Political Crossfire Forums

Strawberry Fields · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 67

Mind you, I have not fully read the bible, nor am i a master in theology, But I understand the main message Jesus was trying convey I think. I'm 14, and from what I can see of what Jesus was saying, he was a man WAY ahead of his time. Now Didn't he say that the kingdom of heaven was smaller than a mustard seed? Maybe he meant that it is not a place but an ideal which all men should strive too, therefore creating heaven, if you follow his philosophy of love. I think he also said said something along the lines that the whole world needs to be Christian for salvation to come? Well maybe he meant if everyone subscribed to his philosophy of universal brotherhood, THEN salvation of humanity would come.

Those of you who are more oriented with the Bible please correct me if I made mistakes, I'm just stating a perspective from someone who wasn't brought up going to church, and maybe you guys would find it interesting. I hope I don't get flamed, I'm new to this place I don't know the general mood :-|

hemlock · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 23

Thats an interesting point. Maybe what Jesus meant by his teachings was that if we follow the golden rule and act as his teachings say then we create heaven here on earth.

Strawberry Fields · Joined: 15 Feb 2006 Posts: 67

Yay, a response, Also I don't know if this was true, but I remember watching the history channel one day saying that in the early days of Christianity there were Jewish Christians, regular Christians, and atheist Christians and stuff, but it formed into a religion.

hemlock · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 23

I'm sure there were many versions of a religion that was based on the same principals as there are today. I found something the other day that i thught was intresting. In the Quran it metions Jesus 97 times.

bubbleyumm · Joined: 16 Feb 2006 Posts: 13 Location: far far away

he was just some guy, who was put on earth, to die.
ta da.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject:

He was a Jewish Theologian both a clever and radical one, whom im beting had a bigger education than the gospels let on.

Theology is not philosophy.

demosthenes67 · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject:

if you haven't already, read The Da Vinci Code. that'll bring on a whole new wave of possibilities to your mind

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

demosthenes67 wrote: if you haven't already, read The Da Vinci Code. that'll bring on a whole new wave of possibilities to your mind

Gnostisim, nothing new.

Addison · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 126

Quote: Mind you, I have not fully read the bible, nor am i a master in theology, But I understand the main message Jesus was trying convey I think. I'm 14, and from what I can see of what Jesus was saying, he was a man WAY ahead of his time. Now Didn't he say that the kingdom of heaven was smaller than a mustard seed? Maybe he meant that it is not a place but an ideal which all men should strive too, therefore creating heaven, if you follow his philosophy of love. I think he also said said something along the lines that the whole world needs to be Christian for salvation to come? Well maybe he meant if everyone subscribed to his philosophy of universal brotherhood, THEN salvation of humanity would come.

The actual verse goes like this "Whoever has so much faith has could be contained within a mustard seed can say to a mountain 'Get up, and go forth' and it would go."
The verse in question has many parallels within the Bible about faith and it's power.

However there is a better quote, contained in the Gospel of St. Thomas (which is formally discredited by the Catholic church as 'heresy', but regarded as the closest thing to Jesus' actual words, as it was written in Aramaic, the language of Jesus.)
It goes: "Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is all around you."
The general message follows the original Hebrew beliefs of life after death, i.e., She'ol. She'ol translates as grave. The belief is that when we die, we die-- atleast until the Judgement day, and the coming to Armageddon, a place lost in Jerusalem which will be visited by the dark prophets and the four devils of the beasts directly before the Judgment Day, which will incite the coming up of ghosts to be judged.

Quote: f you haven't already, read The Da Vinci Code. that'll bring on a whole new wave of possibilities to your mind

Please do not cite "The Da Vinci Code" as a credible source. Dan Brown, the author, has been publically and authoritatively discredited by historians, theologians, and art experts in almost every aspect of his books. All I stumbled across when I read it was plot holes and ineloquent language. If you would really like me to, I can provide the credible sources, links, and quotes of experts who can disprove most of his works.

