Political Crossfire Forums

[Yang]

005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

also:

Can Allah have a son?

[Saracen]

Yang wrote: 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

A friend and a protector means an ally in warfare against Muslim brethren. It just means that you can't betray your fellow Muslims and side with those who oppose Muslims. Doing so would be treason. Simple as that. The verse it very mistranslated.

As for this verse...

"Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted (sperm)-
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs, (this is how the human embryo grows" (Quran 86:5-7).

To learn more, visit http://www.islam-guide.com/

I have Jewish and Christian friends. However, I can't have them as allies in times of warfare and fight my Muslim brethren.

[Yang]

Can you give me the right translation?

[Saracen]

Gimme time...

[Zeeman]

Quote: Can Allah have a son?

Nope..

[Showboat]

Zeeman wrote: Quote: Can Allah have a son?

Nope..

Surely he could if he wanted one. He's God, he can do anything.

[pharaoh]

Yang wrote: Can you give me the right translation?

I dont think there is any mistranslation, however, it is well known that the verse doesnt forbid muslims from becoming friends with Jews or Christians. The verse orders the muslims not to form alliances with Jews or Christians...thats all.

[Showboat]

The problem is some kid in Leeds get disillusioned with British society and ends up in a dodgy Mosque with some nut job telling him that it DOES mean you can't be friends with Jews and Christians. Then he goes and blows himself up on the London Underground. I know Muslims are good people, but as in every society there are a fringe group of racist crazies. Unfortunately the Koran does seem to contain some verses that are ambiguous and open for nut jobs to exploit for their own means. The problem then is people start blaming Islam in general for terrorism, because they read these verses, that with out explanation, seem to justify terrorism. It's a shame you don't have a Pope like figure head who could put all these ambiguities to bed, one way or the other, so uneducated Muslims can't be led down the wrong path.

[pharaoh]

Quote: The problem is some kid in Leeds get disillusioned with British society and ends up in a dodgy Mosque with some nut job telling him that it DOES mean you can't be friends with Jews and Christians. Then he goes and blows himself up on the London Underground. I know Muslims are good people, but as in every society there are a fringe group of racist crazies.

You are absolutely right. If muslims misinterpret their religion that would most probably lead to some bad things, like suicide bombings for instance.
However, I disagree with you that the Koran is ambigious. Any book no matter what it is would appear to be ambigious and unclear if the reader read only 1 page of that book and thought that he doesnt need to read the whole book because he thinks the page that he read explains everything.
I think that my religion is very clear, it can only be fasly understood if a person doesnt understand his religion as a whole. The koran should be understood in its whole.

Quote: The problem then is people start blaming Islam in general for terrorism, because they read these verses, that with out explanation, seem to justify terrorism. It's a shame you don't have a Pope like figure head who could put all these ambiguities to bed, one way or the other, so uneducated Muslims can't be led down the wrong path.

I think the main problem is not about the inexsistance of a figure like the Pope in Islam. I think the main problem is that most muslim countries are very poor and run by dicatorship regimes. Those 2 factors resulted in HUGE problems on catastrophic proportions...but hey thats offtopic...anyway...

[Showboat]

Quote: You are absolutely right. If muslims misinterpret their religion that would most probably lead to some bad things, like suicide bombings for instance.
However, I disagree with you that the Koran is ambigious. Any book no matter what it is would appear to be ambigious and unclear if the reader read only 1 page of that book and thought that he doesnt need to read the whole book because he thinks the page that he read explains everything.
I think that my religion is very clear, it can only be fasly understood if a person doesnt understand his religion as a whole. The koran should be understood in its whole.


My point is that, for example, the kids that blew themselves up in London new little about Islam before they were exposed to the twisted form that these hatemongers preach. It was therefore easy for the "radical" preachers to use these verses that do seem ambigious and unclear to someone who doesn't understand the religion properly to get these kids to blow themselves up.

To you your religion is very clear probably because you've been well educated in it and the verses that may seem ambigious to others have been explained well to you. To me some of it seems very ambigious and open to interpretation. For example this verse under debate, it doesn't say anything about in times of war in it or before it? How would a layman know that was what is being talked about? In fact how does anyone know that is what the context is?

[Saracen]

Showboat wrote: To you your religion is very clear probably because you've been well educated in it and the verses that may seem ambigious to others have been explained well to you. To me some of it seems very ambigious and open to interpretation. For example this verse under debate, it doesn't say anything about in times of war in it or before it? How would a layman know that was what is being talked about? In fact how does anyone know that is what the context is?

I would recommend a layman who has some background in Sharia, a full knowledge of the life of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and Islamic Religion Science, or Fiqh. Furthermore, the context of the verse depends on the setting the verse was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). For example, the verse:

Quote: (9:5) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Here is some commentary on this context that I speak of:

Quote: The command to fight against the perfidious and treacherous group of infidels who persistently violated the treaties and tried to destroy peace and security, was to restore law and order in the society. The command was not general but only refers to particular groups of the Makkan idolaters who were notorious offenders. They used to harass the Muslims whenever they found them helpless and when overpowered prayed for amnesty by making treaties which they used to break before their ink was dried.

