Political Crossfire Forums

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

The perfect society: The ant hill. Discuss further.

NobleOne · Joined: 07 Feb 2006 Posts: 78

Someone's a Monarchist!

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

NobleOne wrote: Someone's a Monarchist!
A benevolent monarchy will always be more effective for the governed and efficient than a bureaucracy driven government.

bubbleyumm · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 13 Location: far far away

pfft
no perfect society.
no such thing.
we all have flaws,
and we all are unique.
if we were perfect
everyone would be the same.
no creativity left.
no good music,
no war,
no ... anything really..

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

bubbleyumm wrote: pfft
no perfect society.
no such thing.
we all have flaws,
and we all are unique.
if we were perfect
everyone would be the same.
no creativity left.
no good music,
no war,
no ... anything really..
You are correct in that their is no perfect society. Ants do have a very efficient and effective system of hierarchy and specialization, though. Also, they fill their needs willingly because they're recognize that self sacrifice is more rewarding than depriving resources from others solely for themselves. It is a system I feel humans still have trouble grasping. It is a very good example of society, though there is no such thing as perfection.

Rozzlapeed · Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Posts: 435 Location: Scottsdale, AZ

I disagree with the idea that a society that satisfies every need of its members is a better society than one that doesn't.

I also disagree that it is better for individuals to be content with filling a specific role. The desire to increase one's influence over reality is the engine that drives creativity and social progress. Society as a whole benefits from every individual's rejection of the status quo.

Agent Orange · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 42 Location: Etobicoke

Perfection is the flaw. We, Human Beings by nature are not perfect in anyway especially when it comes to the greater good department. Take Communism for example. A perfect utopian idea. Everyone is equal. Sounds good right? Wrong. It contradicts human nature. Human nature is to be better then the next person. To be richer, stronger, smarter, to have a bigger house, nicer stuff and a larger pay check. Its a sad reality of modern day materialism's effects on humanity. In theory Communism works perfectly if in theory Humanity worked just as perfectly. It does not.

Communism only failed first though... remember that. By no means is any other society with any form a government perfect. There are ones that work better yes (less crime, less pollution etc) but there is no perfect society though and never will be as long as we are human by nature.

Religion is another great example. Imagine a world where people didn't kill because the bible, Koran and other religious teachings taught us it was wrong. Imagine a world where everyone obeyed the 10 commandments or the other primary teachings in any other religion. But as a matter of fact genocide's have been committed on the bases of religious belief. Holy wars, Crusades, genocide's, Mass murder etc etc etc. This proves that by nature, regardless how perfect the ideals and rules we follow their will always be those who disobey those beliefs and rules.

So I Say Nay To A Perfect Society... its a impossibility... would be bland and sterile anyway.
But a utopian idealist and try to make things as good as possible within reason is a good thing.

hemlock · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 23

How do we know that we do not already live in a perfect society? We have never faced a species more intelligent or ambitious as us. We don't even know what perfection really is. We do not know what it is because we have never seen the perfect society. We have only theories of what the perfect society would be which we are driven by our ambition to achieve so how do we know we have no already achieved perfection and we just keep raising the bar.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Perfection is a myth; there is only struggle and improvement.

Ants struggle, but they do not improve. Their homes, their lives, and their society have been the same for millions of years.

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Perfection is a myth; there is only struggle and improvement.

Ants struggle, but they do not improve. Their homes, their lives, and their society have been the same for millions of years.
Ants do vary. And there are other colonial type insects that follow in the same fashion as your typical ants (perhaps two branches of the same tree?). Different ants manage their well being in different ways (namely due to the region they're in), however the system of hierarchy is still the same. This is because it is so very effective for them.

As for the struggle for improvement, how can we improve if there is no perfection or terminal limit to good or bad. There is no valid point of reference for perfection.

Rozzlapeed · Joined: 11 Nov 2004 Posts: 435 Location: Scottsdale, AZ

TreizeEnder wrote: As for the struggle for improvement, how can we improve if there is no perfection or terminal limit to good or bad. There is no valid point of reference for perfection.

We improve by creating new realms of possibility, not by moving closer to an artificial point.

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

Quote: We improve by creating new realms of possibility, not by moving closer to an artificial point.
Is this not an artificial point? "Creating" new realms of "possibility"? I think these are one in the same, unfortunately.

hemlock · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 23

how do we know were not already at perfection?

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:34 pm Post subject:

No society.

hemlock · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 23

How do we know what a perfect society would be if we have never been in one. If we ever do reach perfection then we may find that perfection isn't what we want.

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

hemlock wrote: How do we know what a perfect society would be if we have never been in one. If we ever do reach perfection then we may find that perfection isn't what we want.

Perhaps we are a perfect society to someone's standards, and hopelessly and totally flawed in another's perspective. As I have stated before, perfection is seemingly relative to an individual's ideas. I don't think you need worry about us ever reaching perfection and not wanting it if relativity applies here.

usuchamp · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 272

The world of capitalism is based on a pursuance of continuous improvement. If systems can be improved, then they aren't perfect by definition. Perfection would be the realization tomorrow of improvement strived for today. Thus, perfection may never be reached, but the process of striving for such perfection may indeed be perfection itself.

conguy · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 28

Ahh, but what about ant poison? They seem quite susceptible to the stuff. :lol:

Sataere · Joined: 27 Jan 2006 Posts: 226 Location: Ohio

The only way to EVER have a perfect society is one without humans whatsoever. Perfection is the absense of flaws, and all flaws are created by human sentient judgement. Without humans judging society, it would be utterly perfect.

TreizeEnder · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 88

Sataere wrote: The only way to EVER have a perfect society is one without humans whatsoever. Perfection is the absense of flaws, and all flaws are created by human sentient judgement. Without humans judging society, it would be utterly perfect.
Maybe this is how you persieve perfection, but there is still no such thing as far as I know. It is not universally definable for everyone or anything. There are two types of living: alone or together, but there is no perfect society or perfect anything. Only how we choose to develope; the same applies with inanimate matter.