Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

First of all, I would like to say Shalom Alekhem/Salaamu Alaikum to all who read this. :)

I'm taking an introductory Religion course and I have this little assignment, and I would appreciate your help in a little discussion.
The assignment is about comparing two places of worship: one being the one I go to (a Mosque) and any other place of my choice. Out of my respect and curiosity, I chose that other place of worship to be a Synagogue. My main questions are as follows:

- What are the main common external and internal features of Synagogues (floor plan, altars, pews (are there?), etc...) ?
- How is the indoor space of a Synagogue accomodating for worship? I mean, for example, mosques are spaced out inside and there are no chairs because people who pray require some space to pray the way they do.
- For those who know what a mosque looks like, inside and outside, are there any similarities between the structures? If there are, what are those similarities?
- What makes Synagogue architecture unique?

These are the first questions that come into my mind. I have several others, but I hope you guys don't mind helping me out on this one. I've always been eager to answer questions about Islam as much as I've been eager to learn more about Judaism. But I'd like to address the questions one-by-one, so I'll start with the first one:

- What are the main common external and internal features of Synagogues (floor plan, altars, pews (are there?), etc...) ?

Thanks in advance. :)

[Mailech]

A synagogue has an ark by the front wall that will contain at least on but usually several Torah Scrolls.
The front wall, i.e. the wall where the ark is, and teh wall that people pray towards, is always facing Jerusalem. So in America it faces east. in other parts of the world it faces whatever direction is necessary. If the syangogue is in Jerusalem, then it faces the Temple Mount aka the Har Habayot, what Muslims call Haram Es Sharif.

The area to get to the ark is usually on a platform.

Then in front of the platform there is a shtender, which I guess is a podium. that faces the ark, that is where the person who leads the prayers stands.

Then behind that, there is a Bimah, which is a table with a tilted top, that is where the Torah is read from, although some syanagogues have the leader of the prayers stand by the bimah.

There are seats for people to sit, but a good one has room to stand comfortably in front of your seat, since some of the service is done standing.

Usually in the front on one side of the ark the Rabbi sits facing the crowd.

In orthodox syangogues there is a seperate section for women, where this is located is the perogative of the architect. There are those that sit in a balcony, some in the back, some on the side next to the men's section. But if the women are on the same floor as the men (i.e. not on a balcony) then there is a curtain or some structure that seperates.

There are also other aspects. Like there is a Candld Always burning, called the Ner Tamid, altough in most places today it is a lightbulb, that flickers, or at least an orange light bulb. This comemorates that fact that in the Temple, there was always a fire going on the main alter. Usually there is also some Menorah, or 7 armed canelabrum. that is usually in front of the shtender.

[Saracen]

Mailech, haven't seen you for quite a while. Thanks for the help. :)

[Mailech]

Saracen wrote: Mailech, haven't seen you for quite a while. Thanks for the help. :)


I just pop my head in once in a while.

If you have any other questions let me know.

[Saracen]

No problem. What I found most interesting is that Synagogues face Jerusalem. This is comparable to mosques facing Mecca. Another interesting point was that you mentioned that some synagogues have a different section for women, just like some mosques.
I think you pretty much answered most if not all my questions. I'll let you know when I have more. :)

[JCool333]

Just to comment on mailech's post-it was complete, but he is referring to Orthodox and most Conservative Jews. Reform Jews do pray without separationg betweeen men and women, from what I've seen.

[Duchifas]

Saracen wrote: No problem. What I found most interesting is that Synagogues face Jerusalem. This is comparable to mosques facing Mecca.

And also very telling as to the myth that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Muslims.....who pray with their butt towards it.

[Saracen]

Duchifas wrote: Saracen wrote: No problem. What I found most interesting is that Synagogues face Jerusalem. This is comparable to mosques facing Mecca.

And also very telling as to the myth that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Muslims.....who pray with their butt towards it.

That isn't true. While those who are situated east of Jerusalem and west of Mecca pray in such a position, you forgot the other 359 degrees in which the directions are either on the side or facing Jerusalem as well, depending on your location in this world. But let's stick to the topic, ok, Duchifas? :wink:
Every time I try to reach out in understanding and respect, you attempt to turn it around.