When war becomes inevitable it must be fought with vigour. It may take the form of slaughter, or capture, or siege or ambush, but even then there is room for repentance and amendment, and if that takes place forgiveness is enjoined for the establishment of peace and harmony.

http://www.al-quran.org.uk/

[Glorfindel]

Yang wrote: 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

also:

Can Allah have a son?

this question has been asked before check this link and you will see the mistranslations

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48402

peace

[nrhy]

that´s the problem with religious books´s ...It is always about interpretation :-|

[Saracen]

nrhy wrote: that´s the problem with religious books´s ...It is always about interpretation :-|

Very true.

[Darth Tiberius]

Saracen wrote: Yang wrote: 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

A friend and a protector means an ally in warfare against Muslim brethren. It just means that you can't betray your fellow Muslims and side with those who oppose Muslims. Doing so would be treason. Simple as that. The verse it very mistranslated.

As for this verse...

"Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted (sperm)-
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs, (this is how the human embryo grows" (Quran 86:5-7).

To learn more, visit http://www.islam-guide.com/

I have Jewish and Christian friends. However, I can't have them as allies in times of warfare and fight my Muslim brethren.

That's again putting the same problem Christians have. We must all work together and understand each other so we are as one regardless of belief. I fear both of the major religions and even the smaller ones get that horribly wrong. I disagreed witht he cartoons published about Muhammed but there was a serious overreation about it. You had near-terrorists proclaiming that beheadings and killings should be made. Mentioning 9/11 as well. That is evil. Just as evil as Bush's Holy War. Plus God is illustrated all the time. If the Muslim world doesn't agree then the civil and humane thing to do is to do what any normal person would do and roll your eyes and carry on with life.

One point not mentioned yet in depth is that americans and other countries are demonised severely around the world and especially in the Islamic world as infidels. That is wrong. Just as wrong as Muslims and non-Americans being demonised in america and in the Western world.

The solution is to basically put our religion aside and look apon others not as allies or enemies. But as humans. Humans that are good until proven bad. Burt then even bad people can still have a chance at redemption. I'm an athiest through and through. I believe religion is wrong and destructive but I still value the right for otjhers to have religion and I have Muslim and a couple Christian friends and I don't mind them having their belief. Unless it leads to racism, bigotry or when a belief is force fed apon you.

For that verse you said Muslims cannort be attacked by fellow Muslims. What about if Iran or Syria decided to launch a war killing many americans or foreigners. There was a war and you knew what Iran was doing was wrong. Would you still side with your Muslim bretheren then if they were doing something deeply immoral???

[Saracen]

I'll reply to your post as soon as I can, Darth.

[Muslima]

Darth Tiberius wrote: Saracen wrote: Yang wrote: 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

A friend and a protector means an ally in warfare against Muslim brethren. It just means that you can't betray your fellow Muslims and side with those who oppose Muslims. Doing so would be treason. Simple as that. The verse it very mistranslated.

As for this verse...

"Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted (sperm)-
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs, (this is how the human embryo grows" (Quran 86:5-7).

To learn more, visit http://www.islam-guide.com/

I have Jewish and Christian friends. However, I can't have them as allies in times of warfare and fight my Muslim brethren.

That's again putting the same problem Christians have. We must all work together and understand each other so we are as one regardless of belief. I fear both of the major religions and even the smaller ones get that horribly wrong. I disagreed witht he cartoons published about Muhammed but there was a serious overreation about it. You had near-terrorists proclaiming that beheadings and killings should be made. Mentioning 9/11 as well. That is evil. Just as evil as Bush's Holy War. Plus God is illustrated all the time. If the Muslim world doesn't agree then the civil and humane thing to do is to do what any normal person would do and roll your eyes and carry on with life.

One point not mentioned yet in depth is that americans and other countries are demonised severely around the world and especially in the Islamic world as infidels. That is wrong. Just as wrong as Muslims and non-Americans being demonised in america and in the Western world.

The solution is to basically put our religion aside and look apon others not as allies or enemies. But as humans. Humans that are good until proven bad. Burt then even bad people can still have a chance at redemption. I'm an athiest through and through. I believe religion is wrong and destructive but I still value the right for otjhers to have religion and I have Muslim and a couple Christian friends and I don't mind them having their belief. Unless it leads to racism, bigotry or when a belief is force fed apon you.

