Political Crossfire Forums

[jeechoscopy]

Quote: One of the perennial pre-Columbian contact theories involves ancient visits by the Chinese to America. This is made plausible for several reasons. First of all, the voyage around the great circle route across the Pacific is facilitated by almost constant visibility of land and prevailing sea-currents. China had advanced maritime technology long before the European age of discovery, and historically were known to have taken long sea voyages to distant ports such as Africa, Arabia and India before Vasco de Gamma set sail. And lastly, there are suggestive Chinese accounts of lands far to the East in their chronicles. This book, written in the 19th century by Charles Leland, examines these records, and also reviews some of the evidence for such contacts.

This has remained a popular hypothesis to the current day. For instance, 1421 :The Year China Discovered America, by Gavin Menzies, and Voyages of the Pyramid Builders, by Jeremy P. Tarcher, are two recent books which propose pre-Columbian voyages from China to the New World. However, Leland's Fusang explored this concept over a century ago, and is required reading if you have any interest in this topic.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/fu/

I'm Afraid tomorrow Iranian would claim for that discovery :lol:

For More Ddetails :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4609074.stm

And

http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=5381851

Or

http://www.apol.net/dightonrock/thediscoveryofamericabychineseis.htm

[Deus]

Suckers the both of them, Leif Erikson discovered it WAY BEFORE EITHER!

[Saracen]

Deus wrote: Suckers the both of them, Leif Erikson discovered it WAY BEFORE EITHER!

Are you sure it was Leif Erikson? Or was it Erik the Red?

[Jehan]

Saracen wrote: Deus wrote: Suckers the both of them, Leif Erikson discovered it WAY BEFORE EITHER!

Are you sure it was Leif Erikson? Or was it Erik the Red?

Erik the Red kicked the bucket before the Vikings reached America, if memory serves me right.

[Saracen]

Jehan wrote: Saracen wrote: Deus wrote: Suckers the both of them, Leif Erikson discovered it WAY BEFORE EITHER!

Are you sure it was Leif Erikson? Or was it Erik the Red?

Erik the Red kicked the bucket before the Vikings reached America, if memory serves me right.

Guess I should start reading more history. :lol:

[Chow440104]

Where are the pre-columbian Chinese artifacts in the Americas? There are none.

[jeechoscopy]

Columbus ostensibly thought those inhabitants Indians rather they were ethnic Chinese.

Oh, I see… the hullabaloo against Chinese is not new :roll:

[antonio62]

There is evidence the Egyptians were trading with the Americas. The Vikings were most likely there before them. There was another European who got there before Columbus and possibly before the Chinese if they did indeed go. So it is very unlikely Columbus was the first person to get to the Americas but he was the person who really discovered the Americas in the sense that it was only after him that the Americas became part of the world so to speak.

[jeechoscopy]

antonio62 wrote: There is evidence the Egyptians were trading with the Americas. The Vikings were most likely there before them. There was another European who got there before Columbus and possibly before the Chinese if they did indeed go. So it is very unlikely Columbus was the first person to get to the Americas but he was the person who really discovered the Americas in the sense that it was only after him that the Americas became part of the world so to speak.

Exactly!!

One who doesn’t know what he has discovered is just an idiot. And Columbus seems rather the first discoverer...

An other point at the discovery raises questions about the discovery itself... when so many claims from the different parts of the world are there (the latest might Iranians one :lol: ) the case "discovering a continent" is also seems false.

It's like a question,” who discovered Asia first?"
Or a question about Africa? Its our perception to the people of the past that keeps us in a particular shell, otherwise the world has never lack of the people had global vision.

[Meanstrick]

You know the funniest point about China? They invented paper 2000 years ago, but the oldest chinese document is 300 years old. Mua-ha-ha.....So how can we believe in this stuff about 2000 years old history of paper invention if we don't have documental evidences of this?

[antonio62]

Meanstrick wrote: You know the funniest point about China? They invented paper 2000 years ago, but the oldest chinese document is 300 years old. Mua-ha-ha.....So how can we believe in this stuff about 2000 years old history of paper invention if we don't have documental evidences of this?

They have many Ancient texts from before the Roman times.

[aznninjahitman]

Meanstrick, you are a Philistine.
As a Chinese Nationalist, I would love to hear it verified that we discovered the American continents.
However, as a realist, I doubt it happened. If it did, it was likely accidental, and isolated, or we would probably see some artifacts and such. There are rumors, of a wrecked junk off the South American coast, but I think they're fabricated.
Paper and gunpowder are definites. Paper was not only used as documents, though. Historically, Chinese paper was much more durable than modern paper (actually, paper back in the day generally was so) because it was made out of rags and more robust cellulose fibers. It was used both as a document base as well as a material for insulation, clothing, construction, and blankets. Gunpowder was more for fireworks initially, if I remember correctly. Later on, there were rockets (mainly poisoned arrows with explosive propellant) that were used militarily.

[jeechoscopy]

Meanstrick wrote: You know the funniest point about China? They invented paper 2000 years ago, but the oldest chinese document is 300 years old. Mua-ha-ha.....So how can we believe in this stuff about 2000 years old history of paper invention if we don't have documental evidences of this?
Ooch!!
The map isn't the only paper the World claims to be invented by the Chinese... No, doubt paper and gunpowder the inventions of Chinese… And its very possible Chinese could discover America…

Unfortunately, scholarship is preferred on practice. Today’s world evaluates things by scholarship. Thus the particular hands qualify recognition… It might a good way but so many practices use to go wasted…

However, an old discovery could be rediscovered now scholarly…

Welcome to the forum aznninjahitman!!

