Political Crossfire Forums

[Darth Tiberius]

John wrote: Quote: In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews.

What churches?

I'm yet to experience this.

The churches I have been to and the churches I see on TV and the churches I know others have gone to. General attitudes as well outside church.

[Robin Hood]

Quote: In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews.

I an atheist and if I were religious I wouldn't be Cristian, but I've never heard of churches doing such things in todays age. You can be sure if it happened that it'd be splashed across every newspaper around the world.

[jeechoscopy]

Darth Tiberius wrote: That's again putting the same problem Christians have. We must all work together and understand each other so we are as one regardless of belief. I fear both of the major religions and even the smaller ones get that horribly wrong. I disagreed witht he cartoons published about Muhammed but there was a serious overreation about it. You had near-terrorists proclaiming that beheadings and killings should be made. Mentioning 9/11 as well. That is evil. Just as evil as Bush's Holy War. Plus God is illustrated all the time. If the Muslim world doesn't agree then the civil and humane thing to do is to do what any normal person would do and roll your eyes and carry on with life.

One point not mentioned yet in depth is that americans and other countries are demonised severely around the world and especially in the Islamic world as infidels. That is wrong. Just as wrong as Muslims and non-Americans being demonised in america and in the Western world.

The solution is to basically put our religion aside and look apon others not as allies or enemies. But as humans. Humans that are good until proven bad. Burt then even bad people can still have a chance at redemption. I'm an athiest through and through. I believe religion is wrong and destructive but I still value the right for otjhers to have religion and I have Muslim and a couple Christian friends and I don't mind them having their belief. Unless it leads to racism, bigotry or when a belief is force fed apon you.

For that verse you said Muslims cannort be attacked by fellow Muslims. What about if Iran or Syria decided to launch a war killing many americans or foreigners. There was a war and you knew what Iran was doing was wrong. Would you still side with your Muslim bretheren then if they were doing something deeply immoral???

I appreciate your thought. Quite brave and fair!!

On your question I’ll say, “No.”

Brotherhood doesn’t force you to support your brothers while they are wrong. This imaginative question is just from cognates. You would merely find an example a Muslim majority country attacked a non-Muslim country especially in the day’s history. According to Islamic rolls you are not right if you would attack them first… Neither Syrians nor Iranian have the capability to fight alone to the whole world. Though Iran is economically stronger…

The most part of your writing have the faith Muslims already equipped. I admire your approach!

[DavidXV]

:x

None of the Churches I have been in do that. I you get your info from marxist professors or leftist media and you believe it, you go through life with nothing but ridiculous falsehoods swimming around in your head.

[Saracen]

DavidXV wrote: :x

None of the Churches I have been in do that. I you get your info from marxist professors or leftist media and you believe it, you go through life with nothing but ridiculous falsehoods swimming around in your head.

Do what? :-|

[DavidXV]

Saracen wrote: DavidXV wrote: :x

None of the Churches I have been in do that. I you get your info from marxist professors or leftist media and you believe it, you go through life with nothing but ridiculous falsehoods swimming around in your head.

Do what? :-| Darth said:

"I'm glad we agree about the infidel issue. I find that intolerance however is a bigger issue on the Christian camp. In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews."

I believe the media and marxist professors (who hate Christianity, btw) say that about Christians but never have I heard that "talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews" in any Church, not in the Catholic churches I went to as a kid and not in any of Protestant or non-denominational churches i have been to as an adult... never!

[Saracen]

DavidXV wrote: I belive the media and marxist proffesors say that about Christians but never have I heard that "talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews" in any Church, not in the Catholic churches I went to as a kid and not in any of Protestant or non-denominational churches i have been to as an adult... never!

Right-o. Sorry, man. I mistook your intention at first. :)

[DavidXV]

Saracen wrote: DavidXV wrote: I belive the media and marxist proffesors say that about Christians but never have I heard that "talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews" in any Church, not in the Catholic churches I went to as a kid and not in any of Protestant or non-denominational churches i have been to as an adult... never!

