Political Crossfire Forums

[wormwood]

Quote: first of all ... you are wlecome but there is no need to thank me... and actually I enjoy talking about religions and i consider it my responsibility to answer the questions and discuss non-muslims about Islam I enjoy talking about religion too, but I understand it is easy for people to get frustrated when their beliefs are questioned. I believe the only way to understand something is to question every aspect of it.

Quote: we all agree that a woman must cover her body and hair... I disagree with them on the issue of including the face in that cover... Excuse my ignorance, but why cover the hair? There are a group of Christians that believe this too...also no makeup.

Quote: I see how some might see this as objectifying women..but if you understand why Islam has set such an obligation, you will not see it that way I understand the regulation is supposed to protect them...that IS what I think is sexist about it. Protection should be optional.

Quote: about the reason why they need the protection more than men... well I think you said that in your first post.... they are as you said the most beautiful creatures on earth...they are covetted and wanted by men and hence they need the protection Since it is the MALE urges that are the problem, why not stress more self control in men?

Quote: in Saudi Arabia for example, the number of rape cases can not even match the number of rape cases in one state here in America... I have great respect for the science of psychology but that does not mean psychologist can not be wrong... it could be a matter of control... everything we do as human is a matter of control... if you control your diet , you will not get fat, but it would be hard to stop you from eating the worst unhealthy thing if you have been very hungry... Still it is a matter of control...you believe in outer control, and I believe in inner control. I think you might be confusing the sexuality and the corporate culture of the West because they are so intertwined. The reasons we are experiencing social decay are many, but primarily I attribute it to the popular mindset of selfishness...our business ethics of dog eat dog have seeped into our everyday lives...on top of this decadence makes us extremely apathetic to anything not directly effecting us. Like I said, there have been many cultures that don't wear ANY clothes and they got along fine...look at nudist colonies...how many rapes take place there?

Quote: lemme ask you a question, if a girl comes to your class wearing a tight tank top that reveals her chest and a short skirt, what would you say about her? you would say that she is trying to get some attention, maybe think of her body or her manners The only people I know that would judge someone for this are certain Christians...for most people that is considered the norm for a young woman...over a certain age and I will be complaining right beside you :lol:

Quote: in general, you would make assumptions about her regardless if those assumptions are right or not... but if her body is covered and you can't say any part of her body that you as a man appreciate...you would not be able to make any assumptions about her or her purposes
Like I said, I would not draw any assumptions from this aside from her level of attractiveness. I will say that sometimes beautiful women don't have the best personalities because they get by on their looks...if they couldn't do so, they would be forced to develop a personality. BUT, have you ever had the pleasure of being with a beautiful woman who is full of confidence? Simple things like a smile can make it feel like your chest is caving in (in a good way :lol: )

Quote: please bear in mind that when i talked about "your fake freedom".. I was not talking about your own perspective of what freedom means... I meant the idea of freedom in the west in general..like in France and what happened there for example... why is it so hard to believe that this muslim woman has exploited her right as a free woman to obey the obligations of her religions I agree that France needs to pike off...they should not interfere with someone peacefully participating in their religion.

Quote: I mean I see many muslim girls in America ,who if they want can stop covering their bodies and heads, but they do cover their bodies and heads and follow the teachings of Islam. they are not forced to wear them... they choose to. I see these girls too, though I have never seen one with her face covered in America. I have to say as a side note to the Muslims debating here...I have found that some girls are still very beautiful all covered up with the face exposed... if you are going to cover up for the reason that you do...I hate to say it, but it makes more sense to cover the face...sorry Moath :lol:

Quote: your choices are your own...right or wrong... but lemme give you an example... if we are sitting around a fire ... you have the freedom to burn yourself.. but wouldn't it be better for you if I told you that putting your hand in the fire could get your hand pretty burned up and you could die or get hurt by doing so? I mean the choice would still be yours and the decision is also yours to make and me telling you what I think is right or what i think is dangerous does not take your fredom away from you I agree, as long as you do not chain me down to protect me from myself. If it is a choice, then I say warn everyone you can not to burn themselves, but do not make the choice for them...if they want to be burned, let them.

