Political Crossfire Forums

jeechoscopy · Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 11:49 am Post subject:

pharaoh wrote: Quote: This concept of a woman having to cover herself is hard for me to understand. Is there regulation on the men being covered?

Yes there is. Men should cover from their knees to their chest (til the neck). In other words they can show or expose their arms and their legs (until the knee).

Quote: In my opinion, women are the most beautiful creatures in all of creation

We can all agree on that otherwise we would be gay...and I dont think we are..so....

Quote: to keep them covered seems like such a waste.

Such a waste? What do you want them to do? Show off like Pamela anderson?? Participate in Miss world contests?? What is considerate as appropriate to you and what is the good thing in that? (for the community)

Quote: If a woman WANTS to cover herself to avoid unwanted attention, that is one thing, but to force all women to do so, seems unfair and completely biased.

Women shouldnt be forced to put the veil. That should be their choice. Ofcourse otherwise would be completely wrong and let me tell you that there is not 1 single verse in Koran that orders men to force women to put the veil.

Well replied!!

Actually, when someone asks a question about the religious teaching on a particular topic, reply is also based on the religious one. I know other religions also seem to struggle to save women’s site as max as it is possible. Each religion has tried its best to protect women socially, economically and psychologically.
I think Islam is the best protector with a broad spectrum. No religion has tried to keep women naked. As men try their best to be in men’s hijab women also do it without any force, accordingly.

Oh yes there is a 'religion' that want women naked and it is "Fashion."

What about fashion Brothers?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

wormwood, I was kidding with pharaoh. :wink:

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Yes there is. Men should cover from their knees to their chest (til the neck). In other words they can show or expose their arms and their legs (until the knee). This I can understand...men are gross looking... :lol: .

Quote: We can all agree on that otherwise we would be gay...and I dont think we are..so.... I didn't ask for your sass mouth mister :lol:

Quote: Such a waste? What do you want them to do? Show off like Pamela anderson?? Participate in Miss world contests?? What is considerate as appropriate to you and what is the good thing in that? (for the community) Appropriate is whatever the woman WANTS to wear...it is not for me to dictate womens fashion as I am a man. And what do you mean by "show off"? The human body is not dirty or bad...it is just our body. More than half of the people on earth have a womans body...it is not wrong to look at, in fact it is human nature. The five senses tell us much important information when choosing a mate... for example, if someone's natural smell is pleasing to you, then most likely your immune systems are compatible (i.e. she is immune to things you are not and vice versa). The same is true with everything else...all of our natural drives have a purpose. For me to cover a woman to fight MY drives seems unfair and like I am trying to fight nature. As for your question about the good of the community, I am not sure how to respond to this...are you trying to insinuate that there is a connection to clothing and morality? If so you are stating that the same woman who is good under all that clothing, would be a bad person if she were scantily dressed...so it isn't the woman that is good or bad, it is her clothing?

Quote: Women shouldnt be forced to put the veil. That should be their choice. Ofcourse otherwise would be completely wrong and let me tell you that there is not 1 single verse in Koran that orders men to force women to put the veil. Well I would hope that there isn't one single verse that orders men to force women do ANYTHING. That would be barbaric.

Quote: Actually, when someone asks a question about the religious teaching on a particular topic, reply is also based on the religious one. I know other religions also seem to struggle to save women’s site as max as it is possible. Each religion has tried its best to protect women socially, economically and psychologically. This is the same reason so many religions seem sexist too. Why do women need special protection?

Quote: I think Islam is the best protector with a broad spectrum. No religion has tried to keep women naked. As men try their best to be in men’s hijab women also do it without any force, accordingly. So there are no social repercussions for a woman refusing to wear this thing? No stoning, or dirty looks or anything?

Quote: Oh yes there is a 'religion' that want women naked and it is "Fashion." Technically for it to be considered "fashion" there has to be some clothing involved...and in that instance, it is the women that want to appear (mostly) naked. To say one is better than the other seems like a fallacy in my opinion. It is just a body...made of flesh and bone...nothing more and nothing less.

Quote: wormwood, I was kidding with pharaoh.

Obvi dog...and I was kidding with you...you are uptight around other Muslims Moath :lol:
You better funny up fella, or I will tell all of your little Muslim friends about your love of Pat Robertson 8:)

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

wormwood wrote: Well I would hope that there isn't one single verse that orders men to force women do ANYTHING. That would be barbaric.

None at all, wormwood. None at all. :wink:

wormwood wrote: So there are no social repercussions for a woman refusing to wear this thing? No stoning, or dirty looks or anything?

