Political Crossfire Forums

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

sgtshortness wrote: Partial Birth Abortions is sick, of course. Is it even legal?
"Killer Bill" Clinton twice vetoed congressional bills outlawing PBA's while serving as your humble presidential servant.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

steen wrote: sgtshortness wrote: It's late and I won't argue now, but joe, please stop double/triple/quad+ posting. That's the benefit of having him on ignore. The posts don't even show. :lol:
We are certainly not going to ignore your posts, Mr. Steen, nor hold you unaccountable for the current abortion carnage.

joe christian · Joined: 27 Feb 2006 Posts: 282

steen wrote: Promise, could you have your posts be less rambling and with a clear theme? This was all over the place, and it seems pointless to try to correct the many dozens of mistakes and misrepresentations you spewed.
Rather does it seem that you are unable to present any rational arguments contradicting or pointing out the "dozens of mistakes and misrepresentations" which you perceived in your fertile imagination.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

A Promise Kept wrote: At least my post is based on fact and not histrionics as you so blatantly put it. As far as I could see by a glance, it was ramblings and misrepresentations.

Quote: I have not heard any other reason for your supporting abortion except its the woman's right. That's all the argument I need.

Quote: If your so pro-choice how come you keep ignoring the facts that women are put in danger when it comes to abortions? Ah, THIS is where pro-life misrepresentations and lies come in. Pro-lifers lie and claim that mortality is high from abortion or higher than from giving birth. Pro-lifers lie and claim that it is a significant cause of sterility or emotional distress. Pro-lifers lie and claim it causes breast cancer. Pro-lifers spew a lot of lies about this, lies that have been solidly proven false by scientific evidence and consensus, consensus and evidence which has been provided several times on this forum. Yet, pro-lifers go right on ahead spewing the same lies that were proven false.

So we ignore nothing. Pro-lifers ignore scientific facts for the sake of lying scare mongering and hate mongering.

Quote: Do you think women should choose when she does not no all the facts? Her choice should be based on facts rather than pro-life incessant lies.

Quote: You think women should blindly enter an abortion clinic without knowing the alternatives? She doesn't.

Quote: Your lack of compassion for the woman's safety is easy to see. bwahaha, keep up your lies.

Quote: So choice outweighs safety? She gets all the REAL and factual information and makes up her own choice.

Quote: Oh and do you think all abortions are successful in the sense that they kill the baby? No abortion kills a baby, your emotional histrionics and deceptive, revisionist linguistic hyperbole none withstanding.

Quote: Some abortions do not work and leave the mother to deliver a live baby instead of what she thought would be a dead baby. Since the abortionist does not want to be legally accountable and possibly sued by the mother for wasting her money, the abortionist is likely to drown the baby in water, suffocate it, or snap its neck. Another lie.

Quote: And yes partial birth abortions are legal. There is no such thing. This is another deceptive pro-life misrepresentation of the D&X procedure.

Quote: In fact, the president is trying to ban it, but the pro-choicers are saying its a violation of Roe v Wade, which we all know is a hypocritical case. More "just because I say so" ramblings.

Quote: Sorry about the rambling, I worked on that post all night. The clear theme was abortions are harmful to the woman A deceptive and misrepresented theme, yes.

Quote: and that abortion clinics can easily take advantage of the ignorant. I clearly made some valid points that you can not disprove. Nope.

Quote: I would appreciate an answer for my posts ( I have seen that histrionics do not work so disregard all my othe posts besides this one and the previous). I answered all of your posts. The previous post is still to rambling. That was my point. Pick 1 or 2 things and provide specific to-the-point arguments without the emotional hyperbole, and I will get it the close eval. But please be sure of what you claim as facts. I am sick and tired of plowing through falsehood after falsehood in pro-life posts. I would suggest you verify your claims with info from something other than pro-life sites.

spearsy23 · Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 5633 Location: Fulton, Ks

Okay i'll try the rest.
A Promise Kept wrote: Joe Christian. JC. Jesus Christ. See the connection?
John Carney. Point being?

Quote: Anyway,
Ok first off, how did I ever say that all women want abortions.
you said it in a hypothetical, the hypothetical didn't make much sense. But you never said it would actually happen.

Quote: Of course there are women who want babies. I love how you Pro-Choicers keep coming back to the same thing. I read the whole thread twice and realized you keep coming back to pro-lifers want to enslave women.
I've never said that, i won't say nobody has, but i havent (i don't believe)

Quote: I don't see your cause as being global because you are accusing America as enslaving women. I bet you can't even name the countries that allow legal abortions.
No i can't and it doesn't really matter.

