be allowed to have sex.

For example Pakistan(18), Tunisia(20), Morocco(15), Indonesia(17) and Egypt(18).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#Ages_of_consent_in_various_countries

That's in present times, and not back then.

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel,

How about if I put it like this, I belive that it is wrong to have sex with any person who is only 9 years old. The fact that Aisha had reached puberty does not change my opinion. I also belive that a 6 year old is not mature enough to decide who she wants to marry.

btw if you look at Wikipeda you will notice that some islamic countries
do have laws about how old you have to be to be allowed to have sex.

For example Pakistan(18), Tunisia(20), Morocco(15), Indonesia(17) and Egypt(18).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent#Ages_of_consent_in_various_countries

hey, believe whatever you want to believe... I can't change your mind if it is not destined for me to change it

all i did here is told you where we muslims stand in this issue... which is always used by those who want to attack Islam..

i'm not saying that you are one of them... I trust that you are not since you explained your intentions behind starting this thread

about those islamic countries... well my friend... i'm sorry to say that even Islamic countries sometimes make rules that contradicts with Islam... and most of those countries do not even use the teachings of Islam as a reference in the foundation of their laws and policies

even in those countries... if you notice, they dont agree on one particular age... which tells you that it is different in each state... because maturity can not really be measured by the number of years

anyway, believe whatever you want... you now know where we muslims stand on this issue...

thanks for discussing this matter with me

peace

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote: i think it is a very small minority because all we muslims want is from the west to leave us alone... that's it... isn't it easy? that's why norway and sweden are kind of appreciated ... well I for one do apreciated them for the fact that these state mind their own businesses..

if you are referring to the danish cartoons... well that's a different issue... but even in that issue...all we wanted is from you people to respect our beliefs and not insult us and make a comedy material out of the religious characters... that's it.. respect does not conflict with freedom of speech

you don't have to remember everything.. because everything is written... just go back to the previous page and you will find everything I wrong in this thread so far


I was refering to the cartoons when I said i didn't remember what you wrote. It would have been better if the cartoons had not been published
but the reaction of extremists turned it into a battle beetween religion and freedom of speech.

You are asking me to respect Islam, but I am having trouble with the
following qoute from the Koran.

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom." Yusuf Ali translation

It seems to say that I am deaf,dumb and blind because I don't belive in
God. I can only respect Islam if Islam respects atheists. Reading the
qoute from the Koran I get the impression that Islam is not respecting
atheism.

I am not sure it is correct to say that Norway minds its own business,
we have sent troops to countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. We have tried to help to peace process in the middle east. Our government also protest against human rights abuses in various countries.

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: i think it is a very small minority because all we muslims want is from the west to leave us alone... that's it... isn't it easy? that's why norway and sweden are kind of appreciated ... well I for one do apreciated them for the fact that these state mind their own businesses..

if you are referring to the danish cartoons... well that's a different issue... but even in that issue...all we wanted is from you people to respect our beliefs and not insult us and make a comedy material out of the religious characters... that's it.. respect does not conflict with freedom of speech

you don't have to remember everything.. because everything is written... just go back to the previous page and you will find everything I wrong in this thread so far


I was refering to the cartoons when I said i didn't remember what you wrote. It would have been better if the cartoons had not been published
but the reaction of extremists turned it into a battle beetween religion and freedom of speech.

You are asking me to respect Islam, but I am having trouble with the
following qoute from the Koran.

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom." Yusuf Ali translation

It seems to say that I am deaf,dumb and blind because I don't belive in
God. I can only respect Islam if Islam respects atheists. Reading the
qoute from the Koran I get the impression that Islam is not respecting
atheism.