Maybe a few dirty looks, but otherwise nothing I guess... unless you're in Saudi Arabia or Iran.

wormwood wrote: Obvi dog...and I was kidding with you...you are uptight around other Muslims Moath
You better funny up fella, or I will tell all of your little Muslim friends about your love of Pat Robertson

Hahaha. If I was in love with Pat Robertson, you would be all over Bin Laden. 8:)

By the way, pharaoh, wormwood is a good guy. He's not anti-Islamic. He just questions the things he finds different and strange. But no worries, eh wormwood, buddy? :wink:

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Maybe a few dirty looks, but otherwise nothing I guess... unless you're in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Ah so it is like, having a child outside of marriage or inter-racial dating used to be in the U.S. about 10-15 years ago..no real social consequences, just most people will silently disapprove. What is up with S.A. or Iran?

Quote: Hahaha. If I was in love with Pat Robertson, you would be all over Bin Laden. You know B.L. is my hero :lol:

Quote: But no worries, eh wormwood, buddy? None at all. I expect people will be angry with me at first...questioning religious beliefs is tricky...but I try to do it with respect for you guys, to help me understand my world better, and not make unneeded enemies in the process. All I ask is just that you guys be patient with me so I can understand your way of life from my own distorted perspective. 8:)

jeechoscopy · Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:37 pm Post subject:

Saracen, if he really tries to understand you, you are quite honest in replying him...

Bravo :clap:

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

wormwood wrote: Ah so it is like, having a child outside of marriage or inter-racial dating used to be in the U.S. about 10-15 years ago..no real social consequences, just most people will silently disapprove. What is up with S.A. or Iran?

They need a lot of reformation.. Both are repressed by extremist governments that treat women as second-class citizens and take away a lot but not most of their rights.

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: They need a lot of reformation.. Both are repressed by extremist governments that treat women as second-class citizens and take away a lot but not most of their rights. Some sects of Christianity are that way too. What do those countries have to gain by suppressing half of the population? Are we not ALL God's children?

It sickens me when people use their religion, what ever religion, to harm or suppress people. To me this goes against the very nature of religion.

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:12 am Post subject:

Wormwood,

Okay what I understand from your posts so far is that you are a liberal man. You believe in liberty, a man should do what he wants and the women too should do what she wants. No barbaric restrictions no hold back no nothing. Ofcourse I dont mean that to be taken to the extrem, but im just talking in general that liberty should be respected.

That is all good...really good...on paper or in theory that is.
Yes it has been a man's world since the dawn of history, yes woemen were discriminated and treated as a property, yes I do believe that that is wrong. But how could we repair the damage? Is it by going all the way to freedom? I think you believe so, well then I hope that we can debate about that in the coming posts cause I, on the other hand, believe that total freedom= total chaos...okay lets take this one at a time:

Quote: Appropriate is whatever the woman WANTS to wear

Okay...lets take what you say and apply it. What if one day you wake up in the morning and dress up to take your whole family (lets say 3 boys and 2 girls) to the zoo (whatever), you open your apartment door and you get the shock of your life, you see a dozen or more girls wearing nothing but high heels and a thong. Now shut up! You cant say thats wrong remember? Cause it wont be appropriate to diss women's fashion. Now what do you think the effect of this daily scenario on your 2 sweet hearts and your 3 adolescent boys? Plz give it a real thought before answering.

Quote: it is not for me to dictate womens fashion as I am a man

Excuse me but thats a very naive comment. Do you think that women fashion is controlled by women?! Think again. It is well known that men control all the media and advertisement which ofcourse involve half naked girls as a way to attract the male viewer and possible buyer of their product. Men control all the miss world, miss bikini, playboy, sex entertainment...everything! Men exploit women's body to get more cash and although women are considered as equal to men according to all of the west's constitutions they are being exploited by men in most jobs. Men use women to get more money, women disgrace themselves by using their body as means to get money but maybe they dont have a real choice cause thats the situation in the real world and you can forget about all the feminist movements cause they cant do a thing cause most women have already adapted to this situation and they really dont wanna change it even though its against them. What a pitty?
I will talk more about the obvious discrimination of women in the west later...

Quote: And what do you mean by "show off"?

What do I mean by show off??? What do you think I mean? Havent you seen baywatch? Havent you read (actually seen) Play boy mags..etc..?? Should every beautiful women expose her body to the whole world just because she thinks the world should know how beautiful and sexy she is, and in the same time get some cash??
Do you consider that as "appropriate"?