Right-o. Sorry, man. I mistook your intention at first. :) It's okay that's what i thought because i forgot to use the quote thingy.

In Christian churches we are taught that all men are brothers, and Satan is the enemy not other people... it says in the Bible we war not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities (Satan and demons). So that is why even if someone ever seems like they are your enemy they are not they are your brother who is a child of (creation of) God made in His image. If they are being deceived by satan, you have compassion and pray for them, not see them as an enemy... but then that would be talking about people who oppress you or commit criminal acts against you that sort of thing, not Muslims and Jews. It's proper to defend yourself and family against violence, but still you have to not see the person as an enemy, because they are someone who God loves and if they are lost He wants them to find their way back home.

[DavidXV]

8:) And so sorry about derailing the thread so back on topic!

[Saracen]

DavidXV wrote: 8:) And so sorry about derailing the thread so back on topic!

No problem. Your input was appreciated. :-D

[Darth Tiberius]

Saracen wrote: I'll reply to your post as soon as I can, Darth.

I'll look forward to it.

[Darth Tiberius]

jeechoscopy wrote: I appreciate your thought. Quite brave and fair!!

On your question I’ll say, “No.”

Brotherhood doesn’t force you to support your brothers while they are wrong. This imaginative question is just from cognates. You would merely find an example a Muslim majority country attacked a non-Muslim country especially in the day’s history. According to Islamic rolls you are not right if you would attack them first… Neither Syrians nor Iranian have the capability to fight alone to the whole world. Though Iran is economically stronger…

The most part of your writing have the faith Muslims already equipped. I admire your approach!

That it is a very good answer and I am convinced. I've been quite interested recently in the past few months on the teachings of the Muslim faith. I must say that I don't believe in a religion by the history and the theology of the Koran interests me. Where would be the best place to read about the Muslim history.

There is one more question I have that I forogt to mention. This question is quite controversial so I must say I mean no offense. I heard stories mainly from the days when I was religious under Christianity a long time ago about Mohammed. Is it true that Mohammed was a leader of the area that he lived in? Second question (and this is the controversial one) is that I heard that there was a story where Mohammed was preaching to the people and a old lady stood up and questioned and opposed some of his teachings, then Mohammed had her ends (arms and legs) tied to a horse carriage and then stretched until she died of back strain. In the story she died for opposition and questioning Mohammed's teachings. Is this true or have you heard any similar stories. I'd just like to know if this is another lie that the Christian church has told me when I was young or if there is an element of truth.

DavidXV wrote: Darth said:

"I'm glad we agree about the infidel issue. I find that intolerance however is a bigger issue on the Christian camp. In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews."

I believe the media and marxist professors (who hate Christianity, btw) say that about Christians but never have I heard that "talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews" in any Church, not in the Catholic churches I went to as a kid and not in any of Protestant or non-denominational churches i have been to as an adult... never!

The media (especially in America) is often devoted to the capitalist propoganda spread against minorities or those that does not fall in with Western culture or democracy. So the media isn't biased against Christianity whatsoever. That is jjust paranoia spread by the Christian church to look victimised.
Marxists and Marxist professors allways stress the right for freedom of belief and expression. Yes we believe religion is a opiate for the masses and inherently inefficient but that does not give anyone the right to take worship away but we will not be bullied into turning our policies and culture to favour religion.
Apparently you haven't gone to the churches of the Lutheran and Anglican and Catholic denominations. They constantly spread that sort of sentiment that I talked about. My dad is a pastor and I have heard a lot for the 17 years I was made to attend church. The feeling is right there just spread around. I suggest you analyse a bit more of the actions of the church.
You tell that the Bible says that the church is not at war but all I hear from the Christian camp is a constant war against immorality and a war against falsehood in society. That is a very emotive topic not all share. Again it seems Christianity like to just force-feed their opinions not caring what the other people think.

