Political Crossfire Forums

[Prole]

Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

[Digression]
I believe that anyone is whatever religion they consider themselves to be, even if they do not subscribe to all the tenets of that religion or hold a different interpretation of what it means to be a member of that religion to the more vocal majority. To me, a Muslim who does not pray five times a day is still a Muslim. A Jew who eats bacon cheeseburgers is still a Jew. And a Christian who does not oppose abortion on legal and/or moral grounds is still a Christian. Religion, spirituality, and truly any belief system is ultimately personal, and one must decide which principles hold true and which do not. Simply because one's interpretation of religion differs from someone else's does not mean that either of them are not members of that religion, but merely that they interpret it differently. Whether or not one is a member of a religion, then, is not a matter of outside perception, but of personal perception. You are what you consider yourself.
[/Digression]

Regarding bodily autonomy, I never stated that anyone opposes bodily autonomy, only anti-choice individuals believe that abortion is an unjust exhibition of bodily autonomy. They do not believe that bodily autonomy is not a right, but that the preborn human's perceived right to life surpasses the right to bodily autonomy.

As far as conciousness is concerned, no, I am not psychic, but one does not need to be psychic to know that until around the third trimester, a preborn human has no sensory perception. All knowledge, thoughts, and emotions are gained from sensory perception; without it, there is no consciousness.

Sailor Moon wrote: Killing is killing, and you will have to make up your mind about this one, Prole
I have not, and am hesitant to do so when two such valued rights (the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy) are in conflict with each other. If my agnosticism as to whether abortions after the development of consiousness are justified or not, and whether they should be legal or not, is frusterating to you, just know that it is for me as well.

It's Scylla and Charybdis, with no space in between. Perhaps you can appreciate my reluctance to sail.

[Sailor Moon]

Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

[Digression]
I believe that anyone is whatever religion they consider themselves to be, even if they do not subscribe to all the tenets of that religion or hold a different interpretation of what it means to be a member of that religion to the more vocal majority. To me, a Muslim who does not pray five times a day is still a Muslim. A Jew who eats bacon cheeseburgers is still a Jew. And a Christian who does not oppose abortion on legal and/or moral grounds is still a Christian. Religion, spirituality, and truly any belief system is ultimately personal, and one must decide which principles hold true and which do not. Simply because one's interpretation of religion differs from someone else's does not mean that either of them are not members of that religion, but merely that they interpret it differently. Whether or not one is a member of a religion, then, is not a matter of outside perception, but of personal perception. You are what you consider yourself.
[/Digression]



No, if you are a jew who prefers to sin than to follow his religious principles, then youre not really a jew. Subscribing to your own religion, is not following the word of your God, and is not a truthful religion. Same goes for Christians.

Quote: Regarding bodily autonomy, I never stated that anyone opposes bodily autonomy, only anti-choice individuals believe that abortion is an unjust exhibition of bodily autonomy. They do not believe that bodily autonomy is not a right, but that the preborn human's perceived right to life surpasses the right to bodily autonomy.

Thats not even the issue, either. I thought you knew where pro lifers stood on this? We sont want to see women jailed for doing dives off the diving board, not knowing that it could hurt their babies. We dont believe fetal rights surpass the womens rights. I dont even know where you are getting this from, aside from pulling it out of thin air.

Quote: As far as conciousness is concerned, no, I am not psychic, but one does not need to be psychic to know that until around the third trimester, a preborn human has no sensory perception. All knowledge, thoughts, and emotions are gained from sensory perception; without it, there is no consciousness.

No you know from the technology we have, when fetuses have "perception" of their senses. We do not have adequate technology to measure sensory perception in single celled humans, therefore all of your assertions are merely based on some pretend psychic ability, and nothing more. And you contradicted yourself again, because you have said that until the 8th week it has no sensory perception, therefore you need to clarify your own standpoint on all this, for yourself.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Killing is killing, and you will have to make up your mind about this one, Prole
I have not, and am hesitant to do so when two such valued rights (the right to life and the right to bodily autonomy) are in conflict with each other. If my agnosticism as to whether abortions after the development of consiousness are justified or not, and whether they should be legal or not, is frusterating to you, just know that it is for me as well.

It's Scylla and Charybdis, with no space in between. Perhaps you can appreciate my reluctance to sail.

So now, you admit that life IS a valued right?

Sorry, hun, but youre not making much sense today. I realise this is a tough subject for you, due to being kinda on the fence, but being on the fence does not make you pro choice, either. Just think about that.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

[Digression]
I believe that anyone is whatever religion they consider themselves to be, even if they do not subscribe to all the tenets of that religion or hold a different interpretation of what it means to be a member of that religion to the more vocal majority. To me, a Muslim who does not pray five times a day is still a Muslim. A Jew who eats bacon cheeseburgers is still a Jew. And a Christian who does not oppose abortion on legal and/or moral grounds is still a Christian. Religion, spirituality, and truly any belief system is ultimately personal, and one must decide which principles hold true and which do not. Simply because one's interpretation of religion differs from someone else's does not mean that either of them are not members of that religion, but merely that they interpret it differently. Whether or not one is a member of a religion, then, is not a matter of outside perception, but of personal perception. You are what you consider yourself.
[/Digression]



No, if you are a jew who prefers to sin than to follow his religious principles, then youre not really a jew. Subscribing to your own religion, is not following the word of your God, and is not a truthful religion. Same goes for Christians.

