Political Crossfire Forums

[cassandrabandra]

garyd wrote: Cassandra I am most emphatically not saying the Christian are about perfecting the world Nor for that matter are the Islamists both are about salvation which is viewed as an escape from this world with your individuality in tact. While I can not say with certainty that Islam does not believe this world to be perfectible by any act of man I will guarantee you the no mainline Christian sect believes this world is either perfect or perfectible in no small part because humanity with the tools we have to work with is neither perfect nor perfectible.

hmmm - well - I don't know about individuality being intact ... I think thats more of a modern concept. Islam is about submission to god, or god's will ... and I think christianity also pays lip service at least to this. traditional societies like the ones these religions developed in were collectivist (in the social/psychological sense) rather than individualist ... they didn't put the same emphasis on individualism that modern western societies do. In all honesty its hard for us to really quite grasp the world view of the societies these values developed in.

As to the perfectability of the world - yes, you are right, neither Christian nor Muslim will see perfection as attainable ...but both do consider the importance of good works. Some variations of post reformist christianity don't place the emphasis on it, but faith, hope and CHARITY was what I grew up with, and I know that giving help to the poor is one of the five pillars of Islam.

In Islam there is a concept of Wajib - which is more than just duty. (I am sure Saracen could enlighten us on exactly what it means) It is about what is right, and it includes acts of social responsibility - in some ways it is similar to the 'right action' of the Buddhist. These actions are needed in order to maintain balance within a community - and far more emphasis is placed, in more traditional societies, on maintaining social cohesion than on the rights or the importance of the individual. In fact, in many societies an individual's status is determined not by what he owns, but by his relationship with others.

While we cannot make the world perfect, we can do the right thing in our own world (ie in our relationships with others) and this keeps some kind of balance and harmony in the world. Actions which contribute to this are valued in traditional societies, whether Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Taoist or Iriquois.

[Gregolian]

THEXRATED wrote: Have you read the holy books from any of those religions?

Helena posts an excellent question. What you really should do is read and read from different sources both supporting and negating arguments.

or become an atheist like me.... that cures all the problems and foolishness of religion....

[CSA Davis]

It's your lucky day! I just so happen to offer all the religious answers you need. If you merely give me a lifetime pledge of servitude, I will save you when the nukes start going off. I not only have the Fountain of Youth on my property, I have the biggest fallout shelter in the world.

[Sallust]

I, myself, am an atheist, but I'm not really sure of anything. That is not to say I am agnostic, simply that I have a large imagination. I think that if a God does exist, he is not worthy of my worship, since prayers tend to do little, and even if they did do something, this God seems to think that you can't be a good person if you don't follow his religion. If he doesn't care, and only judges you by what you are inside, then I wouldn't worship him anyway, since it wouldn't make a difference and prayer would be something of a waste of time. Anyway, if God is truly omnipotent, then he knows exactly what will happen in my future, so I am already judged.

[Gregolian]

just listen to the band in my sig and ye shall find out what i think about religion

[DevilMan]

I may be able to help you. I my self just lost the faith. I was born and raise catholic... Can you blame me? :lol:

Any way I lost the faith due to logic. Here is one of my thought processes... The act of forgiving a person is based on knowing why they did what they did. If you get in an argument with a friend and they say their sorry and you forgive them, you obviously understand why they argued with you. If god knows all he knows why we sin. He would forgive all even if you don't say your sorry. He would understand why people don't believe in him. There would be no hell. He would forgive Satan and help him with his problems. This is not the case. God punishes the people with damnation. Ever one has a reason for why they do bad things, even Hitler felt justified in his massacre of the innocent. God, in my mind, can not exist in the form the bible describes him because it is a self reference paradox, it has no end.

I do however believe there may be a god like figure out some where intangible, a being of inter-dimensional proportions. But I don't believe in a man sitting in the stratosphere shooting fireballs at sinners.

Perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps I will burn in hell for eternity for my words of ill faith. What ever all the cool parties happen in hell anyway! :twisted:

[Anyis]

Hey I had a similar delimma at the beggining of the year. I began reading the New Testament because it was available to me and religious findings that I could on the internet. However, after longing for an almighty being I finally decided on what I truly believe which is simply there is no answer...I know that may not be what many people in your situation want to hear. Now-a-days I consider myself agnostic, basically I don't think there is any true evidence to support the belief of a God nor do I believe it can be disproved. I simply accept that I don't know. But accepting that you don't know for sure does not mean that you can't still hope that a heavenly utopia does exist after death. Nothing wrong with staying positive :)
Anyis