[Showboat]

Back to the start of this thread. I was doing some thinking and reading over the weekend about this whole context thing. It seems to me that one could read the whole koran from cover to cover for the rest of ones life and one wouldn't understand it at all unless one knew when and under what situation each particular chapter was revealed to the Prophet. The Koran itself doesn't seem to tell us when and where each chapter was revealed, so how do scholars know?? This whole "friends" thing for example; it doesn't actually say Mohammad was waring with some other tribes or whatever, but Islamic scholars seem to know this is what is being talked about. Beats me how they know?

[pharaoh]

Showboat wrote: Back to the start of this thread. I was doing some thinking and reading over the weekend about this whole context thing. It seems to me that one could read the whole koran from cover to cover for the rest of ones life and one wouldn't understand it at all unless one knew when and under what situation each particular chapter was revealed to the Prophet. The Koran itself doesn't seem to tell us when and where each chapter was revealed, so how do scholars know?? This whole "friends" thing for example; it doesn't actually say Mohammad was waring with some other tribes or whatever, but Islamic scholars seem to know this is what is being talked about. Beats me how they know?

The context is really ABC for us muslims. We evven know when the prophet said most of his hadiths.
It is not a MUST to search for the context of a chapter before reading it but it is important when the chapter is talking about war. Cause most non muslims would get the idea that the context is in general but in reality it is not. So I recommend reading the context only for these kind of chapters.

[eynon]

Darth Tiberius wrote: John wrote: Quote: In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews.

What churches?

I'm yet to experience this.

The churches I have been to and the churches I see on TV and the churches I know others have gone to. General attitudes as well outside church.

:lol: I think that you and I may be talking to each other from alternate demensions via some star-trek like worm-hole of something :lol:

anyways, I've never experienced any anti-Jewish sentinment at any church I've ever attended, quite the opposite actually.

As to Islam, well I will confess that I run into quite a bit of ignorance of Islam among American Christians, but it's hard to begrudge them that, most people have barley enough time to practice their own religion :wink: Anyways that ignorance has never turned into hatred or bigotry, infact when I or others pipe up about Islam in bible study it's often greeted with curiosity on he part of my fellow Christians.




we have been known to hit on the evils of Marxism though, 85,000,000 killed in 80 years tends to build up a bit of resentment you know :wink:

[Saracen]

Sorry for the late reply, Darth. I was a bit busy these days.

DT wrote: That's again putting the same problem Christians have. We must all work together and understand each other so we are as one regardless of belief. I fear both of the major religions and even the smaller ones get that horribly wrong. I disagreed witht he cartoons published about Muhammed but there was a serious overreation about it. You had near-terrorists proclaiming that beheadings and killings should be made. Mentioning 9/11 as well. That is evil. Just as evil as Bush's Holy War. Plus God is illustrated all the time. If the Muslim world doesn't agree then the civil and humane thing to do is to do what any normal person would do and roll your eyes and carry on with life.

Well, most of the Muslims reacted to this cartoon by either not caring about the whole f***ing issue to begin with, or just boycotted (mind my harshness: I'm feeling kinda iffy today). But I agree that the overreactions were substantiated and too much. I think they shouldn't have happened either. It is evil, yes. The Muslim world has done a lot of civil things. Just because thousands protested violently, doesn't mean the hundreds of millions more did the same thing.

Darth Tiberius wrote: One point not mentioned yet in depth is that americans and other countries are demonised severely around the world and especially in the Islamic world as infidels. That is wrong. Just as wrong as Muslims and non-Americans being demonised in america and in the Western world.

Tiberius, you're not an infidel: you have not attacked Islam or Muslims. But I agree with you on this.

Darth Tiberius wrote: The solution is to basically put our religion aside and look apon others not as allies or enemies. But as humans. Humans that are good until proven bad. Burt then even bad people can still have a chance at redemption. I'm an athiest through and through. I believe religion is wrong and destructive but I still value the right for otjhers to have religion and I have Muslim and a couple Christian friends and I don't mind them having their belief. Unless it leads to racism, bigotry or when a belief is force fed apon you.