I can't agree here. Just because does not follow every single tenets of a religion does not mean they are not members of that religion. What about Catholics who use birth control? Are they not Catholic then? What about Christians who work on Sundays, are they not Christian?

[SpellJammer]

Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

Sense when does it matter what people refer to themselves as? An upper-middle class white boy says he's black cause he listens to rap music and wears a beanie.. And you know damn well it happens, and how stupid it sounds..

That's exactly how somebody appears when they claim to be Christian yet are pro-rights, it's hardly Christian-like at all..

[Gilbert1908]

SpellJammer wrote: Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

Sense when does it matter what people refer to themselves as? An upper-middle class white boy says he's black cause he listens to rap music and wears a beanie.. And you know damn well it happens, and how stupid it sounds..

That's exactly how somebody appears when they claim to be Christian yet are pro-rights, it's hardly Christian-like at all..

Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;

[The Grandmaster]

SpellJammer wrote: Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

Sense when does it matter what people refer to themselves as? An upper-middle class white boy says he's black cause he listens to rap music and wears a beanie.. And you know damn well it happens, and how stupid it sounds..

That's exactly how somebody appears when they claim to be Christian yet are pro-rights, it's hardly Christian-like at all..

I see. So to be Christian, Spelljam, means to be necessarily against freedoms and rights and autonomy?

[Sailor Moon]

Gilbert1908 wrote: SpellJammer wrote: Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

Sense when does it matter what people refer to themselves as? An upper-middle class white boy says he's black cause he listens to rap music and wears a beanie.. And you know damn well it happens, and how stupid it sounds..

That's exactly how somebody appears when they claim to be Christian yet are pro-rights, it's hardly Christian-like at all..

Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;

To be religious is to worship and abide by the standards of your religion, it is not to make up your own religion. To only follow the certain portions of your religion that you choose to follow, is being only lukewarm in your religion, and it is, in fact, not being true to your religion, whatsoever.

With Christians, youre either true to God OR youre true to Satan. God says that he would prefer you to be either Hot or Cold, never lukewarm, as this is not following his teachings, and makes his judgements more difficult. He doesnt want to punish us, so only "half" loving or "half following" his ways, are not in keeping with Christianity, in other words. Hey maybe when youre atheist, you can make up your own rules, and accept it when proclaimers of having religion do this, also, and maybe you think this helps you out somehow, but it really does not. To do not what God says, is to do what Satan says, and that will not make God happy at all. To be religious, you must be willing to make life sacrifices for Him, rather than sacrifice Him for your life.

Get it?

[SpellJammer]

Gilbert1908 wrote: Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;
No, SpellJammer doesn't.

There's nothing empowering about freedom, freedom is a dangerous illussion that has lead men to disease, abuse, death, and suffering.. there are only right choices and wrong choices..

Free-will hardly shapes our lives, it moreso shapes our enviorment, our presence, and the presence of God is what shapes our lives. There are forces moving around which you cannot begin to fathom, don't feel bad, neither can SpellJammer..

There's nothing good or honost about freedom, freedom is a lie as said before. A dangerous, glorified, lie..

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote: .Get it?

No offense Sailor, but I do not think you are in a position to lecture Gilbert on religion.

[The Grandmaster]

SpellJammer wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;
No, SpellJammer doesn't.

There's nothing empowering about freedom, freedom is a dangerous illussion that has lead men to disease, abuse, death, and suffering.. there are only right choices and wrong choices..

Free-will hardly shapes our lives, it moreso shapes our enviorment, our presence, and the presence of God is what shapes our lives. There are forces moving around which you cannot begin to fathom, don't feel bad, neither can SpellJammer..

There's nothing good or honost about freedom, freedom is a lie as said before. A dangerous, glorified, lie..

I think that you’d need to demonstrate a reason for believing this.

[SpellJammer]

That's like saying The Pope has no buisness telling Kevin Smith how to be a Catholic, you can't compare the two! Sailor Moon is amazing! :-D

[The Grandmaster]

SpellJammer wrote: That's like saying The Pope has no buisness telling Kevin Smith how to be a Catholic, you can't compare the two! Sailor Moon is amazing! :-D

If you see Gilbert’s other posts, you’ll see most of them are in the religion section, and he is quite well versed in the subject. I don’t believe your comparison of the Pope and Kevin Smith is even within the realm of reality.

[Gilbert1908]

Sailor Moon wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: SpellJammer wrote: Prole wrote: Are you saying, Sailor, that anyone who doesn't believe abortion is wrong is not "a real Christian"? Because if that is the case (and I apologize in advance if my assumption was false), then I very much disagree. Regardless of whether or not Christians who believe abortion is amoral and/or believe it should legally be a personal choice and nothing more, the fact remains that those individuals refer to themselves as and consider themseves to be Christian.

