Political Crossfire Forums

[forthegreatergood]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Apply complete skepticism to all of your beliefs, doubt absolutely eveything.

***Maybe you should be skeptical about applying complete skepticism to all of your beliefs. Maybe you should doubt doubting absolutely everything.

You'll come out the other side with a belief system you'll keep for the rest of your life.

Trust no one, take no ones opinions or views as fact. There is no such thing as fact or truth only differing levels of justification.

***Maybe you shouldn't trust that trust no one statement.

Knowledge of GOOD and evil.

[forthegreatergood]

cassandrabandra wrote: brendan101 wrote: Though I'm only 16, I've thought about the existence of god quite a lot. I'm not sure what I am. I enjoy the tenents of both judaism and christianity because of the good morals and high standards expected. I like the buddhist idea that life is suffering, and the only way out is through a life of no extremes, and confucian teachings of love and respect for the family (though confucianism is arguably not a religion). However I've come to believe that religion is merely just created by humans to cope with what we don't understand. I'd make a chart, but the number of non-believers has increased with every scientific discovery. As we discover more and more about life, the less and less we need a god. To me, it seems a god made out of ignorance 2000 years ago (christian) or 5500 (jewish) or 1600 (muslim) is a religion i WANT to follow. I want to believe in something, just not believe for the sake of believing. I want to truly believe something. Many of my christian friends say without a doubt they know god exists, my jewish friends say without a doubt god exists within all of us. I want to know what this means.

I was a few years younger than you when I became angry at God for the state of the world, and like you, I read heaps about different religions ... tried a few 'cults' along the way ... a 'seeker' looking for something to believe in. I figured fairly early in the piece there wasn't a god, and was attracted to science ... but I still wanted to believe in something ... anything.

In the end ... I realised it didn't matter. sometimes I thought I was quite spiritual - when I got a sense of connection - which seems to happen quite often really, but often, I was, well agnostic.

In the end I realised it didn't matter. I forgave God for the sins of men, but really didn't need to believe anyway. Maybe there is God, and maybe there isn't, but whether or not God exists, I am responsible for how I live my life. It is me who makes choices about how I relate to others, and it is this that brings me a sense of connection with others, and my world.

If I do not treat others (and our world) with respect, and how I would be treated myself, it impacts negatively on me far more than if someone else treats me poorly. I can't change the actions of others (although if I stick to treating them with respect, it might influence the way they relate to me), but I can choose how I behave. If I choose 'right action', then I feel content within myself. And its been interesting that I have found this even when 'right action' has cost me in a material sense.

I figure that if God exists, then he/she wouldn't have much of a problem with that approach to life. But it really doesn't matter anyway.

The other thing is ... you will find your own path ... and any twists and turns on the path are just about learning ... so don't despair if you don't seem to find the answers you seek as soon as you would like.

***Blame those who should be blamed for what they should be blamed for.

[scholar]

This post goes to thexrated, who, thankfully, responded directly to my post.

Unforunately, like many in our argumentative society, you fall trap to circular reasoning and your arguments are unfounded and not supported. I have, as a studying theologian, been confronted with the same type of "sound good arguments" that you have presented here.

My research in to the concepts of Darwin and other evolutionary theory has would not be regarded as "selective" rather in depth. Although you try to argue my points directly you fail to give any logical answers or responses to my contentions. Rather your entire post is a "you should do your homework" type of message. Rather than try to sound smart you should actually provide us with real thought provoking statements that would challenge our thinking- which is the ultimate purpose of these types of discourses.

An example of your unsupported claims would be your critique on the "creation of the subconsious" argument. You suggest that my analysis would rest soley on the fact that something did, in fact, create the subconscience. I would contend someone did create the subconscience. If not, where in your entire reponse, is reference to actual theories, theorists, philosophies, theologian, etc to support you claim.

One cannot simply suggest that X is untrue because I disagree. For a reader or responder to come to a conclusion you must have supported claims and you fail to do that.

However, I would encourage you to continue in your quest for knowledge. I will definitly continue in my quest. Please continue to respond so that the original question posted can be answered or thought our clearly.

Thank you, and GOD BLESS YOU!