Quote: you see what I'm trying to get to here?

peace I think so, as long as people have a choice then there is NO problem with this practice in my opinion.

[wormwood]

Quote: You really think that there is no problems if people of all ages drink alcohol? Wow, even grown ups have tons of problems from alcohol and you are saying its ok if children drink alcohol??
Are you like completely unaware of the side effects of drinking alcohol? What I meant was look at the societal problems involved with alcohol. People in America have higher instances of drunk driving and medical problems associated with drinking than people in countries that don't discourage alcohol. Because of the repression there is less moderation because correct behavior can not be discussed when the topic is COMPLETELY bad. Does that make any sense?

Quote: 1- It is ok in your opinion to show their breasts and wear just a thong in public What I said was that it was sexist that women can not have bare chests in public but men can. As for the thong, on the beach that is fine, but if you are talking about just walking down the street I am sure she would get funny looks.

Quote: 2- You see no apparent side effect of that No. Self control is all that is required. If you saw the same woman, would your mind be irreparably damaged, or would you simply put what you saw into context and go about your life as you would have?

Quote: So I understand that you are anti censorship?? Children should watch sexual or nude movies and that is A-Okay and in fact it will benefetial for them? Amazing. Amazing...but true! In fact, I grew up with satellite and I saw people getting massacred and naked people ALL the time...the only difference between you and I in this instance is that you are still shocked by this stuff, and I am not. I do not go out and rape, and I am not a sexist (at least I try not to be), I am responsible for my own behavior; it is not the images I see, but how I process these images.

Quote: Sorry but I think you are wrong. You would be very naive to think that children are not influenced by what they see and hear. Children nowadays are completely influenced by TV That is because there is no one to put what they see into any sort of intelligent context, nor is there anyone to teach them to think critically. Good people do not turn bad by seeing bad things, people with no direction or guidance turn bad by seeing something bad.

Quote: You think that its okay for your children to see such things and these things wont have the slightest effect on their morality, well That is wrong, you see, when your little girls will see all these women dressing in almost nothing they would want to do like them cause that would be the norm. They would grow up knowing that their body attract the eyes of men and they will use their bodies to get what they want, whether it is a boy friend or faster promotion at work (if shes prettier than the others) in the end it will be highly unlikely that the girls will find "prince charming" in such an enviroment where beauty is everything and a women will be automaticaly judged by her appearance. This will be a very immoral enviroment, a women would be automaticaly viewed as a sex object even if she doesnt want to, cause in the minds of men they will view her as a w****, you cant change that concept it would be always there, men would always view a half naked women as a w**** and many men wouldnt want to settle down with such a women, I mean why do so when he can always find a cuter girl? Why settle down in the first place? why have babies?
Your little boys will also be sexiest, whether they want to or not, they will view women as creatures that are only there to satisfy their needs, I mean what do you expect them to think of? Cause whenever they see a half naked women, or a women dressed in nothing but a bikini walking down the street they will be turned on. And just how will they satisfy their needs? I mean love wont do it, it must be sex, so they wont search for love and a women to settle down with but they will search about easy and quick action: Sex. In such an environment dont expect men to take care of their wives or to be loyal to them. Well I have already proved how this is false, because I have grown up in the exact described situation and I am not the way you say. Also, my younger brother has a daughter that he loves more than anything and his whole life revolves around that little girl (AND her mother...his wife). What you say is just based off of social biases, and is not the reality of the situation. Just as the media shows Muslims in a bad light, they show the worst of everything, so I think your theories sound like media-hype speculation. It is popular in America to blame all of your shortcomings on T.V. or McDonald's or video games, or anything other than yourself. Taking responsibility is not our strong suit right now, but just because it is popular to dodge any and all blame in Western culture, does not make it correct. If you are fat, it is because you eat too much, or exercise too little or both...if you kill your parents, it wasn't the rock music, it was you being mentally unbalanced enough to kill your own parents. I believe every person is responsible for their own behavior.