[Duchifas]

Saracen wrote: Duchifas wrote: Saracen wrote: No problem. What I found most interesting is that Synagogues face Jerusalem. This is comparable to mosques facing Mecca.

And also very telling as to the myth that Jerusalem is a holy city to the Muslims.....who pray with their butt towards it.

That isn't true. While those who are situated east of Jerusalem and west of Mecca pray in such a position, you forgot the other 359 degrees in which the directions are either on the side or facing Jerusalem as well, depending on your location in this world.

Yes, I was clearly talking about those who are between Jerusalem and Meccah. My point here is to underscore the difference in the view of Jerusalem by the two religions.

Quote: But let's stick to the topic, ok, Duchifas? :wink: Every time I try to reach out in understanding and respect, you attempt to turn it around.

No I don't. I understand and respect your (Muslim) viewing of Meccah as your holy place. Hence I make no demands on it, except in jest. If Muslims would only reciprocate with regard to Jerusalem, things would be much better off.

[Saracen]

Duchifas wrote: No I don't. I understand and respect your (Muslim) viewing of Meccah as your holy place. Hence I make no demands on it, except in jest. If Muslims would only reciprocate with regard to Jerusalem, things would be much better off.

If only God made it differently in that the mosque with either built somewhere else or the Temple had a place near it instead of on it.

Now, I ask you, what can you add to what Mailech and JCool333 said about synagogues? :)

[Duchifas]

Saracen wrote: Duchifas wrote: No I don't. I understand and respect your (Muslim) viewing of Meccah as your holy place. Hence I make no demands on it, except in jest. If Muslims would only reciprocate with regard to Jerusalem, things would be much better off.

If only God made it differently in that the mosque with either built somewhere else or the Temple had a place near it instead of on it.

Now, I ask you, what can you add to what Mailech and JCool333 said about synagogues? :)

No, they did a very good job. If you want another short read, this is a good source:

http://www.jewfaq.org/shul.htm

[Saracen]

Duchifas wrote: Saracen wrote: Duchifas wrote: No I don't. I understand and respect your (Muslim) viewing of Meccah as your holy place. Hence I make no demands on it, except in jest. If Muslims would only reciprocate with regard to Jerusalem, things would be much better off.

If only God made it differently in that the mosque with either built somewhere else or the Temple had a place near it instead of on it.

Now, I ask you, what can you add to what Mailech and JCool333 said about synagogues? :)

No, they did a very good job. If you want another short read, this is a good source:

http://www.jewfaq.org/shul.htm

Thanks, Duchifas. I owe you guys. If you have any questions about Islam, and any misconceptions, etc., such as the so-called "corruption" of the Torah and Bible, I can be happy to tell you about that in detail, but I can summarize here:
It mainly has to do with what contradicts between the Torah and the Koran/Hadith. Whatever contradicts, we take the word of the Koran more often than not. :wink:

[Mailech]

But how did those contradictions pop up?

[Duchifas]

Saracen wrote: Duchifas wrote: Saracen wrote: Duchifas wrote: No I don't. I understand and respect your (Muslim) viewing of Meccah as your holy place. Hence I make no demands on it, except in jest. If Muslims would only reciprocate with regard to Jerusalem, things would be much better off.

If only God made it differently in that the mosque with either built somewhere else or the Temple had a place near it instead of on it.

Now, I ask you, what can you add to what Mailech and JCool333 said about synagogues? :)

No, they did a very good job. If you want another short read, this is a good source:

http://www.jewfaq.org/shul.htm

Thanks, Duchifas. I owe you guys. If you have any questions about Islam, and any misconceptions, etc., such as the so-called "corruption" of the Torah and Bible, I can be happy to tell you about that in detail, but I can summarize here:
It mainly has to do with what contradicts between the Torah and the Koran/Hadith. Whatever contradicts, we take the word of the Koran more often than not. :wink:

Nah, not very interested. I personally don't place much validity in what Mohhamed said (no offense), I don't see it as divine by any measure. So to me, the differences between Judaism and Islam aren't really contradictions. A contradiction is usually something that comes from the same source. So if G-d said X in the Torah, and then G-d said that X is total BS in Koran, that would be a contradiction for me. But since I don't view Koran as divine, i.e., it is not G-d speaking, it is not a contradiction for me. It is some guy giving his opinion that Torah is corrupted. Ok, so psholtz does that too, in his own special way. Why is that supposed to be a contradiction? Everyone is free to think what they wish, whether they be Mohammed or psholtz. The only difference is in popularity.