Quote: The human body is not dirty or bad...it is just our body.

Who said the human body is dirty or bad?? You are not debating with a cave man budy :lol:
The human body is indeed beautiful but if exposed to strangers it can really cause problems. I mean women dressed only in thongs or G strings isnt a bad thing at all for a man and for a women (just in a selfish way), a man get to see hot women and that makes him excited and something is telling me that just 1 wife wont satisfy his needs, so most probably he would "jump on" if he finds an opportunity (and ofcourse he would cause Im sure he wont find much resistance from women dressed in thongs). This kinda environment could be considered as heaven for some men but in reality it will just destroy the community, men will be less faithful to their wives------>> leads to distabilized homes---->>> Children wont be properly raised cause their mom and dad are fighting all the time----->>> ALOT of natural children due to increased infidelity----->>> Children dont know who is their father----->>> Children have serious emotional problems---->>> When the children grow up they wont be improving their community or their nation cause, yup you guessed it, they would be doing exactly the same thing as what their parents did: Broken homes...infidelity here and there---->>> Complete sadness.
As I were saying...total freedom= total chaos.

Okay I need a break...we will continue later...

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

What if a woman refuses to wear any covering and dress like a western girl. Would that be seen as very wrong in the eyes of the Muslim faith?

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:52 am Post subject:

Darth Tiberius wrote: What if a woman refuses to wear any covering and dress like a western girl. Would that be seen as very wrong in the eyes of the Muslim faith?

What do you exactly mean? If a women dont wear a hijab then thats not a good thing but it doesnt mean that this girl/women is a bad person, shes just doing a bad thing. Ofcourse muslims are like everybody so they differ, some people will not think she is doing anything wrong and some will think that its a bit wrong and others ofcourse will consider her a w**** for not wearing a hijab. You know what im saying? Just like everybody.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

pharaoh wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: What if a woman refuses to wear any covering and dress like a western girl. Would that be seen as very wrong in the eyes of the Muslim faith?

What do you exactly mean? If a women dont wear a hijab then thats not a good thing but it doesnt mean that this girl/women is a bad person, shes just doing a bad thing. Ofcourse muslims are like everybody so they differ, some people will not think she is doing anything wrong and some will think that its a bit wrong and others ofcourse will consider her a w**** for not wearing a hijab. You know what im saying? Just like everybody.

I understand. Would she doing a serious offesne though and do most Muslims believe she is doing wrong? Why don't men do that as well?

pharaoh · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:55 am Post subject:

Darth Tiberius wrote: pharaoh wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: What if a woman refuses to wear any covering and dress like a western girl. Would that be seen as very wrong in the eyes of the Muslim faith?

What do you exactly mean? If a women dont wear a hijab then thats not a good thing but it doesnt mean that this girl/women is a bad person, shes just doing a bad thing. Ofcourse muslims are like everybody so they differ, some people will not think she is doing anything wrong and some will think that its a bit wrong and others ofcourse will consider her a w**** for not wearing a hijab. You know what im saying? Just like everybody.

I understand. Would she doing a serious offesne though and do most Muslims believe she is doing wrong? Why don't men do that as well?

Most muslims do think that not wearing a hijab is wrong simply because it is written in the Koran that women should wear a hijab.
Wearing a hijab is for the good interest of women, I feel like im trying to defend an abusive behavior, well it is not, hijab gives women respect and dignity. A women wearing a hijab is like saying:" I want you to respect me, I want you to look at me for what I am not for my looks."
If you didnt please read my response to wormwood for more explanation

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Okay what I understand from your posts so far is that you are a liberal man. You believe in liberty, a man should do what he wants and the women too should do what she wants. No barbaric restrictions no hold back no nothing. Ofcourse I dont mean that to be taken to the extrem, but im just talking in general that liberty should be respected. I don't know that I would call myself "liberal" in the American sense of the word, but this seems a fair assessment so far.

Quote: Yes it has been a man's world since the dawn of history, yes woemen were discriminated and treated as a property, yes I do believe that that is wrong. I think this is a topic for another thread...I wonder why things started this way?

Quote: But how could we repair the damage? Is it by going all the way to freedom? I think you believe so, well then I hope that we can debate about that in the coming posts cause I, on the other hand, believe that total freedom= total chaos...okay lets take this one at a time: I on the other hand feel that total freedom only equals total chaos in the face of repression. For example, in some cultures people of all ages are allowed to drink alcohol and they have no problems... in the U.S. alcohol use is repressed, so it turns into a host of social problems, especially for the people too young to drink.