I am not sure it is correct to say that Norway minds its own business,
we have sent troops to countries like Iraq and Afghanistan. We have tried to help to peace process in the middle east. Our government also protest against human rights abuses in various countries.

about the cartoons... Denmark could have solved the whole thing when it started by stopping that cartoonist or if that cartoonist apologized... but no such thing was done... that enraged the muslim world ...who as it is is on fire and attacked from everywhere... they went too far when they tarted destroying other muslims properties and buring buildings... it would have been enough with an economical and political boycott..but even the governments reactions towards those cartoons were so weak that caused the poeple to become more furious..i think muslim countries should have created a unified stand against denmark and an apology would have been given

about that verse... could you give tell me what chapter and the number of the verse? because i want to read the arabic version and say if this is a case of mistranslation

I didn't know that norway had sent forces to Iraq... I must say my position regarding it has unfortunately changed

i'm not gonna comment on what you said about Islam's disrespect to atheism until you give me the numbers of the verse and the chapter

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote: about the cartoons... Denmark could have solved the whole thing when it started by stopping that cartoonist or if that cartoonist apologized... but no such thing was done... that enraged the muslim world ...who as it is is on fire and attacked from everywhere... they went too far when they tarted destroying other muslims properties and buring buildings... it would have been enough with an economical and political boycott..but even the governments reactions towards those cartoons were so weak that caused the poeple to become more furious..i think muslim countries should have created a unified stand against denmark and an apology would have been given

about that verse... could you give tell me what chapter and the number of the verse? because i want to read the arabic version and say if this is a case of mistranslation

I didn't know that norway had sent forces to Iraq... I must say my position regarding it has unfortunately changed

i'm not gonna comment on what you said about Islam's disrespect to atheism until you give me the numbers of the verse and the chapter


Sura Al-Baqarah [2:171-171] <-- is that the information you need ?

About Iraq, the majority of the population here was against that war.
There was a large demonstration against the war (in Oslo our capital) just
before it started.

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: about the cartoons... Denmark could have solved the whole thing when it started by stopping that cartoonist or if that cartoonist apologized... but no such thing was done... that enraged the muslim world ...who as it is is on fire and attacked from everywhere... they went too far when they tarted destroying other muslims properties and buring buildings... it would have been enough with an economical and political boycott..but even the governments reactions towards those cartoons were so weak that caused the poeple to become more furious..i think muslim countries should have created a unified stand against denmark and an apology would have been given

about that verse... could you give tell me what chapter and the number of the verse? because i want to read the arabic version and say if this is a case of mistranslation

I didn't know that norway had sent forces to Iraq... I must say my position regarding it has unfortunately changed

i'm not gonna comment on what you said about Islam's disrespect to atheism until you give me the numbers of the verse and the chapter


Sura Al-Baqarah [2:171-171] <-- is that the information you need ?

About Iraq, the majority of the population here was against that war.
There was a large demonstration against the war (in Oslo our capital) just
before it started.

that verse talks about the non-believers who are like cattle who would not understand what is told to them by the shepherd , they can only hear it.. but can not understand it. that verse is an example of those who worship false idols ..statues and things that can not hear nor see nor understand anything and when it is said "deaf blind and dumb" it is said because those idols can not hear the truth nor see it nor understand it and are void of wisdom

that aside... are you an atheist? if so..what led you to such belief?

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote:

that verse talks about the non-believers who are like cattle who would not understand what is told to them by the shepherd , they can only hear it.. but can not understand it. that verse is an example of those who worship false idols ..statues and things that can not hear nor see nor understand anything and when it is said "deaf blind and dumb" it is said because those idols can not hear the truth nor see it nor understand it and are void of wisdom

that aside... are you an atheist? if so..what led you to such belief?

so it is the false idol that is void of wisdom, and not the "unbeliever" / atheist ? Basically the Koran says that it is dumb to worship a statue ?

I see no evidence for a divine being. God is not needed to explain how
the world works. I see no reason to belive that one special religion is
the truth.

If God exists the Bible should have been written more clearly, you can
use that book to justify just about anything. Just look at all the different types of christians. (I am not sure if the same thing can be said about the Koran, I haven't read enough of it yet). Christianity also have a long
tradition of denying science.