Islam believes in equality and the bolded statement you mentioned. I also believe that religion is good when people keep religion to themselves. If they start proselytizing or forcing people into doing what they do, that is annoying and disturbing and should stop.

Darth Tiberius wrote: For that verse you said Muslims cannort be attacked by fellow Muslims. What about if Iran or Syria decided to launch a war killing many americans or foreigners. There was a war and you knew what Iran was doing was wrong. Would you still side with your Muslim bretheren then if they were doing something deeply immoral???

No. We wouldn't side with Iran or Syria: Iran is a Shi'ite Radicalist Nation. Syria is headed by commies. Moreoever, the government of Syria is secullar, not religious.

[Darth Tiberius]

Eynon81 wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: John wrote: Quote: In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews.

What churches?

I'm yet to experience this.

The churches I have been to and the churches I see on TV and the churches I know others have gone to. General attitudes as well outside church.

:lol: I think that you and I may be talking to each other from alternate demensions via some star-trek like worm-hole of something :lol:

anyways, I've never experienced any anti-Jewish sentinment at any church I've ever attended, quite the opposite actually.

As to Islam, well I will confess that I run into quite a bit of ignorance of Islam among American Christians, but it's hard to begrudge them that, most people have barley enough time to practice their own religion :wink: Anyways that ignorance has never turned into hatred or bigotry, infact when I or others pipe up about Islam in bible study it's often greeted with curiosity on he part of my fellow Christians.

we have been known to hit on the evils of Marxism though, 85,000,000 killed in 80 years tends to build up a bit of resentment you know :wink:

I think we have experienced different things then. It is what I've seen and heard. In person and on the media.

Marxism I believe and argue is not responsible for those deaths though.

[Darth Tiberius]

Saracen wrote: Well, most of the Muslims reacted to this cartoon by either not caring about the whole f***ing issue to begin with, or just boycotted (mind my harshness: I'm feeling kinda iffy today). But I agree that the overreactions were substantiated and too much. I think they shouldn't have happened either. It is evil, yes. The Muslim world has done a lot of civil things. Just because thousands protested violently, doesn't mean the hundreds of millions more did the same thing.

I noticed the same thing in the UK. Most Muslims I knew didn't like it but didn't really care too much. I totally believe what you are saying. It is a shame that the Western world seems to judge the Islamic world based on a minority of violent or extreme Muslims. A great shame.

Quote: Tiberius, you're not an infidel: you have not attacked Islam or Muslims. But I agree with you on this.

That's cool. I'm planning on doing some travelling in a few years to a few countries. Two being Islamic. UAE and another. Do you think a American athiest Marxist would be warmly accepted there for the time I am there? I'm sure I would since I am quite respectful to others' religious beliefs. But Muslim culture inguiges and interests me.

Quote: Islam believes in equality and the bolded statement you mentioned. I also believe that religion is good when people keep religion to themselves. If they start proselytizing or forcing people into doing what they do, that is annoying and disturbing and should stop.

That is good. We are in total agreement. :-D

Quote: No. We wouldn't side with Iran or Syria: Iran is a Shi'ite Radicalist Nation. Syria is headed by commies. Moreoever, the government of Syria is secullar, not religious.

That's cool. What about if you had a citizenship say in America and you were drafted to fight against Iran. Would you choose to fight or be a objector to the war and refuse to fight?

There is one more question I have that I forogt to mention. This question is quite controversial so I must say I mean no offense. I heard stories mainly from the days when I was religious under Christianity a long time ago about Mohammed. Is it true that Mohammed was a leader of the area that he lived in? Second question (and this is the controversial one) is that I heard that there was a story where Mohammed was preaching to the people and a old lady stood up and questioned and opposed some of his teachings, then Mohammed had her ends (arms and legs) tied to a horse carriage and then stretched until she died of back strain. In the story she died for opposition and questioning Mohammed's teachings. Is this true or have you heard any similar stories? I'd just like to know if this is another lie that the Christian church has told me when I was young or if there is an element of truth.