Quote: Okay...lets take what you say and apply it. What if one day you wake up in the morning and dress up to take your whole family (lets say 3 boys and 2 girls) to the zoo (whatever), you open your apartment door and you get the shock of your life, you see a dozen or more girls wearing nothing but high heels and a thong. Now shut up! You cant say thats wrong remember? Cause it wont be appropriate to diss women's fashion. It is illegal for women to show their breast in public in the U.S. (which is sexist in my opinion)..but say they were wearing thongs and a top...I would have no problem with this...and if I did, I could move to an area where people were more sheltered and prudish like I was.

Quote: Now what do you think the effect of this daily scenario on your 2 sweet hearts and your 3 adolescent boys? Plz give it a real thought before answering. The effect would be, the children would grow up knowing what a human female's body looks like, so they would not view it is dirty or out of place. There are many cultures which did/do not use cloths, and they didn't all turn into rapists and sociopaths. It is your value of right and wrong which makes it seem as if a problem will arise, and not and inherent "right" or "wrong" of reality.

Quote: Now what do you think the effect of this daily scenario on your 2 sweet hearts and your 3 adolescent boys? Plz give it a real thought before answering. I imagine they would become desensitized like I have. You want me to draw a correlation between clothing and morality, but I just don't see it. I am not saying every woman should dress as skimpy as possible, but I am saying they should have the right to do so if they so choose. It seems like you want me to say that my boys would become sexists and my girls would become w***s, but this is completely illogical. The only way children turn out bad, is because their parents let them, it is not societies fault.

Quote: Excuse me but thats a very naive comment. Do you think that women fashion is controlled by women?! Think again. In the free world, yes women do dictate their own fashion. Maybe men control advertising and media outlets, but it is still up to the women to buy and support these things..no one is forced to do anything. It has been my experience that women LIKE to be pretty, so I don't really see how men are forcing cloths or styles onto them.

Quote: Men control all the miss world, miss bikini, playboy, sex entertainment...everything! And? Women do these things of their own free will. Also, there are woman owned magazines and strip clubs...hell a woman is the publisher for playboy! Your argument seems too old world to work in modern society.

Quote: Men exploit women's body to get more cash and although women are considered as equal to men according to all of the west's constitutions they are being exploited by men in most jobs. You see it that way, I see it as women exploiting men's desires to get themselves rich doing basically no work. No one is forced to strip...they do it because they make $3,000 a week, and all they have to do is stand there naked while the MEN debase themselves.

Quote: women disgrace themselves by using their body as means to get money but maybe they dont have a real choice cause thats the situation in the real world and you can forget about all the feminist movements cause they cant do a thing cause most women have already adapted to this situation and they really dont wanna change it even though its against them. What a pitty? This is a sexist cop out. Everyone has a choice, I don't believe in this diffusion of responsibility that says that MY problems are everyone else's fault..it is a load of crap in my opinion. And before you go speaking for all women, you should realize that most (in the U.S. anyway) don't want change, not because they are used to it, but because they know they are getting the better deal. If i could make $3,000 a week to stand around naked, I would do it in a heart beat, but alas, women are not so foolish as men.

Quote: I will talk more about the obvious discrimination of women in the west later... Please do. Have you ever even been to the West before, because it sounds like you have not.

Quote: What do I mean by show off??? What do you think I mean? Havent you seen baywatch? Havent you read (actually seen) Play boy mags..etc..?? Should every beautiful women expose her body to the whole world just because she thinks the world should know how beautiful and sexy she is, and in the same time get some cash??
There is no nudity in Baywatch, I am not sure what you are getting at here. As for the rest, I say if a woman wants to express how sexy she is, then who am I to stop her? It is not my place to ensure that the rest of the world is moral...only myself.

Quote: Do you consider that as "appropriate"? Yes. It is appropriate because no one forces me to watch T.V. or read playboy. If I don't want to see that stuff, freedom means being free not to see it...all I have to do is look away, or change the channel. To try to limit everyone else's freedom because I am insecure about my own behavior is foolish.