By the way, I'm new here, too.

If you would like to discuss any more religious or theological issues, please contact me or continue this thread.

Thanks.[/i]

imperatorxi · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 28

Not completely to the point of the post but Da Vinci Code was fiction and was intended as such. It was based loosely upon historical fact but thats as a basic premise but didn't draw its conclusions as fact... unless i'm wrong then the author was a fool for passing fiction off as truth.

On the original point. It is an interesting point... I like Christianity how it started and started disliking it after the Council of Nicea... and when the Pope became King of the Roman Catholic Church... I prefer Eastern Orthodoxy in the contemporary world.

Theology can be considered a branch of philosophy. Just like science back in the days of Newton or further back to Plato and Aristotle. Philosophy in the contemporary sense just makes me uneasy and annoyed. Philosophy started as a way by which to explain the world and theology was closely intertwined with it. It is an expansion of the contemporary term philosophy but it is a throwback to the much more noble roots when things were connected in a elegant system rather than the cut offs we create in our society. Science and philosophy are related people they share a common origin, and relation doesn't mean same thing.

Shape · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Earth

If he existed, he was an enlightened being.

Strawberry Fields wrote: Now Didn't he say that the kingdom of heaven was smaller than a mustard seed?

This is the penial gland, the third eye.

Hello to all, my first post here!!!!

scholar · Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 63

It seems to me that most of you on this thread are new to the site which makes me excited and interested in your comments. I am also new to this site. And, hopefully we can learn together.

I would like to thank the original poster of this message. I, almost, agree with you completely. There are a lot of concepts that Jesus teaches that could be regarded as philosophy. I think you outlook on the "brotherhood of manking" should be accepted more by the individuals of our earth.

I would also like to thank Addison for the clarification of the Scripture. I am studying to become a minister (by the way, I'm young too, 17) and I enjoy when people have knowledge of the Bible.

I would love to continue to discuss this issue, but it seems as if we are all on the same page (which is GREAT)

Oh yeah, Shape, there is historical evidence supported by most notable historians that Jesus was an actual person. Evidence has been presented by even respected and accepted mainstream news magazines (i.e., Newsweek and Time)

the Da Vince Code is incorrect and has been labeled as such. It is an interesting read for the imagination, but not to be taken seriously.

Shape · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Earth

scholar wrote:
Oh yeah, Shape, there is historical evidence supported by most notable historians that Jesus was an actual person. Evidence has been presented by even respected and accepted mainstream news magazines (i.e., Newsweek and Time)

the Da Vince Code is incorrect and has been labeled as such. It is an interesting read for the imagination, but not to be taken seriously.

I don't doubt his existence, I just never have seen or spoken to him in person.

The Da Vinci Code was a fictional novel no?

scholar · Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 63

Thank you for the clarification of the existence of Jesus. I would assume that you are saying, without a reasonable doubt that He was an enlightened person.

And, yes the Da Vince Code was a "fictional" novel. Whether it was intended to be or not. You don't agree?

Shape · Joined: 08 Mar 2006 Posts: 17 Location: Earth

scholar wrote: Thank you for the clarification of the existence of Jesus. I would assume that you are saying, without a reasonable doubt that He was an enlightened person.

And, yes the Da Vince Code was a "fictional" novel. Whether it was intended to be or not. You don't agree?

Yes and yes! :-D

scholar · Joined: 07 Mar 2006 Posts: 63

Really quickly, I want to invite you to check out a struggling forum. It was originally set up to be a smaller and supplemental forum for larger ones like this. A friend of mine started it and after recreating it, it has low, very low, participation. If you could check it out and respond and post new topics that would be great, thanks.