Of course, I understand that you think Koran is divine. So in your mind, there may be possible contradictions between divine word in Torah and Koran. But because I only view one of them as divine, for me there are no contradictions.

[Saracen]

Mailech wrote: But how did those contradictions pop up?

More like revelation. To us, the Koran is more like a new revelation plus an update, more or less.

[Mailech]

Saracen wrote: Mailech wrote: But how did those contradictions pop up?

More like revelation. To us, the Koran is more like a new revelation plus an update, more or less.

You believe that Moshe was a prophet, and he wrote the Torah, now since there are contradictions between the Torah and the Koran, it could not have been right away from Moshe, in fact it could not have been during the time of any of the prophets, since they would have known about it, that according to you would have been until Jesus. Right?

So in that time between Jesus and Mohammed, when did these differences pop up?

[Saracen]

Mailech wrote: Saracen wrote: Mailech wrote: But how did those contradictions pop up?

More like revelation. To us, the Koran is more like a new revelation plus an update, more or less.

You believe that Moshe was a prophet, and he wrote the Torah, now since there are contradictions between the Torah and the Koran, it could not have been right away from Moshe, in fact it could not have been during the time of any of the prophets, since they would have known about it, that according to you would have been until Jesus. Right?

So in that time between Jesus and Mohammed, when did these differences pop up?

That's a very good question and quite thought-provoking, Mailech. Moses was a Prophet and the Torah was revealed to him. That's what we believe. Moreover, there were conflicting cases on the issue of the Messiah and, as one other Muslim on the board (not pharaoh or Glorfindel) mentioned, there were many false Messiahs prior to the coming of Jesus and after his "death" (of course, we believe that he was not crucified as it would not be a fitting fate for a Prophet).

My assumption is that as many as there were false Messiahs, there might have been different interpretations of the Bible and/or some alterations of some sort by these false Messiahs. It's a really confusing matter to begin with because historical accounts on the period between Jesus and Muhammad were not accurate to draw a viable conclusion about how these changes came about. However, we believe that the Koran is the Final Revelation to man from God, and that its words hold true. I have this friend of mine here at university who is studying Judaism (he loves the Talmud btw) and told me that the contradictions between the Torah and Bible with the Koran were not that big, and, as all Muslims believe, the current Torah and Bible still hold some truth, like the Valley of Baca story. In other words, those Muslims who believe that the Torah and Bible were corrupted believe that these books underwent misinterpretations or something of that sort, but they still have a place in Islamic study.

To tell you the truth, it was only till recently that I've started to have this great respect for Judaism, because I have never realized the magnitude of the parallels between our faiths. If only we can set aside our political differences and understand each other instead of engage in counterproductive dialogue (as we see in the ME section).

Duchifas wrote: Nah, not very interested. I personally don't place much validity in what Mohhamed said (no offense), I don't see it as divine by any measure. So to me, the differences between Judaism and Islam aren't really contradictions. A contradiction is usually something that comes from the same source. So if G-d said X in the Torah, and then G-d said that X is total BS in Koran, that would be a contradiction for me. But since I don't view Koran as divine, i.e., it is not G-d speaking, it is not a contradiction for me. It is some guy giving his opinion that Torah is corrupted. Ok, so psholtz does that too, in his own special way. Why is that supposed to be a contradiction? Everyone is free to think what they wish, whether they be Mohammed or psholtz. The only difference is in popularity.

Of course, I understand that you think Koran is divine. So in your mind, there may be possible contradictions between divine word in Torah and Koran. But because I only view one of them as divine, for me there are no contradictions.