Quote: a man get to see hot women and that makes him excited and something is telling me that just 1 wife wont satisfy his needs, so most probably he would "jump on" if he finds an opportunity (and ofcourse he would cause Im sure he wont find much resistance from women dressed in thongs). I wish you could see how these are opinions that reflect your culture biases. For example; why do you think one woman is not enough for this guy? Why do you assume he will cheat? Because in your mind you think these people are guilty of something, but in truth a person is responsible for their own morality and no amount of societal factors should be able to corrupt them. If a person will cheat, they will do it no matter what clothes the other people are wearing...and if you think a woman in a thong will offer no resistance...you have never been to Venice beach. 8:)

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Muslima wrote: since glorfindel is from ksa..it is normal of him to think that covering the face is a must

but i am sure that covering the face is not a must in islam!

only in one exception, if a girl is extremely pretty or she gets alot annoying guys on her back then she has to cover her face

Saracen wrote: Muslima wrote: since glorfindel is from ksa..it is normal of him to think that covering the face is a must

but i am sure that covering the face is not a must in islam!

only in one exception, if a girl is extremely pretty or she gets alot annoying guys on her back then she has to cover her face

Guess it's me, pharaoh and you versus Glorfindel. Let's bring up the facts.

Quote: 1) In the Arabic of the Prophet (sAas), the word "khimar" referred to a HEADCOVERING. This can be seen in the hadiths in which the Prophet (sAas) wiped his wet hands over his khimar and his socks, from which the scholars have derived that it is halal to wipe wet hands over the HEADCOVERING and the socks.

2) The authorities on classical Arabic have defined the word "khimar" as a HEADCOVERING. For instance the dictionary Aqrab al-Mawarid defines the word "khimar" as, "All such pieces of cloth which are used to cover the head. It is a piece of cloth which is used by a woman to cover her head". The great scholar Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir defines the word "khimar" in the following words, "Khumur is the plural of khimar which means something that covers, and is what is used to cover the head. This is what is known among the people as a khimar". A modern scholar, Shaykh Muhammad al-Munajjid says, "Khimar comes from the word khamr, the root meaning of which is to cover. For example, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: 'Khammiru aaniyatakum (cover your vessels).' Everything that covers something else is called its khimar. But in common usage khimar has come to be used as a name for the garment with which a woman covers her head; in some cases this does not go against the linguistic meaning of khimar. Some of the fuqaha have defined it as that which covers the head, the temples and the neck. The difference between the hijab and the khimar is that the hijab is something which covers all of a woman’s body, whilst the khimar in general is something with which a woman covers her head".

3) Imam Abu Abdullah Qurtubi describes the historical circumstances relating to the wearing of the khimar in pre-Islamic Arabia as follows, "Women in those days used to cover their heads with the khimar, throwing its ends upon their backs. This left the neck and the upper part of the chest bare, along with the ears, in the manner of the Christians. Then Allah commanded them to cover those parts with the khimar". Similarly, Imam Abu'l-Fida ibn Kathir reports, "'Draw their khumur to cover their bosoms' means that they should wear the khimar in such a way that they cover their chests so that they will be different from the women of the jahiliyyah who did not do that but would pass in front of men with their chests uncovered and with their necks, forelocks, hair and earrings uncovered". Both of these descriptions provide clear, explicit, specific explanations of what "extend their khimars to cover their bosoms" means.

4) The scholars have agreed unanimously that the khimar is a HEADCOVERING.

http://www.muhajabah.com/sunna-yes.htm#hijab

I don't think that there is a single mention in the Koran that admonishes women to cover their faces.

Pharoah, Muslima and Moath, my dear brothers and sister... here is a link for a research in Arabic that will answer all our questions and end our disagreement

http://saaid.net/Doat/khojah/1-3.doc

salam

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

wormwood wrote: Quote: Shhh! pharaoh! Islam is a peaceful religion, remember?
Ha Ha your secret is out now Moath, I'm telling John :lol: .

This concept of a woman having to cover herself is hard for me to understand. Is there regulation on the men being covered?

Glorfindel, why do you seem so much more eager to have women covered?

In my opinion, women are the most beautiful creatures in all of creation, to keep them covered seems like such a waste. If a woman WANTS to cover herself to avoid unwanted attention, that is one thing, but to force all women to do so, seems unfair and completely biased.

it isn't me that came up with this obligation...

and because women are the most beautiful and attractive creatures that Islam made covering the body and face for women an obligation...