[connermt]

scholar wrote: Hey this is to the kid who posted the original message

First, as a young person myself I have had to battle with those same questions about God. I read the theories of the greatest critics of religion and the philosophies of some of the most respected and regarded theologians. I have come to the conclusion that God does in fact exist. This reason I have come to this conclusion are as follows...
1. The subconsicous has been created and gives us the ability to think, even when we don't try to (i.e., dreams). Athiest would lead you to believe that the subconscience created the concept of God (see the philosophy of Sigmund Freud). BUT my question would be what or who created the subconscience. It is impossible for X to create X. This is more illogical than people would suggest religion is.

2. Every single person on planet earth that has ever lived has had a completely different personality than another. Even twins come into this world with different personalities. HOW? When I questioned by biology teacher who has a Ph.D he could not explain the answer to this question (nor could he answer the question regarding the subconscience). If you accept that fact the humans are just here as a coincedence of nature then you are conceding to the point that we are just, soley, lumps and clusters of matter. If this is true, how is the personality of a person, or any animal for that matter, different. Every plant (which is just clusters of matter) does exactly the same things if put in the same exact situations, right? They go through the processes of photosynthesis, they grow with sunlight and water, and die in darkness. If humans were just clusters of matter, why then are we not all the same. We all have the same elements.

3. Another question I would put in the hands of God- Why is there no other animal on earth as highly advanced as the human being. Why is it that the only animal that was the "fittest to survive" was the human being. Darwin theory would suggest that only the strong survive because they adapt to change and reproduce with those adaptions. Why then has only humans been able to do so? There are animals that are still alive today that have been around longer than you and I, longer than humans period (more than 10,000 years) and they are no where near what the human being is. The cockroach, crockadile, and many other animals have all been on planet earth for much longer than human beings. So, why is the only animal closest to the human is the chimp?!?! Evolution has some major flaws.
NOTE: Just because I am religous does not mean that I fundamentaly reject all of Darwins theory of evolution! There are some very true and undeniable aspects but there are some major flaws. In other words I do not believe that evolution and bible contradict each other. As the philosopher Hegel would teach us, the answer is neither in the thesis nor the antithesis, but rather in the synthesis.

The are just a few of the reasons why I know there is a God. Now to explain why I am a Christian.
I am a Christian because no other person who has ever walked this earth been more pure than Jesus Christ. Judaism, Islam, Buddism, Hinduism, and many other well followed religons all respect the morale of Jesus Christ. The Holy Quran (Islam), states the Jesus is the best example for man to emulate! Judaism, although they don't believe that Jesus is the messiah (I will address this later), believe that Jesus was an extremely Holy man.

All in all, I am only saying that i follow Christ because he is the most Holy, not only from a Christian perspective, and he has fulfilled EVERY prophecy of the Torah (Judaism)!!! I am not saying that anyones religon is wrong. I am simply saying that I believe in God and I believe in the Son of God.

I would challenge any athiest to an argument over the concepts of religon and the existance of God. I would encourage anyone who has questions regarding God to look into the philosophy of Paul Tillich.

sorry for the length of this post, there was just a lot that I had to get off my chest.

Have a blessed day! +p

I know this is a debate forum, but why are some people tearing up this kid's response? It seemed to me the originator of the post was asking for some guidance & this guy provided his specific view on the matter. He did what someone asked him to do.
One person asks for different opinions & has gotten some. I just don't get why people have to jump on other people's post on here in this manner...but hey, that's just me

[Doowstados]

In my opinion you should believe what you want to believe, if you don't agree with any already formal beliefs them simply mold them to what you like an practice it personally. (Just don't start a cult, that could get dangerous)

[lil Politician Faw]

I almost took this post as if it were written to me. I am only 15 and have the same problem. The question that always gets me going though when thinking about religion is where we go when we die. I have read to everyones responses individually and have taken in alot, but still feel the same way about religion. I strongly believe in A god. I also, however, do not believe in religion. As already stated multiple times, it is just a comfort zone created by doubt and fear within humans. Another question I have about religion, as touched on a little bit already in this thread, is which religion is right? I have taken the time to trace back oldest religions all originated in the middle east. This makes me question, how can it be fair that someone living in say asia, who is not a christian, have a chance to learn and follow christianity when it is only practice majorly in N.America and most of europe? (Just a rough idea of how millions of questions arrise) But to you Brendan, I want to find, not "the right" religion, not "the right" science, I simply want to find what I feel most comfortable with and what I personaly feel is best for me. Thats all I can say for ya man. Hit me a pm if ya ever wanna talk =)

[Doowstados]

Lil, being a christian in asia is like being a budhist here. (Mostly, anyway.) I believe there are more restrictions as far as religions go in most of asia, but i'm not completely sure.