Sense when does it matter what people refer to themselves as? An upper-middle class white boy says he's black cause he listens to rap music and wears a beanie.. And you know damn well it happens, and how stupid it sounds..

That's exactly how somebody appears when they claim to be Christian yet are pro-rights, it's hardly Christian-like at all..

Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;

To be religious is to worship and abide by the standards of your religion, it is not to make up your own religion. To only follow the certain portions of your religion that you choose to follow, is being only lukewarm in your religion, and it is, in fact, not being true to your religion, whatsoever.

With Christians, youre either true to God OR youre true to Satan. God says that he would prefer you to be either Hot or Cold, never lukewarm, as this is not following his teachings, and makes his judgements more difficult. He doesnt want to punish us, so only "half" loving or "half following" his ways, are not in keeping with Christianity, in other words. Hey maybe when youre atheist, you can make up your own rules, and accept it when proclaimers of having religion do this, also, and maybe you think this helps you out somehow, but it really does not. To do not what God says, is to do what Satan says, and that will not make God happy at all. To be religious, you must be willing to make life sacrifices for Him, rather than sacrifice Him for your life.

Get it?

I am happy to discuss this with you in the religion forum if you like. But I asked a simple question of Spelljammer.

And I got his answer.

Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular can not be summed up in a paragraph like one would make a comment on a mellon in the market.

I can assure you that within your comment you are both completely right and completely wrong and at the same time.

I simply wanted to know his opinion on the comment I posted because it supports individual freedom and it is taken directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which can read in parts like the US Constitution or a Trade Union set of goals and bylaws.

Catholicism is compatible with ANY form of government which promotes both freedom for and respect of the individual.

[Gilbert1908]

SpellJammer wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: Do you agree with this?

Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness;
No, SpellJammer doesn't.

There's nothing empowering about freedom, freedom is a dangerous illussion that has lead men to disease, abuse, death, and suffering.. there are only right choices and wrong choices..

Free-will hardly shapes our lives, it moreso shapes our enviorment, our presence, and the presence of God is what shapes our lives. There are forces moving around which you cannot begin to fathom, don't feel bad, neither can SpellJammer..

There's nothing good or honost about freedom, freedom is a lie as said before. A dangerous, glorified, lie..

I would like to know the alternative to the ideal of personal/individual freedom? What would you prefer or reccomend?

[Dezz]

SpellJammer wrote: Did you ever stop to think about the fallacy in your arguments? You WON! Abortion has been legal for how long?! So why are you complaining?!

Oh wait, becayse pro-choice people are liberal, and that's all liberals know how to do is whine. Slipped SpellJammer's mind.. :roll:

But in all seriousness, if you wish to prove SpellJammer wrong that you're just emo panzywastes who are spoiled rotten children. (Children killing children, would make a cool horror movie..) Then explain to him why you dillegently defend a position that is already nationaly approved..

Dezz finds it funny that SpellJammer whines about liberals whining. Dezz finds it pathetic that SpellJammer can't even ask a question without taking little cheap shots.

Dezz is now thirsty and will go to find a bottle of water.

[Enoch]

SpellJammer wrote: That's like saying The Pope has no buisness telling Kevin Smith how to be a Catholic, you can't compare the two! Sailor Moon is amazing! :-D

Incorrect connection. The Pope is the head of a religious body to which Kevin Smith voluntarily belongs. The connection isn't the same. Despite the personal feelings you have about Sailor Moon, she is not the head of a religious organization and is, therefore, not in a position to tell people what is or is not acceptable in religion.

[SpellJammer]

No, but she IS the embodiment of what a Christian should be. Which is good enough.. 8:)

[Enoch]

SpellJammer wrote: No, but she IS the embodiment of what a Christian should be. Which is good enough.. 8:)

In your opinion...

[SpellJammer]

Read The Bible if you don't believe SpellJammer. She thinks along lines the way Jesus did.. Especialy if you knew about the unpublished Biblical texts keptout to make Jesus appear less human and more godly..

Quote: I would like to know the alternative to the ideal of personal/individual freedom? What would you prefer or reccomend?
Totalirinsm is the only option. You may not like it, but it works. You've just been brainwashed into beliving freedom is worth the effort, freedom is the reason your life s*cks and little puppies die or whatever..

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote: SpellJammer wrote: That's like saying The Pope has no buisness telling Kevin Smith how to be a Catholic, you can't compare the two! Sailor Moon is amazing! :-D

Incorrect connection. The Pope is the head of a religious body to which Kevin Smith voluntarily belongs. The connection isn't the same. Despite the personal feelings you have about Sailor Moon, she is not the head of a religious organization and is, therefore, not in a position to tell people what is or is not acceptable in religion.

Thank you, SpellJammer, as always.. awwww!

Anyone who understands God and has a close relationship to him, can, and IS ENCOURAGED TO speak his word. You dont have to be the pope, the bishop, or the pastor to spread the good news and glorify him. This is something he wants ALL of his faithful children (sheep, baa) to do.