Quote: If you can then thats great. I've also noticed you think we want to punish women for their sins which is basing it on religion.
With names like Joe Christian, and talking about the killing of 'judeo-christian babies' it's hard not to think it's about religion.

Quote: Sex is fine. Have all the sex you want. Don't blame the citizens for the lack of sex education. Blame the government, the school board and the parents.
You pretty much just covered the citizens, when you said parents. Overall parents don't want their kids taught safe sex, and they want to think their children are the perfect angels.
Quote: Abstinence is effective but close-minded. People are still gonna have sex no matter how much you tell them not to partly because the media and Hollywood exaggerate and put the hype or curiosity in sex.
Abstinence when practiced is effective, unfortunately abstinence is rarely practiced. The teaching of abstinence is on the whole inaffective. As for Hollywood, they don't put th ehype or curiosity in sex, it's innate the vast majority of humans want sex.
Quote: Speaking of Hollywood, since they are obviously trying to push forth gay rights, how many movies are about abortion?
Hollywood is pushing for gay rights? What do you mean.

Quote: Is Hollywood in support of abortion?
How would i know? And by Hollywood do you mean the majority of people in the city support abortions or what?
Quote: Its amazing how you don't think the abortion patient is not a "slave" to the abortionist.
I'd avoid double negatives, makes it very confusing. I'll assume you meant that the abortion patien is a slave to the abortionist. In which case no more so than in any other operation.
Quote: The abortionist decides what procedure to use, when to do it, and whether he will give an abortion to someone who did not get consent from their parents (In the UK).
1st, the patient gets options and then decides themselves what procedure is best for them.
2nd, that happens with every surgery.
3rd, i live in the U.S.

Quote: Since the Roe vs. Wade case, Abortion technology has rarely improved. A metal rod with a loop called a currete? a pair of scissors that act as pliers called forceps? a vacuum? Is that the best they can come up with?
What more is needed? It gets the job done.
Quote: This shows how primitive the abortion practice is. Roe V Wade was over 30 years ago. So they've moved from a rusty hanger to a metal rod with a loop, A pair of scissors to a pair of scissors that act as pliers and a hollow tube vacuum which is supposed to suck up dirt to a vacuum that s*cks up human remains?
They use the same tools in other surgeries too.
Quote: Oh and those medicines and other means of abortion. The RU-486 drug seems to be doing what it is supposed to be doing, killing. Only its killing the mother and not the fetus from what they claim is septic shock.
Proof? In any case it's a side effect that the patient is warned of and then makes the decision.
Quote: The FDA was so hasty to approve the drug and it appears that the FDA compromised the approval process, perhaps at the urging of the Clinton administration.
It was done under the "Accelerated Approval of New Drugs for Serious or Life-threatening Illnesses." In order to do this, the FDA had to classify "the termination of an unwanted pregnancy" as "a serious condition." This designation allows the FDA to approve drugs that "could be harmful and ineffective" prematurely.
Proof? I have no knowledge about it.
Quote: This is unconscionable! A pregnancy is not an illness and the termination of one is not a serious condition. However, many unsuspecting women and girls are led to believe that, because the drug has been approved for use by the FDA, it is safe.
They are warned of the side effects, show me proof they weren't

Sorry i still haven't gotten it all, but it WAS a rather long post.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

Quote: That's all the argument I need. nOt if I say that the right to life superceded that woman right o kill her own babies.

Quote: won't say nobody has, but i havent (i don't believe)
steen has said it to me i belive the count is at 4 times..

Quote: Hollywood, they don't put th ehype or curiosity in sex, it's innate the vast majority of humans want sex. 8 of 10 movies all have some form of a sex scene, 9-10 movies engage in sexual innuendo. eg shrek

Quote: What more is needed? It gets the job done can you say cruel unusual and brutal?

Quote: Proof? In any case it's a side effect that the patient is warned of and then makes the decision.
you might think that something is wrong when people die from taking your drug.

Quote: She gets all the REAL and factual information and makes up her own choice.
yopu didnt answer the question.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Plodder wrote: Quote: That's all the argument I need. nOt if I say that the right to life superceded that woman right o kill her own babies. Nonsense. My argument is not dependent on your weird claims. My reason for supporting abortiosn remain the same regardless of all the irrelevant stuff you post.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Wow there are some amazing remarks on this thread. Anti abortionists just want women to suffer? What the hell country do you live in Saudi Arabia? Abortionists are absolutely insane. They keep refering to the unborn as hunks of flesh. As if they have no more value than a tumor. They are developing human lives, someones son or daughter, created by their parents through sexual reproduction. There is no other "hunk of flesh" that comes into existence in this manner. You dehumanize the unborn the same way the nazis dehumanize the jews. Its easier to slaughter a group of people if you do that isnt it?