I mean you don't see diamonds put for sale on shelves in your grocery ..no... you would notice that a diamond is always being protected and guarded...

it is the same thing with women... Islam made the covering of the face and body not to restrict women... but to protect them from prying eyes and sexual harassments.

you are from the US... I mean how many women are getting raped everyday? and how many women are getting sexually harassed everyday? I mean those women would not be harassed if those who harassed them did not see something in those women

I'm not forcing women to cover themselves... thats for the muslim woman to do as a part of her religion... and most muslim women want to follow the orders of their religion... it is your fake freedom that want to give them only the liberty to take off their clothes... last year in France muslim women were protesting the French government new regulations that prohibit muslim women from wearing their Hijabs...

you are free to walk around in the skimpiest bikini you could buy... but you do NOT have the freedom to wear a piece of cloth that covers your head and hair...now that seems unfair and biased..wouldn't you agree?

wormwood · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 2670 Location: The P-Brane

Salaam Glorfindel,

First let me say, thank you for your civil reply...I know it can be frustrating debating religion. Please excuse me if my opinions seem offensive or outlandish.

Quote: it isn't me that came up with this obligation...

and because women are the most beautiful and attractive creatures that Islam made covering the body and face for women an obligation...

I mean you don't see diamonds put for sale on shelves in your grocery ..no... you would notice that a diamond is always being protected and guarded... I wasn't suggesting that you made the rule :lol:
I just noticed you were for it, and the other guys were not. The diamond metaphor is a good explanation, but do you see how some people might view this as objectifying women? Why do they need more protection than a man?

Quote: it is the same thing with women... Islam made the covering of the face and body not to restrict women... but to protect them from prying eyes and sexual harassments. Shouldn't it be a choice though? If you are not being harassed, then why the protective measures? Are some women not just hideous and in no need of covering?

Quote: you are from the US... I mean how many women are getting raped everyday? and how many women are getting sexually harassed everyday? I mean those women would not be harassed if those who harassed them did not see something in those women The numbers would depend on what stats you checked and what they consider rape. I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but I will just say that it is a popular trend to claim someone raped you just to get what you want (usually money). Also, I have known people that cheated on their boyfriends and then when questioned, they claimed they were raped. I am not saying that rape doesn't happen, but I do think that the figures are highly distorted. Also, psychologists have shown that rape is more of a control issue than a sexual issue.

Something occurs to me, simply talking someone into sex can be considered rape...if anywhere in the back of their mind the woman did not want to have sex...this could be rape...even if she didn't openly say no. You use the west as an example...but using the same definitions of rape that we use, I wonder how countries like Iran would stack up? Then consider cultures that don't wear ANY clothes and compare their instances of rape.

Quote: I'm not forcing women to cover themselves... thats for the muslim woman to do as a part of her religion... and most muslim women want to follow the orders of their religion... it is your fake freedom that want to give them only the liberty to take off their clothes My "fake" freedom, means being able to do what one wishes. If you want to be covered, then cover up; if not, then you should not be obligated to do so. I just don't feel like someone else's view of morality should have any bearing on my life. By that I mean, you should be free to make the wrong choices, it makes the right choices that much better when you make them. It is not my place to regulate the morality of other people, only God has the wisdom to do that...so if they dress in a way in which I do not approve, I can only hope that if they are offensive to YHVH, he will teach them or give them the wisdom to understand their own shortcomings.

In truth many people that dress in a revealing way have confidence problems and need constant reassurance that they are attractive...why add to their problems with my limited understanding of the divine workings of the universe?

Peace be with you.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1642

well god bless the women who cover their faces.....

but i still thnk that covering the face is not a must and i have a good reason to do that!

what is the point of covering all the face except the eyes?
aren't the eyes the most beautiful thing in the face?

and covering the whole face is sometimes frustrating, from my experience!

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

wormwood wrote: Salaam Glorfindel,

First let me say, thank you for your civil reply...I know it can be frustrating debating religion. Please excuse me if my opinions seem offensive or outlandish.

Quote: it isn't me that came up with this obligation...

and because women are the most beautiful and attractive creatures that Islam made covering the body and face for women an obligation...

I mean you don't see diamonds put for sale on shelves in your grocery ..no... you would notice that a diamond is always being protected and guarded... I wasn't suggesting that you made the rule :lol:
I just noticed you were for it, and the other guys were not. The diamond metaphor is a good explanation, but do you see how some people might view this as objectifying women? Why do they need more protection than a man?

Quote: it is the same thing with women... Islam made the covering of the face and body not to restrict women... but to protect them from prying eyes and sexual harassments. Shouldn't it be a choice though? If you are not being harassed, then why the protective measures? Are some women not just hideous and in no need of covering?