Quote: A husband who is constantly bombarded by half naked girls in the media and in the streets wont be satisfied as before with his average looking wife, thats a sure thing, maybe he wont even be very much happy about his all life which includes kids and a wife and responsibilities. Maybe he will feel like he is wasting his life by being a husband and maybe he should "live it" by just doing whatever he wants when he wants and no holding back, what would the result of that be on the wife and on the children? People all over America see sex on T.V. constantly, still divorce is a minority of all marriage. Every person is still responsible for themselves. Also, what if two people simply do not love each other anymore? Should they stay married?

[pharaoh]

Quote: What I meant was look at the societal problems involved with alcohol. People in America have higher instances of drunk driving and medical problems associated with drinking than people in countries that don't discourage alcohol

Then banning alcohol is infact a good idea because it SAVES LIVES. You said it yourself but ofcourse for some strange reason you wont agree on that.

Quote: What I said was that it was sexist that women can not have bare chests in public but men can.

Well maybe because women are not as visual as men (phleeeaze dont try to disbute that), we can get turned on immediately if we see women's breasts but it wont have the same effect on women if they saw a man's chest. And since men are stronger than women, there is a BIG chance that men walking down the street may go crazy and just start raping the naked women (apart from a thong) around them. Cause guess what, not all men have GFs, not all men have pretty GFs, not all men feel they can score with a pretty girl, so if you arouse these men (who constitues a huge part in the society there would be an extremly high rate of rape (could be followed ofcourse by murder) and we are not even talking about cheating and infidelity. So you can talk from now til dawn about total freedom and women should do whatever what they want to do but in the end that would only lead to the destruction of the society from its very foundation...family

Quote: As for the thong, on the beach that is fine, but if you are talking about just walking down the street I am sure she would get funny looks.



Why would she get funny looks?

Quote: No. Self control is all that is required. If you saw the same woman, would your mind be irreparably damaged, or would you simply put what you saw into context and go about your life as you would have?



It would most certainly affect you, you dont want to acknowledge that but its true. C'mon, most teens who lived in the 60s can tell you that they had a huge crush on Marlyn Monroe, teens who lived in the 80s would say Bo Derek, teens who lived in the 90s (like me) would tell me Pamela Anderson. Now whats wrong about that? I'll tell you whats wrong, it could lead to some bad things for teens, a teenager boy may have sex with a teenager girl and she could get pregnant, and ofcourse and that age she would be very unprepared for the burden of raising a baby and ofcourse the teenager boy would dissapear ( he want to have more freedom and sex, he doesnt want to get married) and in the end the child wont have a father. The importance of love will decrease, people want to have sex not fall in love so in the end those teenagers would suddenly realize that they are 40 years old and they dont have a family and suddenly they would want to raise a family and have kids but unfortunately that would hard to do so at that age and on the other hand they still wont be searching for love but someone to get married and have kids with, unfortunately that wont lead to happiness cause love is missing.
I could go on and on about this but unfortunatly I dont have the time.

Quote: Amazing...but true! In fact, I grew up with satellite and I saw people getting massacred and naked people ALL the time...the only difference between you and I in this instance is that you are still shocked by this stuff, and I am not. I do not go out and rape, and I am not a sexist (at least I try not to be), I am responsible for my own behavior; it is not the images I see, but how I process these images.



1- I was a teenager too you know and I dont have a long beard and Im not living in a cage.
2-Maybe YOU didnt become a rapist or a sexist but others will, because alot of people may be influenced by an unstopable bombarment of sex and nude girls. They may feel less happy about their marriage which may lead to infidelity. Or if they are losers they may go have some sex with prostitues which is also not a good thing and it wont really solve their problems, or some of them (even a very few) may just rape a girl whenever there exists an opportunity, they dont have to force her into doing it with violence, they could rape a girl after a night at the club or a bar, you know how these things work...etc...

Quote: That is because there is no one to put what they see into any sort of intelligent context, nor is there anyone to teach them to think critically. Good people do not turn bad by seeing bad things, people with no direction or guidance turn bad by seeing something bad.



Oh man what are you talking about? Dont you know how much children are badly influenced when they see their parents fighting or having sex etc..? They wont turn to bad people but this stuff really destroys their life in most cases. That is a bad thing and I think even most westeners agree that nudity and violence is NOT ok for a child to see.

I will reply to the rest of your post later on