Political Crossfire Forums

[TreizeEnder]

There is no such thing as perfection. Perfection is simply relative to something else.

So, why do we bother to do better when, in fact, we are never going to get any closer to perfection? Tell me your thoughts.

[Rozzlapeed]

TreizeEnder wrote: There is no such thing as perfection. Perfection is simply relative to something else.

So, why do we bother to do better when, in fact, we are never going to get any closer to perfection? Tell me your thoughts.

I agree that there is no such thing as perfection. But perfection, along with the idea of "doing better", are based on a person's individual perspective. And this perspective is, "I believe things should be this way, but things are not this way."

So, what is really happening is that people wake up every day hoping to observe reality in their own ideal way. And since we are all doing it, what we end up with is a compromise. But this is good, since we are all aspects of the Creator, and our individual efforts to influence reality are what keep the universe in constant change. And it is the possibility that tomorrow we will see things change in our favor that makes us get up in the morning.

When a entity observes a perfect reality, it ceases to be independent of the universe, and ceases to exist on that level. If a human were to observe a completely perfect reality, he would no longer have any desire to exist.

[TreizeEnder]

Rozzlapeed wrote: TreizeEnder wrote: There is no such thing as perfection. Perfection is simply relative to something else.

So, why do we bother to do better when, in fact, we are never going to get any closer to perfection? Tell me your thoughts.

I agree that there is no such thing as perfection. But perfection, along with the idea of "doing better", are based on a person's individual perspective. And this perspective is, "I believe things should be this way, but things are not this way."

So, what is really happening is that people wake up every day hoping to observe reality in their own ideal way. And since we are all doing it, what we end up with is a compromise. But this is good, since we are all aspects of the Creator, and our individual efforts to influence reality are what keep the universe in constant change. And it is the possibility that tomorrow we will see things change in our favor that makes us get up in the morning.

When a entity observes a perfect reality, it ceases to be independent of the universe, and ceases to exist on that level. If a human were to observe a completely perfect reality, he would no longer have any desire to exist.
This is exactly what I was afraid of. The sole motive for anything has now been acknowledged intelligently by two to be self gratification. I thought that I was the only person who recognized such a baneful trait in humanity and hoped I was just inhuman. But at the same time, can this not be corrected now that it has been acknowledged? Can we not really do something that is entirely selfless? I would every much like to think we think we could work past this hurdle, but alas. Complete selflessness would improve our societies to a level not even comparable to ours now. Even if only a handful of people could truly master this.

[Johannes]

This goes back to the old argument that no action is preformed without some form of intended self gratification. I truly enjoy serving the public. Example: Perfection, in my eyes is doing my job well, and making others happy. However, this makes me happy, and there you go.

[Korimyr the Rat]

TreizeEnder wrote: So, why do we bother to do better when, in fact, we are never going to get any closer to perfection?

Because we, as a species, are geared towards improvement. For a human being to be happy, he has to believe that he is doing something meaningful in his life.

It isn't the state of being good that matters; it is the process of becoming better that gives us meaning.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

TreizeEnder wrote:
This is exactly what I was afraid of. The sole motive for anything has now been acknowledged intelligently by two to be self gratification. I thought that I was the only person who recognized such a baneful trait in humanity and hoped I was just inhuman. But at the same time, can this not be corrected now that it has been acknowledged? Can we not really do something that is entirely selfless? I would every much like to think we think we could work past this hurdle, but alas. Complete selflessness would improve our societies to a level not even comparable to ours now. Even if only a handful of people could truly master this.

And just how do you propose that humanity change a trait from self preservation to selflessness? I'm dying to know.

It sounds as though you expect people to be back stabbing 'me first' scourges of society - when all people want to do - is try and be the best human being they can be.

If you somehow are under the impression that all people do is only for self-gratification - then I must ask you -

Why do you do things to 'better' yourself? Are you a person that is truly selfless - and if not - why not?

I just have to laugh every time I read someone who says that humans are selfish and what's the point in that? The indignation that we should all be selfless human beings and how 'could' we!? How utterly *horrible* and *despicable* that we humans would want to try and improve ourselves and in turn, try to do something good for others.