If you look at all the religions in the world then how can I really choose one without any evidence ?

[pharaoh]

Quote: I see no evidence for a divine being. God is not needed to explain how
the world works. I see no reason to belive that one special religion is
the truth.



Really? I didnt know that science explained how the world works. Seems Im very ignorant, forgive me but could you please explain to me how the world works? Thanks in advance

Quote: If God exists the Bible should have been written more clearly, you can
use that book to justify just about anything. Just look at all the different types of christians. (I am not sure if the same thing can be said about the Koran, I haven't read enough of it yet). Christianity also have a long
tradition of denying science.



Thats because we, muslims, believe that the bible was modified by humans, so its no longer the words of god, thats why its unclear.

Quote: If you look at all the religions in the world then how can I really choose one without any evidence ?

What evidence are you looking for? I hope its not seeing god cause we were created to worship god without seeing or hearing him, this life is a test and seeing or hearing god would be like cheating in an exam.. Just put what I said aside and just tell me what kinda evidence are you looking for?

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote:

that verse talks about the non-believers who are like cattle who would not understand what is told to them by the shepherd , they can only hear it.. but can not understand it. that verse is an example of those who worship false idols ..statues and things that can not hear nor see nor understand anything and when it is said "deaf blind and dumb" it is said because those idols can not hear the truth nor see it nor understand it and are void of wisdom

that aside... are you an atheist? if so..what led you to such belief?

so it is the false idol that is void of wisdom, and not the "unbeliever" / atheist ? Basically the Koran says that it is dumb to worship a statue ?

I see no evidence for a divine being. God is not needed to explain how
the world works. I see no reason to belive that one special religion is
the truth.

If God exists the Bible should have been written more clearly, you can
use that book to justify just about anything. Just look at all the different types of christians. (I am not sure if the same thing can be said about the Koran, I haven't read enough of it yet). Christianity also have a long
tradition of denying science.

If you look at all the religions in the world then how can I really choose one without any evidence ?

first of all...the false idols in that verse are told to be void of wisdom...but in other verses... you will find them when you read them... ( and please ask for any verse that you find to be unclear because the translators sometimes use words that seem unfit or not exactly the right choice )

Quran calls for those who say that there is no God ...they are wrong and they didn't think about it all the way through...

I gave you the the meaning of that verse but that doesn't mean that Quran does not talk about those who think that there is no God and you will find that if you keep reading the Quran

you see no evidense of a divine entity? all this world , you think created its own? ok you might beliece that all started from one cell... but what about the stars and all the planets and galaxies..where did they come from?

so if you enter one day your own private room and find that a wall is built in the center of it..a wall that was not there when you went to work...would you really believe that this wall created itself? you would not suspect that someone... with certain abilities has built that wall?

have you ever seen pieces of wood making the decision to stick together and build a boat? or a table? i have not... someone must have built that boat using those pieces of wood...

you not witnessing how a certain thing was made or built does not mean that this thing built or made itself...you know what I am saying? I can't claim that my cup of coffee created itself because I did not see the entity that manufactured it ...my ignorance of who made that cup does not give me the right to deny his existense...

the bible has been modified and distorted..so it is no longer the word of God..even though some verses may have survived the pens of the editors...there is only one Islam and there are many factions of muslims... but they all agree on one book... the Quran.. which has never been modified or changed... if you speak arabic and able to read Quran in its original language... you can be sure that you are reading the same verses that the prophet mohammed was inspired to say. and you can not find two different versions of the quran... the quran I got here is the same one in nigeria , is the same one in Pakistan and the same one in Indonesia.

you are right about one thing though..is that christianity has always been in conflict with science... and if you know the story of the scientists Coppernicus or Galileo..you would know how christianity did not agree with science and in fact punished scientists and kill others...