Quote: you are from the US... I mean how many women are getting raped everyday? and how many women are getting sexually harassed everyday? I mean those women would not be harassed if those who harassed them did not see something in those women The numbers would depend on what stats you checked and what they consider rape. I don't want to get into a whole thing here, but I will just say that it is a popular trend to claim someone raped you just to get what you want (usually money). Also, I have known people that cheated on their boyfriends and then when questioned, they claimed they were raped. I am not saying that rape doesn't happen, but I do think that the figures are highly distorted. Also, psychologists have shown that rape is more of a control issue than a sexual issue.

Something occurs to me, simply talking someone into sex can be considered rape...if anywhere in the back of their mind the woman did not want to have sex...this could be rape...even if she didn't openly say no. You use the west as an example...but using the same definitions of rape that we use, I wonder how countries like Iran would stack up? Then consider cultures that don't wear ANY clothes and compare their instances of rape.

Quote: I'm not forcing women to cover themselves... thats for the muslim woman to do as a part of her religion... and most muslim women want to follow the orders of their religion... it is your fake freedom that want to give them only the liberty to take off their clothes My "fake" freedom, means being able to do what one wishes. If you want to be covered, then cover up; if not, then you should not be obligated to do so. I just don't feel like someone else's view of morality should have any bearing on my life. By that I mean, you should be free to make the wrong choices, it makes the right choices that much better when you make them. It is not my place to regulate the morality of other people, only God has the wisdom to do that...so if they dress in a way in which I do not approve, I can only hope that if they are offensive to YHVH, he will teach them or give them the wisdom to understand their own shortcomings.

In truth many people that dress in a revealing way have confidence problems and need constant reassurance that they are attractive...why add to their problems with my limited understanding of the divine workings of the universe?

Peace be with you.

wormwood

first of all ... you are wlecome but there is no need to thank me... and actually I enjoy talking about religions and i consider it my responsibility to answer the questions and discuss non-muslims about Islam

and the only thing that I don't agree on with my fellow muslims here is a matter of debate and discussion

we all agree that a woman must cover her body and hair... I disagree with them on the issue of including the face in that cover...

I see how some might see this as objectifying women..but if you understand why Islam has set such an obligation, you will not see it that way

about the reason why they need the protection more than men... well I think you said that in your first post.... they are as you said the most beautiful creatures on earth...they are covetted and wanted by men and hence they need the protection

even if the number of rape cases are exaggerated... it is still alarming

in Saudi Arabia for example, the number of rape cases can not even match the number of rape cases in one state here in America... I have great respect for the science of psychology but that does not mean psychologist can not be wrong... it could be a matter of control... everything we do as human is a matter of control... if you control your diet , you will not get fat, but it would be hard to stop you from eating the worst unhealthy thing if you have been very hungry...

same thing here... if women are walking around wearing very suggestive and sexy clothes , a man can control himself but maybe another weaker man under certain circumstances will not...so saying it is all about control goes to everything on the world...

lemme ask you a question, if a girl comes to your class wearing a tight tank top that reveals her chest and a short skirt, what would you say about her? you would say that she is trying to get some attention, maybe think of her body or her manners

in general, you would make assumptions about her regardless if those assumptions are right or not... but if her body is covered and you can't say any part of her body that you as a man appreciate...you would not be able to make any assumptions about her or her purposes

please bear in mind that when i talked about "your fake freedom".. I was not talking about your own perspective of what freedom means... I meant the idea of freedom in the west in general..like in France and what happened there for example... why is it so hard to believe that this muslim woman has exploited her right as a free woman to obey the obligations of her religions? I mean I see many muslim girls in America ,who if they want can stop covering their bodies and heads, but they do cover their bodies and heads and follow the teachings of Islam. they are not forced to wear them... they choose to.

your choices are your own...right or wrong... but lemme give you an example... if we are sitting around a fire ... you have the freedom to burn yourself.. but wouldn't it be better for you if I told you that putting your hand in the fire could get your hand pretty burned up and you could die or get hurt by doing so? I mean the choice would still be yours and the decision is also yours to make and me telling you what I think is right or what i think is dangerous does not take your fredom away from you

you see what I'm trying to get to here?

peace

pharaoh · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:23 am Post subject:

Quote: I think this is a topic for another thread...I wonder why things started this way?

Because it is obvious that you are against the oppresion of women, we can all agree on that but me and you differ in that you are for all out freedom and I, on the other hand, thinks that means more trouble and chaos.

Quote: For example, in some cultures people of all ages are allowed to drink alcohol and they have no problems... in the U.S. alcohol use is repressed, so it turns into a host of social problems, especially for the people too young to drink.