The reason I laugh, is because we are human. As soon as you give all of your - heart, body, soul, material possessions, all your educational knowledge free of charge (formal and otherwise) to people who could better use those things ... then you come back here and tell us all how we could be less selfish.

If it were not for selfishness - people would not seek higher education, now would they? People with Ph.D's for example. Why in the world would someone do that? :think: Is it to help people or is it truly because of some other reason? Could it be that they are just as selfish? Hmm. I wonder.

Oh surely.. it's not because they want $$ for themselves.. or that they want something good for themselves... right? Oh no. It must because they are doing it for totally selfless reasons, right? Or is it truly selfishness.. because after all, why would someone spend that much time, trying to educate themselves if it weren't to solely benefit themselves?

Are you willing to do the selfless walk to go along with your selfless talk... or are you just pretending that you, along with all other humans.. are selfless just as much as the next person.

Some people go to university to get a higher education. They either pay for this higher education by their own back breaking work (or student loans), or they are recipients of scholarships.. OR they are given grants.. money that they never have to pay back. Then they move ahead and go for even MORE education.. why would a person even bother --- IF they were TRULY selfLESS?

Maybe this is something that you should scrutinize a little closer before you proclaim your disdain with all humans for trying to better themselves. I would say that there are reasons for the things people do to try and get ahead and better themselves.. and while some of the reasons MAY BE selfISH - I would say that selfishness is not the ONLY reason why a person would strive to be the best they can be.

I only know of a handful of people who openly strive for 'perfection'. What is perfect to one, is not perfect to another. We each have the ability to decide for ourselves what is an ideal as far as human behavior is concerned. I happen to be of the opinion that not all people who do good things are truly good and that not all people who sometimes do bad things.. are not bad people.

I don't believe that people who simply state that they are selfless, truly are.

[TreizeEnder]

Quote: And just how do you propose that humanity change a trait from self preservation to selflessness? I'm dying to know.
I am human. I do things ultimately because they benefit me. I am nice to people and in return I am respected, praised, and given material rewards on occasion. How can I come up with a solution to change selfishness into selflessness when I am human? I have yet to figure it out. That is why I asked and did not propose it myself.

Quote: It sounds as though you expect people to be back stabbing 'me first' scourges of society - when all people want to do - is try and be the best human being they can be.
Best is relative. There is no true "best". Only two ways of development; alone and together. To be selfless is to work for the benefit of others alone. Not all the time, mind you. My question is whether or not we are truly capable of ever being selfless; even once.

Quote: If you somehow are under the impression that all people do is only for self-gratification - then I must ask you -

Why do you do things to 'better' yourself? Are you a person that is truly selfless - and if not - why not?

As I said before, I am human. I do things ultimately because they benefit me. I am nice to people and in return I am respected, praised, and given material rewards on occasion. I gain more influence when I do good things for other people. I gain power over more people. I become the brain and they the organs.

Quote: I just have to laugh every time I read someone who says that humans are selfish and what's the point in that? The indignation that we should all be selfless human beings and how 'could' we!? How utterly *horrible* and *despicable* that we humans would want to try and improve ourselves and in turn, try to do something good for others.

The reason I laugh, is because we are human. As soon as you give all of your - heart, body, soul, material possessions, all your educational knowledge free of charge (formal and otherwise) to people who could better use those things ... then you come back here and tell us all how we could be less selfish.
We are seemingly less selfish to gain more respect and influence over others. We win them over by such acts as sharing and defending someone else. These actions are equally motivated by self gratification, if you ask me (I do this as well and hate it).

Quote: If it were not for selfishness - people would not seek higher education, now would they? People with Ph.D's for example. Why in the world would someone do that? :think: Is it to help people or is it truly because of some other reason? Could it be that they are just as selfish? Hmm. I wonder.
We do not always "seek" higher education. It can be learned without looking for it as displayed many times in the past.

Quote: Oh surely.. it's not because they want $$ for themselves.. or that they want something good for themselves... right? Oh no. It must because they are doing it for totally selfless reasons, right? Or is it truly selfishness.. because after all, why would someone spend that much time, trying to educate themselves if it weren't to solely benefit themselves?
You have none of my disagreement here.