[ieatfood]

lil Politician Faw wrote: I almost took this post as if it were written to me. I am only 15 and have the same problem. The question that always gets me going though when thinking about religion is where we go when we die. I have read to everyones responses individually and have taken in alot, but still feel the same way about religion. I strongly believe in A god. I also, however, do not believe in religion. As already stated multiple times, it is just a comfort zone created by doubt and fear within humans. Another question I have about religion, as touched on a little bit already in this thread, is which religion is right? I have taken the time to trace back oldest religions all originated in the middle east. This makes me question, how can it be fair that someone living in say asia, who is not a christian, have a chance to learn and follow christianity when it is only practice majorly in N.America and most of europe? (Just a rough idea of how millions of questions arrise) But to you Brendan, I want to find, not "the right" religion, not "the right" science, I simply want to find what I feel most comfortable with and what I personaly feel is best for me. Thats all I can say for ya man. Hit me a pm if ya ever wanna talk =)

you live in NC

just be a christian

you live in america--its the easiest way to go

whatever you do, don't become a Muslim
their religion is way too hardcore for most americans--praying 5 times a day, fasting for a month, and eating only halal?

hah, try findin halal in NC

plus, women have to wear funny clothing and oh, almost forgot--no dating before your arranged marriage.

[Doowstados]

ieatfood you have to be one of the stupidest people ive ever heard.

[ieatfood]

Doowstados wrote: ieatfood you have to be one of the stupidest people ive ever heard.

then you probably have not heard many people

however, i'd appreciate it if next time, you actually had an argument or something--you know, something that actually is worth posting.

[Canadian_Patriot]

"Just don't start a cult, that could get dangerous"

But aren't organized religions already dangerous cults responsible for the deaths of many over the years. Beleifs are fine however when you start teaching and conditioning others to follow your personal ideologue then you run into problems. these problems are racism, discrimination, meglomania, superiority and genocide among other things associated with religeos beleifs.

"Evil is the state of mind, men are not evil nor do we have evil intentions we just do evil things and commit evil with good intentions."

[Gus]

The Impeacher wrote: The Good Doctor wrote: Rilzic wrote: To: the good doctor. I thought atheism was the belief in NO god.

Correct. Due to absence of evidence, I lack belief in God. Therefore, I'm an atheist.

My particular variety of atheism is called "weak atheism." But it is atheism nonetheless.

This is sometimes incorrectly called "agnostic." An agnostic is someone who believes God to be unknowable; that no proof could exist to convince us one way or the other. They are undecided, but FOREVER undecided. Nothing can convince them one way or the other.

no offense, but it you have proof, you would KNOW god exists. waiting for proof to justify a belief is for stupid asshats who dont understand logic 101.

belief is what you do when facts are immaterial to the issue.

by the way, a THEIST means belief in a SUPERNATURAL GOD. do you expect proof of the supernatural?

NO, proof is for the NATURAL WORLD.

i am sorry, but your should either be a deist or a strict atheist. proof and belief are seperate realms, my friend.

if you have proof of god, you dont have reason to BELIEVE, you would KNOW FACTUALLY that he exists.

seriously man, get with it. me, i am a essentially a DEIST. i beieve in something because essentially i do not know what proof i am seeking to KNOW. since i exist, i must have had a cause.

i call the first cause, or prime mover, GOD.

i fail to see how any reasonable, rational man can accept his existance and deny the concept of a natural god or "CREATOR." it is illogical to make any other conclusion, or to wait for evidence to sustain a BELIEF.

FAITH | REASON

separated at birth.
The idea of a prime mover is just as logically absurd. You are rejecting an infinite chain of causes in favor of an infinite being/causeless cause; both are equally and obviously absurd.

What they don't teach you in Logic 101 is that modern logic does have bounds, and you have crossed those bounds.

Myself? I am an agnostic, and like The Good Doctor said about agnostics, I don't think it's possible to prove the existence or non-existence of God; it's simply outside the realm of understanding.

[Doowstados]

ieatfood, the reason your so stupid is because of your narrow minded view of the world. You only travel the easy routes apparently, and never stand up for what you believe in, hence you are a narrow minded fool. America was founded on people who stood up for what they believed in, you apparently don't understand that as long as what you do is what you believe in, you will be truly happy. Maybe you are happy just doing what others tell you.


