Political Crossfire Forums

[Dezz]

Serious question that I'm sure will anger a lot of people passionate about this either way, but I know that I'm tired of this issue. It occupies entirely too much of this nations attention and support. People actually support potential judges and elected officials just for this issue and that worries me.

I mean no offense by this but the middle ground is often kept quiet in this debate and I don't think it should be.

BTW - Hi I'm Dezz :-D

[Kt]

Nah, I can talk about abortion alllllll dayyyyyyyyy.........
8:)

[Korimyr the Rat]

It stopped bothering me the instant that I learned not to get emotionally involved with it.

Your number one resource for political arguments-- something you should develop at any cost-- is an aura of smug superiority.

[alclarkey]

Dezz wrote: Serious question that I'm sure will anger a lot of people passionate about this either way, but I know that I'm tired of this issue. It occupies entirely too much of this nations attention and support. People actually support potential judges and elected officials just for this issue and that worries me.

I mean no offense by this but the middle ground is often kept quiet in this debate and I don't think it should be.

BTW - Hi I'm Dezz :-D

When you are talking about the slaughter of millions of children you better believe its one of things I choose a leader over.

[Sailor Moon]

I get tired of the ones who "decide" to disallow their true feelings about abortion play a role. After all, our sense of reason comes from our conscience..... Therefore it sickens me that the very people who believe they speak only of reason, while they clearly dont- tire me.

So, yes. I do get tired from it, but I'll never quit. I killed my baby, and I will fight this GOOD fight even if it kills me to do so.

[usuchamp]

People have the right to not voice their opinions. People also have the right to abstain from voting for people that do voice opinions. Though, repeatedly covering an issue does tend to polarize people more, which might then lead to a settlement of the issue as one side becomes more powerful.

[Sailor Moon]

Dezz, middle ground is just impossible. Life is life, killing life equals death. Where is the middle ground? I tried to find it, but the only thing I could think of was self induced miscarriages, rather than assisted abortions..
And yes these can be very safe, as well. They can be done under a doctors supervision, just like an exercise program can, just without doctors direct assistance.

[usuchamp]

I think the middle ground is between the Shakers and the brothels.

[Plodder]

yeajh im sicjk that humans tolearte the murder of millions of humas every year.

[Kt]

Sailor Moon wrote:
So, yes. I do get tired from it, but I'll never quit. I killed my baby, and I will fight this GOOD fight even if it kills me to do so.
will god EVER forgive you?
(And will you ever forgive yourself?)

[conguy]

alclarkey wrote:

When you are talking about the slaughter of millions of children you better believe its one of things I choose a leader over.

Here here.

[brendan101]

Quote: Dezz, middle ground is just impossible. Life is life, killing life equals death. Where is the middle ground?

haha. Someone is trying to get someone to join their side... achoo(spin)oooooo. Anyways on this issue, I'm pro-choice, not from a moral standpoint, but from a constitutional one. Babies dont have senses, mental or physical, until the 3rd trimester (26 weeks) therefore they are not alive or even seem to be alive until then. Abortions are illegal after then except in extreme cases where the woman may die because of the baby. It is not murder if the fetus isn't alive, and should be allowed. If the baby was made as a result of rape, a broken condom, a failed pill, or any other accident, the woman has the full right to abort the fetus. HOWEVER i do not advocate women who go around and knowingly have unprotected sex knowing full well they will have an abortion. This is irresponsible and morally reprehensible behavior. So that's my stance on the point, once you prove it to be constitutional i don't see any other way to go.

[brendan101]

ahhh and i forgot to mention, when people bring religion in to the issue they are being hypocritical. Usually the religion that questions abortion is christianity, and more people have died in its name than any other war, plague, or ABORTIONS in all of its entirety. Besides this is a political issues and the seperation of church and state staunchly forbids it, so if your reasons are merely on christian morals, you need to reevaluate your standpoint. I am christian and i believe all its teachings, but the government and my personal beliefs should not be intertwined.

[Sailor Moon]

brendan101 wrote: Quote: Dezz, middle ground is just impossible. Life is life, killing life equals death. Where is the middle ground?

haha. Someone is trying to get someone to join their side... achoo(spin)oooooo. Anyways on this issue, I'm pro-choice, not from a moral standpoint, but from a constitutional one. Babies dont have senses, mental or physical, until the 3rd trimester (26 weeks) therefore they are not alive or even seem to be alive until then. Abortions are illegal after then except in extreme cases where the woman may die because of the baby. It is not murder if the fetus isn't alive, and should be allowed. If the baby was made as a result of rape, a broken condom, a failed pill, or any other accident, the woman has the full right to abort the fetus. HOWEVER i do not advocate women who go around and knowingly have unprotected sex knowing full well they will have an abortion. This is irresponsible and morally reprehensible behavior. So that's my stance on the point, once you prove it to be constitutional i don't see any other way to go.

Men can go around and have unprotected sex, though?

Hey dont you know that about half of the women who get abortions are on the pill, and probably 30% more used a different form of birth control?

Control YOURSELF.

[Mycroft147]

Abortion should and will always remain a primary issue in America as long as it is legal and good people remain concerned about others right to life.