I've been quite interested recently in the past few months on the teachings of the Muslim faith. I must say that I don't believe in a religion by the history and the theology of the Koran interests me. Where would be the best place to read about the Muslim history?

[Saracen]

DT wrote: I noticed the same thing in the UK. Most Muslims I knew didn't like it but didn't really care too much. I totally believe what you are saying. It is a shame that the Western world seems to judge the Islamic world based on a minority of violent or extreme Muslims. A great shame.

It is.

DT wrote: That's cool. I'm planning on doing some travelling in a few years to a few countries. Two being Islamic. UAE and another. Do you think a American athiest Marxist would be warmly accepted there for the time I am there? I'm sure I would since I am quite respectful to others' religious beliefs. But Muslim culture inguiges and interests me.

Well, as long as you can remain reserved and friendly and open, of course you will be able to mix in.

DT wrote: That is good. We are in total agreement.

Believe me, Darth: I don't care about your religion or political beliefs. I care that you are a person, no more, no less.

DT wrote: That's cool. What about if you had a citizenship say in America and you were drafted to fight against Iran. Would you choose to fight or be a objector to the war and refuse to fight?

I would object to fight because I am against war. Islam is against attack.

DT wrote: There is one more question I have that I forogt to mention. This question is quite controversial so I must say I mean no offense. I heard stories mainly from the days when I was religious under Christianity a long time ago about Mohammed. Is it true that Mohammed was a leader of the area that he lived in? Second question (and this is the controversial one) is that I heard that there was a story where Mohammed was preaching to the people and a old lady stood up and questioned and opposed some of his teachings, then Mohammed had her ends (arms and legs) tied to a horse carriage and then stretched until she died of back strain. In the story she died for opposition and questioning Mohammed's teachings. Is this true or have you heard any similar stories? I'd just like to know if this is another lie that the Christian church has told me when I was young or if there is an element of truth.

Well, Muhammad (PBUH) wasn't exactly a political leader, but he was a leader nonetheless and an Apostle of God. The second story you mentioned is just another tall tale. I've seen many of them. The more tall tales I see, the more I'm convinced that the anti-Islamic arguments are invalid (you're not anti-Islamic, and I can see that :) ). Almost none of these stories have an element of truth. Many of them in fact, like the so-called invasion of Fez, never happened: the Prophet (PBUH) stayed within the Arabian penninsula. This is a good website to learn about the life of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

DT wrote: I've been quite interested recently in the past few months on the teachings of the Muslim faith. I must say that I don't believe in a religion by the history and the theology of the Koran interests me. Where would be the best place to read about the Muslim history?

This is one of the best places I found on the web.

If you have any other questions, please don't hesitate to ask. :-D

[Robin Hood]

Quote: That's cool. I'm planning on doing some travelling in a few years to a few countries. Two being Islamic. UAE and another. Do you think a American athiest Marxist would be warmly accepted there for the time I am there? I'm sure I would since I am quite respectful to others' religious beliefs. But Muslim culture inguiges and interests me.

Just smile and people will be warm. No cultures match the Arabic ones for a tradition of hospitality.

Quote: That's cool. What about if you had a citizenship say in America and you were drafted to fight against Iran. Would you choose to fight or be a objector to the war and refuse to fight?

If one can't a fight a war without a draft it seems that the war is probably not worth fighting.
Quote:
Second question (and this is the controversial one) is that I heard that there was a story where Mohammed was preaching to the people and a old lady stood up and questioned and opposed some of his teachings, then Mohammed had her ends (arms and legs) tied to a horse carriage and then stretched until she died of back strain. In the story she died for opposition and questioning Mohammed's teachings. Is this true or have you heard any similar stories? I'd just like to know if this is another lie that the Christian church has told me when I was young or if there is an element of truth.

We are talking about 1500 years ago, a time without a printing press, and without much literacy. It is as impossible to be sure of small incidents as it is to be sure of minor points of theology.