You really think that there is no problems if people of all ages drink alcohol? Wow, even grown ups have tons of problems from alcohol and you are saying its ok if children drink alcohol??
Are you like completely unaware of the side effects of drinking alcohol?
http://www.bupa.co.uk/health_information/html/healthy_living/lifestyle/alcohol/alcohol3.html

http://www.med.unc.edu/alcohol/prevention/health.html

Quote: It is illegal for women to show their breast in public in the U.S. (which is sexist in my opinion)..but say they were wearing thongs and a top...I would have no problem with this...and if I did, I could move to an area where people were more sheltered and prudish like I was.

Okay so lets take points of what you said:

1- It is ok in your opinion to show their breasts and wear just a thong in public
2- You see no apparent side effect of that

okay lets carry on..

Quote: The effect would be, the children would grow up knowing what a human female's body looks like, so they would not view it is dirty or out of place. There are many cultures which did/do not use cloths, and they didn't all turn into rapists and sociopaths. It is your value of right and wrong which makes it seem as if a problem will arise, and not and inherent "right" or "wrong" of reality.

Oooh? The children would know what a female's body looks like and they wont view it as dirty or "out of place"?

So I understand that you are anti censorship?? Children should watch sexual or nude movies and that is A-Okay and in fact it will benefetial for them? Amazing.

Quote: I imagine they would become desensitized like I have. You want me to draw a correlation between clothing and morality, but I just don't see it. I am not saying every woman should dress as skimpy as possible, but I am saying they should have the right to do so if they so choose. It seems like you want me to say that my boys would become sexists and my girls would become w***s, but this is completely illogical. The only way children turn out bad, is because their parents let them, it is not societies fault.

Sorry but I think you are wrong. You would be very naive to think that children are not influenced by what they see and hear. Children nowadays are completely influenced by TV. You think that its okay for your children to see such things and these things wont have the slightest effect on their morality, well That is wrong, you see, when your little girls will see all these women dressing in almost nothing they would want to do like them cause that would be the norm. They would grow up knowing that their body attract the eyes of men and they will use their bodies to get what they want, whether it is a boy friend or faster promotion at work (if shes prettier than the others) in the end it will be highly unlikely that the girls will find "prince charming" in such an enviroment where beauty is everything and a women will be automaticaly judged by her appearance. This will be a very immoral enviroment, a women would be automaticaly viewed as a sex object even if she doesnt want to, cause in the minds of men they will view her as a w****, you cant change that concept it would be always there, men would always view a half naked women as a w**** and many men wouldnt want to settle down with such a women, I mean why do so when he can always find a cuter girl? Why settle down in the first place? why have babies?
Your little boys will also be sexiest, whether they want to or not, they will view women as creatures that are only there to satisfy their needs, I mean what do you expect them to think of? Cause whenever they see a half naked women, or a women dressed in nothing but a bikini walking down the street they will be turned on. And just how will they satisfy their needs? I mean love wont do it, it must be sex, so they wont search for love and a women to settle down with but they will search about easy and quick action: Sex. In such an environment dont expect men to take care of their wives or to be loyal to them. dont expect men to have the desire to raise kids, dont expect the women to be good moms cause they will spend all of their time trying to keep their husbands or if they lost them they will spend all of their time to get another mate to help them raise the kids and ofcourse to feel like they are still desired and so...
So what you thought would be heaven on earth turned out to be hell on earth, total chaos, when everybody is free to do what he/she wants when he/she wants there wont be happiness, maybe happiness in the short term but definitely not in the lonf term.

Quote: In the free world, yes women do dictate their own fashion. Maybe men control advertising and media outlets, but it is still up to the women to buy and support these things..no one is forced to do anything. It has been my experience that women LIKE to be pretty, so I don't really see how men are forcing cloths or styles onto them.

I didnt say that men control the fashion itself, I mean they control the business. Yes women like to be pretty and thats because they want to feel good about themselves, they want to feel like they are desired by men. So yes they acheive their objective, a pretty women is indeed desired by men, especially if shes a celebrety, we all know Pamela anderson right? And the likes of her, and what happens when they desire this women? A husband who is constantly bombarded by half naked girls in the media and in the streets wont be satisfied as before with his average looking wife, thats a sure thing, maybe he wont even be very much happy about his all life which includes kids and a wife and responsabilities. Maybe he will feel like he is wasting his life by being a husband and maybe he should "live it" by just doing whatever he wants when he wants and no holding back, what would the result of that be on the wife and on the children??