According to our constitution, legalized abortion is reason enough reason for some people to overthrow the government. Obviously it should not be ignored.

[galba]

alclarkey wrote: Dezz wrote: Serious question that I'm sure will anger a lot of people passionate about this either way, but I know that I'm tired of this issue. It occupies entirely too much of this nations attention and support. People actually support potential judges and elected officials just for this issue and that worries me.

I mean no offense by this but the middle ground is often kept quiet in this debate and I don't think it should be.

BTW - Hi I'm Dezz :-D

When you are talking about the slaughter of millions of children you better believe its one of things I choose a leader over.
^ What he said.

[Dezz]

Sailor Moon wrote: Dezz, middle ground is just impossible. A middle ground is never impossible, the only people that really believe that are the vocal minority that view compromise as weakness. Abortion most certainly does have a middle ground, the problem is the middle ground is very large and difficult to nail down.

For example: No abortions other then serious health risk (Doe v Bolton will need to be over turned or redefined) or rape/incest cases.

That is one example of a middle ground between the status quo and the extreme opposition. This one leans heavily towards those opposed to abortions. Another would be - Abortions only in the first 8 weeks and afterwards only for serious health risks (again Doe v Bolton definition of health risk would have to be redefined)

I know people like to say life is life, but what about freedom? Part of being free is being able to choose for yourself - Before you go off with "keep you pants on" remember that rape victims had no "choice" and neither did young children raped by their fathers/relatives. Forcing women to bare the children of their rapist is not freedom, it's cruelty. Nor do I find it reasonable to force a woman to take a pregnancy to term if her health is determined to be seriously in risk. You can't force people to die or seriously harm themselves for your set of moral beliefs....at least not in my opinion anyway.

Thus IMO there is a need for a compromise on this issue. It needs to be settled somewhere between the simple choice current situation that the nation is CLEARLY not happy with and the need to defend liberty for individuals denied their choice or faced with one of personal risk.

[The Grandmaster]

Actually yes. I came here months ago, and have spent most of my time in the abortion section. I appear to be one of the top pro-choicers to have come to this site. But now that I’ve heard it all, again and again, I believe I might be sick of it yes. It’s like my buddy Anarchist said. They never have anything new. You beat them time and time again, refute the same old stuff over and over, and for what? It all just starts over, like it never happened. A new thread will begin, and they’ll make the same claims from scratch, to which I’ll respond with variants of the same refutations. I could be spending more time on Flash, or 3D Max, or my other projects.

I think I’ve just about got what I’ve come to this site for, enough training in the issue to win every argument on the subject I’ll ever realistically have. I don’t want to let Prole go at it alone, but I’m thinking of retiring soon.

[Mycroft147]

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Actually yes. I came here months ago, and have spent most of my time in the abortion section. I appear to be one of the top pro-choicers to have come to this site. But now that I’ve heard it all, again and again, I believe I might be sick of it yes. It’s like my buddy Anarchist said. They never have anything new. You beat them time and time again, refute the same old stuff over and over, and for what? It all just starts over, like it never happened. A new thread will begin, and they’ll make the same claims from scratch, to which I’ll respond with variants of the same refutations. I could be spending more time on Flash, or 3D Max, or my other projects.

I think I’ve just about got what I’ve come to this site for, enough training in the issue to win every argument on the subject I’ll ever realistically have. I don’t want to let Prole go at it alone, but I’m thinking of retiring soon.

I havent bothered searching out any of your previous posts. Do me a favor and give me a sound logical argument that proves that abortion is not murder. Maybe you could respond in the thread i started regarding this issue.

[Sailor Moon]

Dezz wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Dezz, middle ground is just impossible. A middle ground is never impossible, the only people that really believe that are the vocal minority that view compromise as weakness. Abortion most certainly does have a middle ground, the problem is the middle ground is very large and difficult to nail down.

For example: No abortions other then serious health risk (Doe v Bolton will need to be over turned or redefined) or rape/incest cases. That is one example of a middle ground between the status quo and the extreme opposition. This one leans heavily towards those opposed to abortions. Another would be - Abortions only in the first 8 weeks and afterwards only for serious health risks (again Doe v Bolton definition of health risk would have to be redefined)

I know people like to say life is life, but what about freedom? Part of being free is being able to choose for yourself - Before you go off with "keep you pants on" remember that rape victims had no "choice" and neither did young children raped by their fathers/relatives. Forcing women to bare the children of their rapist is not freedom, it's cruelty. Nor do I find it reasonable to force a woman to take a pregnancy to term if her health is determined to be seriously in risk. You can't force people to die or seriously harm themselves for your set of moral beliefs....at least not in my opinion anyway.
Thus IMO there is a need for a compromise on this issue. It needs to be settled somewhere between the simple choice current situation that the nation is CLEARLY not happy with and the need to defend liberty for individuals denied their choice or faced with one of personal risk.

You dont think that women will be feigning psycho, and wrongfully accusing men of rape, if this was the law?

See?

Theres no common ground.

And every single time abortion happens, one person is forcing another to die, based on their own set of beliefs.

Its all or nothing.