[Meanstrick]

You know actually Chineses did NOT invented paper and gunpowder and of course they didn't discover America. This is all bulls**t. Because there are no EVIDENCES of it. The only evidence of this ARE school textbooks.))))

"They have many Ancient texts from before the Roman times."

Man, I told you the most oldest textes from China are 300 years old. The great Chinese civilisation could NOT safe the evidences of this "civilisation".

"Meanstrick, you are a Philistine."

Man, actually I don't care about what you are thinking about me, so relax.


"As a Chinese Nationalist, I would love to hear it verified that we discovered the American continents."

Man, this is the same bulls**t as about paper.

"There are rumors, of a wrecked junk off the South American coast, but I think they're fabricated."

Of course, like all China history. It was fabricated.

"Paper and gunpowder are definites."

Yeah? Who said this? I repeat there aro no evidences.

" Paper was not only used as documents, though. Historically, Chinese paper was much more durable than modern paper (actually, paper back in the day generally was so)"

Bla-bla-bla, How can you explain that there are a lot of european PAPER documents for example 800(!!!) years old and no one chinese of SUCH age? If they USED paper so long WHY they could not NOTICE that their paper is so LOW-QUALITY?))))Man just think about it. So europeans after 1200 years of paper invention started use paper and they used really GOOD paper, but great Chinese civilisation continued use low-quality "durable" paper. This is crazy.



"because it was made out of rags and more robust cellulose fibers. It was used both as a document base as well as a material for insulation, clothing, construction, and blankets."

How can you know it? How can you know what really happened in China 1000 years ago if we don't have written confirmation?))))


"Gunpowder was more for fireworks initially, if I remember correctly. Later on, there were rockets (mainly poisoned arrows with explosive propellant) that were used militarily."

Yeah, sure. And now just THINK people. Chinese invented gunpowder and 500 (!) years used it for FIREWORKS.))))))

When europeans invented gunpowder (independently from China) they IMMEDIATELY invented FIRE-ARMS.

Is it not funnily? I think it is.

[aznninjahitman]

I sense a supreme skeptic... One of those who cling to ideology and believe everything else is false... Maybe I'm starting to contract Russophobia.

[Marcfj]

Deus wrote: Suckers the both of them, Leif Erikson discovered it WAY BEFORE EITHER!

Actually it was Bjarni Herjolfsson who made the discovery. He then reported it to Lief Erikson who later followed up on it.

[aznninjahitman]

... Interesting. I didn't know that. :) Thanks.
I guess you learn something new everyday. :D

[XiangYu]

jeechoscopy wrote: Columbus ostensibly thought those inhabitants Indians rather they were ethnic Chinese.

Oh, I see… the hullabaloo against Chinese is not new :roll:

I was reading about striking similarities between writing systems of the Olmec tribe in the Americas versus the writings of Ancient Chinese Shang Dynasty. The Shang dynasty is dated to be approx 2000 B.C. if I remember correctly. The similarities in writing can not be ignored! I will try and find the link to it tonight...

[XiangYu]

Meanstrick wrote: You know the funniest point about China? They invented paper 2000 years ago, but the oldest chinese document is 300 years old. Mua-ha-ha.....So how can we believe in this stuff about 2000 years old history of paper invention if we don't have documental evidences of this?

Where do you get your information from sir? Here take a look at this :

http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/2003-09/24/content_26514.htm

Quote: The earliest form of paper first appeared in the Western Han Dynasty (206BC-23AD), but the paper was generally very thick, coarse and uneven in their texture, made from pounded and disintegrated hemp fibers. The paper unearthed in a Han tomb in Gansu Province is by far the earliest existing ancient paper, tracing back to the early Western Han Dynasty.

I personally have never laid eyes on this paper that was taken from this Han Tomb in Gansu Province. But if this piece of information is accurate, then I'm sure many scholars have examined and done tests of the above said paper, I'm sure its in some museum somewhere. Besides your childish rhetoric, I have yet to find any source that contradicts that paper first originated in China.

[jeechoscopy]

aznninjahitman wrote: I sense a supreme skeptic... One of those who cling to ideology and believe everything else is false... Maybe I'm starting to contract Russophobia.

What a brave method of self-accountability!!
Everyone cannot think such the way... I'm eager to learn it.

TwinkieDP wrote: Meanstrick wrote: You know the funniest point about China? They invented paper 2000 years ago, but the oldest chinese document is 300 years old. Mua-ha-ha.....So how can we believe in this stuff about 2000 years old history of paper invention if we don't have documental evidences of this?

Where do you get your information from sir? Here take a look at this :

http://www.chinaculture.org/gb/en_aboutchina/2003-09/24/content_26514.htm

Quote: The earliest form of paper first appeared in the Western Han Dynasty (206BC-23AD), but the paper was generally very thick, coarse and uneven in their texture, made from pounded and disintegrated hemp fibers. The paper unearthed in a Han tomb in Gansu Province is by far the earliest existing ancient paper, tracing back to the early Western Han Dynasty.

I personally have never laid eyes on this paper that was taken from this Han Tomb in Gansu Province. But if this piece of information is accurate, then I'm sure many scholars have examined and done tests of the above said paper, I'm sure its in some museum somewhere. Besides your childish rhetoric, I have yet to find any source that contradicts that paper first originated in China.

Their claim may realistic...
You know leather had also been used as a paper but Egyptians never claim for that discovery because of the distinct form of preparation and usage.

I find there other inventions by the ancient Chiniese...



P.S. TwinkieDP, I recognise you by the last line of your signature. :-D