Political Crossfire Forums

[sgtshortness]

Oops, plunged a knife into my stomach. Not dead yet.. well I decided I don't want to die anymore.

Oops, I guess I was forced into suicide then.

[A Promise Kept]

Suppose you allowed every woman to choose, hypothetically. If every woman in the world decided to just have abortions everytime she got pregnant then there would be no new humans added into the population. So effectively that would eventually lead to the human race exstinction. It would upset the balance of diversity in the human population. Are you for a one race or gender being supreme over another? When someone has too much power, they tend to abuse it. The next thing you know the women want the men to be responsible for them getting pregnant and take legal action. The man is just as essential to a pregnancy as a woman. Without him there is not fertilization. Without her there is no egg or starting point. The man may not have to do as much for the baby as the woman does, but he still contributed to it and gives him some rights as the father. Do you believe that a woman has more or less power over men? Isn't that in it self, discrimination?
So are you willing to risk the future of the human population hypothetically in order to ensure that the woman has the right to choose. The lines got to be drawn somewhere.

Oh and not all abortions are by choice. Sorry to burst your bubble. Sometimes the mother is influenced by the father, her parents, friends, abortion clinics. Sometimes the mother is threatened to get an abortion by the father who says he will leave her, or the parents of the mother who say they will disown her. Some choice that is. Abortion clinics do not always tell the truth. Abortionists can misdiagnose or even lie to the patient to earn more money. So to think that the mother always has the right to choose is undeniably false.

[steen]

A Promise Kept wrote: Suppose you allowed every woman to choose, hypothetically. If every woman in the world decided to just have abortions everytime she got pregnant then there would be no new humans added into the population. So effectively that would eventually lead to the human race exstinction. And suppose every woman got pregnant every time she could and gave birth, then we would rapidly have over-population. Isn't that special, the extremes? Anyway, are you saying that women must be forced to give birth so the human species can survive? Thta truly would be slavery.

Quote: .... (histrionics deleted) So are you willing to risk the future of the human population hypothetically in order to ensure that the woman has the right to choose. Sure.

Quote: The lines got to be drawn somewhere. And they already are, at her having the right to control her own body.

Quote: Oh and not all abortions are by choice. Sorry to burst your bubble. Sometimes the mother is influenced by the father, her parents, friends, abortion clinics. She makes the choice. But I am curious about your false claim that the clinic is influencing her.

Quote: Sometimes the mother is threatened to get an abortion by the father who says he will leave her, or the parents of the mother who say they will disown her. Some choice that is. Yes, women need to be even MORE empovered so such things don't happen. I vote for a stipend of 3000/month during pregnancy and then 1000/month afterwards. that would fix a lot of these problems.

Quote: Abortion clinics do not always tell the truth. A, a "just because I say so" postulation.

Quote: Abortionists can misdiagnose or even lie to the patient to earn more money. Ah, another false belief deceptively presented as "fact." How pro-life of you.

[sgtshortness]

I love how you (a promise kept) give us the example that women would always choose abortions.

Except it wouldn't happen. Women actually want babies sometimes.

And then you go on to say that women actually want to keep the baby and other people are influencng her to get the abortion. Lovely.

And if the father would leave her if she didn't get an abortion, he's not that great of a guy is he? And parents threatening abortions is sick. I'd make it illegal. You still don't address the other abortions that are of free will.

And things about influencing decisions... of course those close to you influence your decisions. But when you boil it all down, it's the woman's ultimate choice to drive to the abortion clinic.

[joe christian]

The Underground wrote: joe christian wrote: All abortions which are performed without the father's consent are forced.

You don't understand the concept of "forced" do you? How is a mother who gets an abortion forced into it? You say it, but you don't appear to be able to back it up.
American fathers are forced to tolerate abortions whether they want their own children aborted or not.

The founding fathers would never have tolerated abortionists killing their children without their knowledge and consent.

You seem to be obsessed with women's rights. Are you a man?

[joe christian]

sgtshortness wrote: If you mean forced upon the father in that "his" fetus is killed, then yes it is.

If you mean forced as in the woman herself is forced to get the abortion, then no.

The woman is only persuaded to get an abortion.

The husband, father or man, has no choice in the matter of whether his child shall live or die.

Only the male or female abortionist has the ultimate choice, according to the SCOTUS.

Such is the state of human life in America at the present time.

No wonder the Muslims laugh at the US.