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Could you tone down the hysterical rants a bit, please?

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

could you stop trolling your illegitimate and false reasonse for which you are for death of pre born people.

Conserv\Traditionalist · Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 125

Steen has said that by opposing abortion, I cause the enslaving of women by a "parasite" in the woman's body. Let us attempt logic in finding out who the real "enslaver(s)" are.

Most abortions are made as a result of a consensual act between a man and a woman. The consensual act of sex is known to have the "danger" of child-oops-I mean fetus conception.

Now let us apply logic:
The man and woman have sex, through sex conception occurs,
"a" + "b" = "c". "c" = "d".

conception produces the fetus, the fetus causes "enslavement."
"d" = "e". "e" = "g"

Conclusion: Men and women having sex causes enslavement.
"a"+"b"="g"

Turns out I'm not as much of an enslaver has the consenting pair are to
the female "carrier." I mearly wish for the woman to carryout the rest of
her self induced "biological indenture."

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Conserv\Traditionalist wrote: Most abortions are made as a result of a consensual act between a man and a woman. The consensual act of sex is known to have the "danger" of child-oops-I mean fetus conception. And an unwanted pregnancy faces the possibility of an abortion. SO what?

Quote: Now let us apply logic: Logic would be great. Why did you push sophistry instead?

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8999

ConservTraditionalist wrote: Steen has said that by opposing abortion, I cause the enslaving of women by a "parasite" in the woman's body. Let us attempt logic in finding out who the real "enslaver(s)" are.

Most abortions are made as a result of a consensual act between a man and a woman. The consensual act of sex is known to have the "danger" of child-oops-I mean fetus conception.

Now let us apply logic:
The man and woman have sex, through sex conception occurs,
"a" + "b" = "c". "c" = "d".

conception produces the fetus, the fetus causes "enslavement."
"d" = "e". "e" = "g"

Conclusion: Men and women having sex causes enslavement.
"a"+"b"="g"

Turns out I'm not as much of an enslaver has the consenting pair are to
the female "carrier." I mearly wish for the woman to carryout the rest of
her self induced "biological indenture."

The sexual relations of others is none of your, steen's, mine, or anyone else's business.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: The sexual relations of others is none of your, steen's, mine, or anyone else's business You say that as if were trying to control their sex lives. Ive seen you say this repeatedly so Im going to lay it out for you once and for all. While sex has a very relevent part in this debate , its not about controling sex. Its about protecting the million newly created lives that are destroyed every year in America.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8999

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: The sexual relations of others is none of your, steen's, mine, or anyone else's business You say that as if were trying to control their sex lives. Ive seen you say this repeatedly so Im going to lay it out for you once and for all. While sex has a very relevent part in this debate , its not about controling sex. Its about protecting the million newly created lives that are destroyed every year in America.

If the issue is not about sex, then why do you continually bring up the sexual relations of other individuals?

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: If the issue is not about sex, then why do you continually bring up the sexual relations of other individuals? Because sex is what creates the new life that people want to have the right to kill. It can not be seperated from this debate.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8999

AllAmericanMan wrote: Quote: If the issue is not about sex, then why do you continually bring up the sexual relations of other individuals? Because sex is what creates the new life that people want to have the right to kill. It can not be seperated from this debate.

If the issue is the "life" within the mother's womb, then leave the debate within the context of the mother's womb. The actions are create an embryo are not in question here. The sexual nature of two individuals is not the issue.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: If the issue is the "life" within the mother's womb, then leave the debate within the context of the mother's womb. The actions are create an embryo are not in question here. The sexual nature of two individuals is not the issue. If you cant see abortion as a debate about when a human becomes human than neither I nor anyone else can help you here.

LostSoul3412 · Joined: 10 Feb 2005 Posts: 8999

AllAmericanMan wrote: If you cant see abortion as a debate about when a human becomes human than neither I nor anyone else can help you here.

You can argue the point of conception without bringing the sexual relations/actions of others into the picture, if that is your claim. I would be happy to debate you on the point where a the potential life becomes the actual life, but I will not invade the privacy of others by debating the sexual relations of other individuals.

AllAmericanMan · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 3606

Quote: You can argue the point of conception without bringing the sexual relations/actions of others into the picture, if that is your claim. I would be happy to debate you on the point where a the potential life becomes the actual life, but I will not invade the privacy of others by debating the sexual relations of other individuals. Laughable. Were not debating the sexual relations of other individuals. I merely use the act in general as a refrence point and supporting argument to the fact that a new life has been created.