Islam on the other hand walks hand in hand with science... even Islam encourages us to try and find any irregularities between the facts provided in the Quran and the facts that are scientifically proven

muslims always knew that the earth is not flat and it is in fact round like a ball... muslims have known that 1400 years ago... christianity denied that fact ..muslims knew that the earth is round even before Galileo or coppernicus

in the Quran says in chapter Alrum...of the story of the byzantines defeat and their victory that they will achieve in less than 10 years... historically they byzantines won after the persians defeated them in less than 10 years ..but what I want to say is... when Quran mentions the location of that battle and says that battle in which the byzantines lost took place in the lowest place below the level of sea... which has been scientifically proven that near the dead sea between palestine and jordan...the lowest point beloow the level of sea is that... now how can an illiterate man come up with such facts?

if you keep reading the Quran , you will find verses in which god is described as the God of the two sunrises and the two sunsets... and the God of the sunrises and sunsets... now that's unique kind of praise God... unless you know that some planets have two stars acting as suns and another planet has three suns... so on that planet there happens two sunsets and two sunrises... or three on that other palnet... now how did Mohammed know of such planets?

a very recent scnietific fact says that the universe is expanding... that fact is found in the Quran and has been in the Quran and muslims knew that 1400 years ago..how did mohammed come up with that fact?

there are many more

check this website to see

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

peace

[Showboat]

Quote: What evidence are you looking for? I hope its not seeing god cause we were created to worship god without seeing or hearing him, this life is a test and seeing or hearing god would be like cheating in an exam

So what about Moses, Jesus and Mohammad. They must be cheats then. They got it easy didn't they, no doubting for them, eh?

[Showboat]

Quote: a very recent scnietific fact says that the universe is expanding... that fact is found in the Quran and has been in the Quran and muslims knew that 1400 years ago..how did mohammed come up with that fact?

It also says the universe was created 14 Billion years ago, not 6000 or whatever. You can't use science as "proof" when you like it and dismiss science when you don't.



Quote: The way the universe came into "being" from "non-being" is reported thus in the Qur'an:

He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. (Qur'an, 6:101)



That's pretty vague.

Quote: The expansion of the universe, one of the main areas of research of modern science, is revealed in this verse:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)



As is that. Also the universe isn't "steadily expanding", the rate of expansion has been in decline since the big bang. You shouldn't try and prove religion with science as if you go down that road a lot of science will "prove" your religion wrong. I thought it was about faith anyway?

[jeechoscopy]

Showboat wrote: As is that. Also the universe isn't "steadily expanding", the rate of expansion has been in decline since the big bang. You shouldn't try and prove religion with science as if you go down that road a lot of science will "prove" your religion wrong. I thought it was about faith anyway?

Though most of the scientists "believe" that the universe is expanding but some rejects the idea... It's because they don't have any device to observe the universe due to time and space...

No, science proves most of religious teachings. You can take morals...
For this I have Islam
Quran is totally scientific proven book. Most of the theories were already in Quran discovered later.
www.harunyahya.com

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Ok if the Koran accepts science, can anyone show me a passage that proves that the Koran accepts evolution ? Or at least tell me that the Koran does not deny evolution.

The universe is expanding, "And our galaxy itself is just one of billions of galaxies, in a universe that is infinite and expanding. But this is far from the end of a long history of inquiry. " Stephen Hawking.

It is possible to observe this, do a search on google if you don't believe me.


Some fundamentalist christian have used the Bible the calculate that the earth is about 6000 years old (which is obviously wrong). Does the
Koran say anything about the age of our planet (or the age of the universe) ?

I assume that Muslims, Christians and Jews believe that God is almighty and can do anything he wants. I find it strange that God if he exists has allowed the Bible to be so unclear.


I was asked to show how the world works using science.
If you really want to know start reading....
If you are interested in the universe, the big bang, and physics try reading "A brief history of time" written by Stephen hawking, and "The elegant universe" by Brian Greene. (Both Greene and Hawking have written other books on the subject as well).

If you are interested in evolution read "Origin of the species" by Darwin, everyone should read that book i think. Then read some other books about evolution sorry can't remember any titles at the moment.