[joe christian]

A Promise Kept wrote: Actually a woman is forced to get an abortion. If she decides to get an abortion and then during the abortion decides to CHANGE her mind, she can't. After the first day of the operation (total of 2 days) she can't back out. So if she doesn't want an abortion, she can't change the fact that she is getting an abortion. She has to live with it.
It seems that once women give themselves up to, and are in the clutches of, the pro-abortionist's mentality, there is no going back or choice left to them.

Some people seem to prefer a human slave mentality, it seems, since choosing to be free of evil and destructive thoughts takes some sort of religious inspiration in order to overcome the human tendency towards rationalism, desparation and nihilism.

[joe christian]

sgtshortness wrote: She chose to get the abortion by walking in the first day.
She only walked into the abortion chambers after being persuaded by liberal secularists, feminists and pro-abortionists that she had the "right" to have her boyfriend or husband's child butchered and slaughtered in atheistic child-killing abortion chambers.

No Judeo-Christian or Islamic women in her right mind would listen to such atheistic and secular abortionist propaganda in the first place.

Witchcraft is alive and well in the USA. Instead of burning witches, Americans now kill their babies instead.

[joe christian]

steen wrote: A Promise Kept wrote: Actually a woman is forced to get an abortion. If she decides to get an abortion and then during the abortion decides to CHANGE her mind, she can't. After the first day of the operation (total of 2 days) she can't back out. So if she doesn't want an abortion, she can't change the fact that she is getting an abortion. She has to live with it. What 2 days are you talking about? She shows up, gets the D&C and goes home. Do you KNOW what the typical abortion is like? Sure sounds like you never contemplated what abortions actually are, normally.
We know what the results look like.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm3.htm

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion2.htm

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

http://blackgenocide.org/photos.html

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-4-photos.html

http://www.christiangallery.com/smdead.html

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/

http://www.abortiontv.com/Pics/AbortionPicturesWarning.htm

[spearsy23]

joe christian wrote: steen wrote: A Promise Kept wrote: Actually a woman is forced to get an abortion. If she decides to get an abortion and then during the abortion decides to CHANGE her mind, she can't. After the first day of the operation (total of 2 days) she can't back out. So if she doesn't want an abortion, she can't change the fact that she is getting an abortion. She has to live with it. What 2 days are you talking about? She shows up, gets the D&C and goes home. Do you KNOW what the typical abortion is like? Sure sounds like you never contemplated what abortions actually are, normally.
We know what the results look like.

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/mm3.htm

http://www.holylamb.com/abortion2.htm

http://www.100abortionpictures.com/Aborted_Baby_Pictures_Abortion_Photos/

http://blackgenocide.org/photos.html

http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-4-photos.html

http://www.christiangallery.com/smdead.html

http://www.mttu.com/abort-pics/

http://www.abortiontv.com/Pics/AbortionPicturesWarning.htm

OH NOES, MORE ABORTION PHOTOS. HOW WILL WE EVER ARGUE WITH YOUR SUPERIOR LOGIC.

Please, would you at least TRY and make a coherent argument without the 'because i said so' and the 'emotional appeal' arguments. Everything that is bloody should be done away with, no more surgeries NONE they're bloody aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[sgtshortness]

It's late and I won't argue now, but joe, please stop double/triple/quad+ posting.

[A Promise Kept]

Joe Christian. JC. Jesus Christ. See the connection?

Anyway,
Ok first off, how did I ever say that all women want abortions. I would like the quote please. Don't accuse people without evidence. Inferencing is dangerous. Of course there are women who want babies. I love how you Pro-Choicers keep coming back to the same thing. I read the whole thread twice and realized you keep coming back to pro-lifers want to enslave women. I don't see your cause as being global because you are accusing America as enslaving women. I bet you can't even name the countries that allow legal abortions. If you can then thats great. I've also noticed you think we want to punish women for their sins which is basing it on religion. Sex is fine. Have all the sex you want. Don't blame the citizens for the lack of sex education. Blame the government, the school board and the parents. Abstinence is effective but close-minded. People are still gonna have sex no matter how much you tell them not to partly because the media and Hollywood exaggerate and put the hype or curiosity in sex. Speaking of Hollywood, since they are obviously trying to push forth gay rights, how many movies are about abortion? Is Hollywood in support of abortion? Its amazing how you don't think the abortion patient is not a "slave" to the abortionist. The abortionist decides what procedure to use, when to do it, and whether he will give an abortion to someone who did not get consent from their parents (In the UK).