This invitation goes out to ALL intersested. The site is...

realtalk06.bravehost.com

Please reply and tell people so that we can have another outlet like this to let people ponder and discuss the important stuff in life.

abeyer · Joined: 08 Nov 2005 Posts: 23

Strawberry Fields wrote: Yay, a response, Also I don't know if this was true, but I remember watching the history channel one day saying that in the early days of Christianity there were Jewish Christians, regular Christians, and atheist Christians and stuff, but it formed into a religion.

That part is basically correct. In the early days there was very little structure to Christianity as a religion and each congregation had it's own version for the most part. Also Jesus was Jewish so it's natural for a Jewish sect to have followed him, along with those who believed him to be the son of god, and those who believe in no god but still follow his mesage.

I actually have a similar belief to you in him as a philosopher. There are things that we likely will never prove in life, like if he was from a virgin birth, or if he was divine. But his message about tolerance, and love for your fellow man is definite and worth listening to. He was undoubtedly centuries ahead of his time in terms of his outlook on life.

I personally don't trust the Roman Catholic story because it has been shown to have been used as a political tool by the Roman Empire when it was formed. They used Christianity to unite the Empire and for this purpose picked and chose what to include in the Bible and beliefs of Catholicism.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9373

Addison wrote: Quote: f you haven't already, read The Da Vinci Code. that'll bring on a whole new wave of possibilities to your mind

Please do not cite "The Da Vinci Code" as a credible source. Dan Brown, the author, has been publically and authoritatively discredited by historians, theologians, and art experts in almost every aspect of his books. All I stumbled across when I read it was plot holes and ineloquent language. If you would really like me to, I can provide the credible sources, links, and quotes of experts who can disprove most of his works.

By the way, I'm new here, too.

If you would like to discuss any more religious or theological issues, please contact me or continue this thread.

Thanks.[/i]

I don't think he was citing The DaVinci Code as a source. He was saying that the book is thought-provoking for the exploration of the theories it presents.

By the way, welcome to the boards.

The Ferryman · Joined: 19 Sep 2005 Posts: 1518

Jesus was a social worker.

Cato · Joined: 28 Jul 2004 Posts: 1274 Location: Ottawa, ON

Jesus, a philosopher? Perhaps.

Mind, what we know about Jesus 'the man' is negligible, and to extract him from Christian tradition, well, impossible. In all likelihood, it was actually the contributions of such figures as Paul that built his profundity as a figure. To be honest, I don't think Jesus was necessarily a profound man per se, just the right man in the right place at the right time. His views, if exegesis is of any help to us, weren't anything extremely novel for his time. What would have been novel about Jesus, and subsequently what lent to the rise of his movement, was what came after his death -- that is, the shift in messianic expectations from a living, conquering political savior, to a spiritual savior. According to Paul, Jesus' function was to 'save' humanity from her commitment to the Torah, that is, to transform Judaism from an orthopraxical (correct practice) to an orthodoxical (correct belief) movement. But, instead of transforming Judaism, he actually engendered an entirely new religion -- probably not by intention. Jesus would only become deified at the councils of Nicaea in 325 and 381 A.D.

You see, I choose to see 'Jesus' as a religious tradition, and not so much as a historical man. The tradition built him into something larger than life. I think he (the man) was probably just the size of life, if not smaller :}

Strawberry Fields wrote: Now Didn't he say that the kingdom of heaven was smaller than a mustard seed? Maybe he meant that it is not a place but an ideal which all men should strive too, therefore creating heaven, if you follow his philosophy of love. I think he also said said something along the lines that the whole world needs to be Christian for salvation to come? Well maybe he meant if everyone subscribed to his philosophy of universal brotherhood, THEN salvation of humanity would come.

Neat -- but by all means an ambitious interpretation. Given the ethos of Jesus' culture -- he probably wasn't as proto-liberal as you make him out to be. In any case, when on shaky ground, it's best to tread tentatively.

((PS: I've boycotted the Da Vinci Code, join me! My argument? I'm a presumptuous, cynical person, and you should be too. hehe))