For that verse you said Muslims cannort be attacked by fellow Muslims. What about if Iran or Syria decided to launch a war killing many americans or foreigners. There was a war and you knew what Iran was doing was wrong. Would you still side with your Muslim bretheren then if they were doing something deeply immoral???

the protestors of the cartoons should have taken in consideration that nobody should harmed, they could have protested without the burning and stuff.
i strongly agree with you about the infidel issue, i mean we are all humans and daughters and sons of adam and eve. i don't think that islam or christainity (the two religions i have info about) encourages hatred towards each other.
there is a verse in the quran where it says that muslims should only fight when they are attacked....
besides i don't think that syria or iran are able to kill or have a war!

however, i think that every country has the right to own what other countries own...

i know that i haven't answered your questions but hope it is fulfilling till moath comes back

[jeechoscopy]

Showboat wrote: Zeeman wrote: Quote: Can Allah have a son?

Nope..

Surely he could if he wanted one. He's God, he can do anything.

Exactly! He could if he wanted…

Any creation from God shouldn’t be considered a God’s inherent. God is more valid than any inherence. You could valuate one by thinking a God’s inherent but God get devaluated.
Creation of Adam could also be taken, as a God’s inherent but not.
Creation of Eve could also be taken as Adam’s daughter but not.

God have man makes miracles!!

[Darth Tiberius]

Muslima wrote: Darth Tiberius wrote: Saracen wrote: Yang wrote: 005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk.
SHAKIR: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

"Now let man but think from what he is created! He is created from a drop emitted-Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs," (Quran 86:5-7).

Does that mean sperm comes from your chest? :lol:

A friend and a protector means an ally in warfare against Muslim brethren. It just means that you can't betray your fellow Muslims and side with those who oppose Muslims. Doing so would be treason. Simple as that. The verse it very mistranslated.

As for this verse...

"Now let man but think from what he is created!
He is created from a drop emitted (sperm)-
Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs, (this is how the human embryo grows" (Quran 86:5-7).

To learn more, visit http://www.islam-guide.com/

I have Jewish and Christian friends. However, I can't have them as allies in times of warfare and fight my Muslim brethren.

That's again putting the same problem Christians have. We must all work together and understand each other so we are as one regardless of belief. I fear both of the major religions and even the smaller ones get that horribly wrong. I disagreed witht he cartoons published about Muhammed but there was a serious overreation about it. You had near-terrorists proclaiming that beheadings and killings should be made. Mentioning 9/11 as well. That is evil. Just as evil as Bush's Holy War. Plus God is illustrated all the time. If the Muslim world doesn't agree then the civil and humane thing to do is to do what any normal person would do and roll your eyes and carry on with life.

One point not mentioned yet in depth is that americans and other countries are demonised severely around the world and especially in the Islamic world as infidels. That is wrong. Just as wrong as Muslims and non-Americans being demonised in america and in the Western world.

The solution is to basically put our religion aside and look apon others not as allies or enemies. But as humans. Humans that are good until proven bad. Burt then even bad people can still have a chance at redemption. I'm an athiest through and through. I believe religion is wrong and destructive but I still value the right for otjhers to have religion and I have Muslim and a couple Christian friends and I don't mind them having their belief. Unless it leads to racism, bigotry or when a belief is force fed apon you.

For that verse you said Muslims cannort be attacked by fellow Muslims. What about if Iran or Syria decided to launch a war killing many americans or foreigners. There was a war and you knew what Iran was doing was wrong. Would you still side with your Muslim bretheren then if they were doing something deeply immoral???

the protestors of the cartoons should have taken in consideration that nobody should harmed, they could have protested without the burning and stuff.
i strongly agree with you about the infidel issue, i mean we are all humans and daughters and sons of adam and eve. i don't think that islam or christainity (the two religions i have info about) encourages hatred towards each other.
there is a verse in the quran where it says that muslims should only fight when they are attacked....
besides i don't think that syria or iran are able to kill or have a war!

however, i think that every country has the right to own what other countries own...

i know that i haven't answered your questions but hope it is fulfilling till moath comes back

So would you say from a Islamic point of view that the protests were a severe overreaction and that the riots were wrong. I have nothing against protests. Just violent or incitement to violence ones.

I'm glad we agree about the infidel issue. I find that intolerance however is a bigger issue on the Christian camp. In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews. If someone turn up to a Christian event that is against Christ then they are scoffed at. And even in America you see that religious are trying to force feed policies and beliefs on those that don't believe. Athiests are seen as evil and intolerant when we just want equality to believe and live like we want. I feel sorry for the Islamic community in america being victimised by the government and the a handful of intolerant people. Just like I feel the same resentment for the extreme Islamic governments like Iran and Syria. Or terrorist groups like Al Queda.

It is interesting that you say that the Koran says that Muslims should only fight if attacked. How does the Koran view jihad into this?

I wouldn't underestimate the poition of Iran or Syria. They just might surprise you and show a act of agression. They have before.

Thanks for your post.

[John]

Quote: In churches they are constantly talking about the evils of Islam and the Jews.

What churches?

I'm yet to experience this.