Canadian, the definition of "cult" is actually something in relation to the worship of lucifer and/or other things that involve live sacrification etc. Religion is in relation to a god or some other deity who doesnt "require sacrifice". So no, mainstream religions aren't cults.

[Gus]

Doowstados, check your PMs.

[LostSoul3412]

Everyone has a religion. Whether it's organized or not is the key issue. There is no difference between Satanism and Christianity. They are both beliefs based off of the notion of something divine that cannot be proved. That is really what religion is: belief in something that cannot be proved.

Personally, I like to believe that I follow my own religion: Transcendental Deism.

I personally believe that the universe was created by some cosmic energy, but not a divine being (a.k.a. God), and still exists in everything in the universe today. In you, in me, in a tree, in a piece of bread, in everything. I guess the best example is the Star Wars "Force". As nerdy as it sounds, I believe that there is something within every singe object or creature that we cannot explain.

I believe that even though I was confirmed into the Catholic church at age 16.

I would say that you should not ask others about what to follow. Reach inside yourself and follow your own heart and your own beliefs. Even if it is not an organized religion, that should not matter. Create your own beliefs, and don't submit your own ideals to a prewritten set of beliefs.

[Doowstados]

Aha, that kind of belief is a paradox, because what if someone (like me) chooses not to have religion. Is my absence of religion a religion? I don't think it is, but you do, meaning that religion is an opinion, just like most everything else.

[cassandrabandra]

lil Politician Faw wrote: The question that always gets me going though when thinking about religion is where we go when we die.

the eternal question.

Quote: I have read to everyones responses individually and have taken in alot, but still feel the same way about religion. I strongly believe in A god.

If you feel comfortable with this, then that's fine. regardless of why

Quote: I also, however, do not believe in religion.

you don't have to - if it seems a bit false to you, for whatever reason, then no matter what, you're not ever going to be 100% comfortable with it. If however you found you could embrace religion (of any sort) then it would be fine for you to stick with it.

Quote: Another question I have about religion, as touched on a little bit already in this thread, is which religion is right? I have taken the time to trace back oldest religions all originated in the middle east. This makes me question, how can it be fair that someone living in say asia, who is not a christian, have a chance to learn and follow christianity when it is only practice majorly in N.America and most of europe? (Just a rough idea of how millions of questions arrise)

there is no right and no wrong religion. there can be some pretty stupid interpretations of religion, but you can find some of the same basic tenets in all the book religions, in Buddhism, in Hinduism, in Taoism and even in other belief systems outside these. They are all basically put together (sometimes by a combination of people over a long period of time) by people who thought at some length about right/wrong, human nature, the meaning of life etc, etc ... and in many ways its true that great minds DO think alike. The things that differ between religions tend to be the things that divide us ... but thats because we choose to focus on those differences, rather than the core of the religion.

But none of this matters if you don't believe in a religion. You are free to believe in God (or not, as the case may be) and treat all religions the same. Recognise the good in them all, because they are the values that in the end will bring you the most contentment in your life.

Quote: But to you Brendan, I want to find, not "the right" religion, not "the right" science, I simply want to find what I feel most comfortable with and what I personaly feel is best for me. Thats all I can say for ya man. Hit me a pm if ya ever wanna talk =)

and if you are 15 years old you are streets ahead of most adults - congratulations!

[LostSoul3412]

Doowstados wrote: Aha, that kind of belief is a paradox, because what if someone (like me) chooses not to have religion. Is my absence of religion a religion? I don't think it is, but you do, meaning that religion is an opinion, just like most everything else.

The absence of any religion is still a belief; its a belief that there is no god, no divine power, no higher entity. Believing that there is none of that is a belief, just the same as believing that there is some higher power. Religion is an opinion. Where politics are opinions on government, religion is an opinion on the divine.

[Doowstados]

Actually, where in this post did I say i didn't believe there was a higher power? All I said was that I do not worship a higher power, even though there has to be one of some type, because we are here. Something had to create us, and along the creator of us would have to have a creator and that creator would have to, and so on. Me choosing to not to worship a higher power does not mean I don't believe there is one. And actually from where your coming from, the absence of a religion just means that you don't believe in anything that has been set in stone (the bible, the quaran etc.) not that you don't believe in a higher power, you just don't believe in any already thought of. Also, politics aren't opinions on the goverment, they are what the goverment runs on.

[Reform]

Can you define love?