I view both as divine. However, God did not say that any X is total BS in the Koran. The only verse is probably the one about Jesus not being crucified. Other than that, you'll find a lot of similarities between the Koran and the Torah as well as encouraging verses like these:

“Believers, Jews, Sabaeans or Christians - whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right - shall have nothing to fear or regret”
-The Quran

Allah says, "And they say: 'None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their (vain) desires. Say, 'Produce your proof if you are truthful.' [2:111] He also says, "(Namely) those whose lives the angels take in a state of purity, saying (to them), 'Peace be on you, enter you the Garden, because of (the good) which you did (in the world)." [16:32]

[Mailech]

First, as a Jew, like Duchifas, I hold no divinity to the Chrisitian additions to the Torah, or to the Koran, and so it is true there are no contradictions.

I know that there are many similarities between the two religions, I used to enjoy discussing this with a Pakistani co-worker. As long as we stayed away from politics we were OK. :wink:

There are many rituals and laws that are very similiar for us.

For you Jesus was the last prophet before Mohammad right? So if there were mistakes in the Torah, would he not have known and corrected it. Yet, you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, and there is a remarkable accuracy of the OT that has lasted for 2000 years, since the time of Jesus. So where could they have come up.

For me the most well known mistake was that Avraham went to sacrifice Yishmael instead of Yitzchak.

[Saracen]

Mailech wrote: First, as a Jew, like Duchifas, I hold no divinity to the Chrisitian additions to the Torah, or to the Koran, and so it is true there are no contradictions.

I know that there are many similarities between the two religions, I used to enjoy discussing this with a Pakistani co-worker. As long as we stayed away from politics we were OK. :wink:

There are many rituals and laws that are very similiar for us.

For you Jesus was the last prophet before Mohammad right? So if there were mistakes in the Torah, would he not have known and corrected it. Yet, you look at the Dead Sea Scrolls, and there is a remarkable accuracy of the OT that has lasted for 2000 years, since the time of Jesus. So where could they have come up.

For me the most well known mistake was that Avraham went to sacrifice Yishmael instead of Yitzchak.

Fair enough, Mailech.

Jesus was indeed the last prophet, but, as I said before, there were many false "Messiahs" or false prophets prior to the coming of Jesus (Moses was NOT one of those false prophets, so don't take me wrong, and neither were the main ones we know today like Jacob, Joseph, Elias, Elisha, etc.)...

So you see contradictions, and I see contradictions... better yet, for future religious discussion, let's put these allegations aside and focus on the matters at hand. We can talk about similarities and differences without accusing each other of being "wrong". Everyone sees his beliefs as the right choice for him/herself. So, let's continue the discussions without accusing each others' texts of being contradictory or undivine. :)

Now, a question about synagogues and prayer: do Jews pray every day at synagogues, or can they pray at home? And what times of the day or week do Jews pray?

[Mailech]

Think about what I said, though, there must be some Muslim idea that addresses the accuracy of the Dead Sea Scrolls, I am just curious what it is.

While we don't have to say it out loud that I am right and you are wrong it is implicit in that you are a Muslim and I am a Jew, and as religious people we don't hold by, well why can't everyone be right. So don't get offended by my questions. If they are stupid, explina why they are, if I am wrong explain why I am, if I am right, explain why it doesn't matter.

Anyway, getting back to:
Saracen wrote: Now, a question about synagogues and prayer: do Jews pray every day at synagogues, or can they pray at home? And what times of the day or week do Jews pray?

Jewish men have to pray 3 times a day everyday once in the morning, once in the afternoon, and once at night. This prayer has to be with 10 Jewish men over the age of 13 and it should be in a synagogue.
But exceptions can be made. Like where I work there is no place for me to say the afternoon prayer with 10 men, so I pray anyway by myself.

So basically, better to pray with 10 outside of a synagogue then not with 10 men, and better to pray by yourself at home or wherever, then not pray at all.

Jewish women are more complicated, some say that they have to say one payer a day of whatever wording they want, some say that they have to pray the morning and afternoon prayer, but no one says that they have to say the evening one, but they can if they choose to. There is no extra obligation for women to pray with 10 men, but if they do then they are able to say certain parts of the prayer that are not said when one is alone (man or woman).