Quote: Are you willing to do the selfless walk to go along with your selfless talk... or are you just pretending that you, along with all other humans.. are selfless just as much as the next person.
I never said that I was selfless. In fact, I am far from it; I am the must greed stricken being you will meet. I am simply smart enough to know that sacrificing my self in some places will gain me great influence and power in others. My means to an end are much less barbaric than many that precede me. I know that to win over masses, you must make sacrifice. At the same time, I hate the fact that all the good I have ever done for anyone has solely occurred because of my lust for great influence and influence=power. I want to correct this, but I see no way out. I was simply asking for ideas. You needn't be condescending to convey yourself, my friend.

Quote: I only know of a handful of people who openly strive for 'perfection'. What is perfect to one, is not perfect to another. We each have the ability to decide for ourselves what is an ideal as far as human behavior is concerned. I happen to be of the opinion that not all people who do good things are truly good and that not all people who sometimes do bad things.. are not bad people.
I am not looking for perfection. It does not truly exist. There is no terminal perfection. I simply wonder if selflessness is attainable? That is all I ever said and nothing more, GirlNextDoor.

Quote: I don't believe that people who simply state that they are selfless, truly are.
Again, you will hear no disagreement from me on this.

[Korimyr the Rat]

It's important to note that when most people discuss "human nature", they're really discussing a product of human nature. It is not human nature to be backstabbing or selfish, any more than it is human nature to be cooperative and honorable.

It is human nature to be ambitious and to do what they perceive is necessary to "succeed" in society. If you want to improve "human nature", change the rules so that, in order to be successful, human beings must exhibit the traits you find desireable.

[bubbleyumm]

society has created a perfect. the media, your peers, your family.
to us, perfect is having a lot of money, big house, lots of cars, and the "perfect" look which is naturally thin with curves and smooth skin and big breasts for females, and muscular for the guys. personally, the media has created most of it and has destroyed many lives, and influenced more. But who really cares? screw the "perfectness" that society has created, and make your own. perfect is you. nothing else.

[Robingoblin]

If I may at this point utter a few words of psychobabble, that no matter how cliched is nonetheless a great truth? ....You cannot love others unless you love yourself. If you do not understand happiness then you cannot make others happy.
Having said that, without "selfishness" I cannot conceive of what is good and bad, I cannot hold an opinion on what I would like to see prevail.
Furthermore, if I believe I am a finite being, then life is too short to not want to know happiness. Contrariwise, if I believe I am an infinite being, then life is too long to not wish to spend at least some of it in happiness.
If we do not understand happiness then we have nothing to desire - we would not even desire to be selfless. A lackluster existence wouldn't you say? - The same principle of not having a right without a wrong. Every concept needs a polar opposite I think, both are valid and necessary. Appreciate the beautiful balances of existence.

[HomoUniversalis]

Yet, merely because perfection in a real sense does not exist, does not mean it has no existence. It clearly exists within a word, and exercises a certain degree of power over people's minds. Some chase after perfection as children after a rainbow, while some of age cynically shout that there is no such treasure there.

For me, my life is perfect, and so too I am perfect, because I adhere to the ambitions and ideals that I have set for myself. Verily, the meaning of perfection might apply differently in different settings, and I would be the last to suggest some 'essence' that is inherent to the word and shared in all definitions and interpretions in the real world, but still, I think that the question "is your life perfect?" has the ability to pose folk with the question on what is wrong with their lives, and why, and in follow up questions, how they might perhaps change it.

bubbleyumm wrote: But who really cares?

The ever-so narrow-minded local follower of Christianity who will do anything to get you to fit in his set of mind.

Mr U

[social]

TreizeEnder wrote: There is no such thing as perfection. Perfection is simply relative to something else.

So, why do we bother to do better when, in fact, we are never going to get any closer to perfection? Tell me your thoughts.

Well in relative terms we can get closer to perfection, though never actually achieve it. This is so because 'perfection is relative to something else', and persumably the closer we got to that something esle, the closer we get to perfection.