Since the Roe vs. Wade case, Abortion technology has rarely improved. A metal rod with a loop called a currete? a pair of scissors that act as pliers called forceps? a vacuum? Is that the best they can come up with? This shows how primitive the abortion practice is. Roe V Wade was over 30 years ago. So they've moved from a rusty hanger to a metal rod with a loop, A pair of scissors to a pair of scissors that act as pliers and a hollow tube vacuum which is supposed to suck up dirt to a vacuum that s*cks up human remains? Oh and those medicines and other means of abortion. The RU-486 drug seems to be doing what it is supposed to be doing, killing. Only its killing the mother and not the fetus from what they claim is septic shock. The FDA was so hasty to approve the drug and it appears that the FDA compromised the approval process, perhaps at the urging of the Clinton administration.
It was done under the "Accelerated Approval of New Drugs for Serious or Life-threatening Illnesses." In order to do this, the FDA had to classify "the termination of an unwanted pregnancy" as "a serious condition." This designation allows the FDA to approve drugs that "could be harmful and ineffective" prematurely.
This is unconscionable! A pregnancy is not an illness and the termination of one is not a serious condition. However, many unsuspecting women and girls are led to believe that, because the drug has been approved for use by the FDA, it is safe.
Furthermore, RU-486 is so ineffective when used alone, the FDA approved it for use with misoprostol, a prostaglandin that causes contractions but was developed as an ulcer drug. Misoprostol is marketed under the name Cytotec. Searle, the company that manufactures Cytotec, was so outraged that it issued a letter to physicians saying that this was an off-label use for this drug that was never tested or intended for the induction of labor or abortion. In other words, any physician who uses Cytotec for these purposes does so at great risk.
There are other indications that the FDA further manipulated the process. Dr. Mark Louviere, an Iowa physician, reported that he rendered emergency treatment to a woman who was a participant in the trials. He came forward after reading a press report that there were "no complications among the 238 women participants" in his state. Dr. Louviere told the Waterloo Courier, "If near death due to the loss of half of one's blood volume, surgery and a transfusion of four units of blood do not qualify as a complication, I don't know what does."
And what about the possibility of an overdose on abortion medicines? Wouldn't that cause deathly harm to the mother if the mother is confused on what amount to take?

Another harmful abortion practice is the saline abortion or salt poisoning. It consists of the abortionist sticking a needle into the woman's chest and hoping that it hits the baby and not her. The practice is so dangerous that it has been banned in Sweden and Japan.
Still saying abortion is as safe as you think it is? The reason less abortions are recorded as fatalities caused from the abortion than pregnancies is because the abortion clinics can just say it was caused by some other thing. Remember there are hardly any witnesses to an abortion, so whose gonna know?

Since its become useless to debate with you poor choicers about when a fetus is considered a human and that life does begin at conception here are some textbooks and doctors and scientists that would agree that conception is the beginning of life in any organism. If you believe in evolution, Abortion is violating Darwin's law. Survival of the Fittest. Only the strong survive? Nope both the weak and strong make no difference to an abortionist.
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html

Proof that abortionists are profiting more than they should. Oh and pro-lifers happen to be getting no profit out of this whatsoever.
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-E-1-profit.html

This website is an abortion clinic website. It shows no indication of the risks involved. It only shows the symptoms of pregnancy. Plus it says it uses a sonogram. Abortion clinics actually prefer the patient not to see the sonogram for fear they will change their mind, showing that abortion clinics are only in it for the money and do not care what their patient thinks.
http://www.real-choices.com/index.cfm/PageID/168/index.html

You said that us pro-lifers should examine the case of Roe vs. Wade. Apparently the protagonist meaning Jane Roe (her actual name is Norma McCorvey) feels alittle different now. Read the whole thing.
http://www.abortiontv.com/Words/JaneRoe.htm

Before you call pro-lifers hypocrites, call one of your own because she's the reason we are even having this debate. Apparently you pro-choice people forgot the one person that started it all. You could have had her on tv commercials and such advocating her stand on abortion. But now its too late. She has "seen the light" as she is quoted. That is why she established Roe No More Organization. She specifically said that she lied about being raped, was used, and that she was given an award that she does not deserve in her mind.

Abortion clinics have been covering their asses for so long its pathetic. Abortion clinics have even gone as far as doing things like requesting that the ambulance sirens and lights be turned off for a failed abortion resulting in death of the mother and ruled it a natural death rather than an accidental death.
http://www.clinicworker.com/WhatToReport.html

Another thing is the Planned Parenthood is preying off the Girl Scouts Association. Very sad. The girl scouts are told that they can get a merit badge for attending a Planned Parenthood lecture. They are given a reward for attending an abortion lecture when most of them are no older than 10 years old. I don't know about you but isn't that a little young for kids to be thinking about sex? wait until your a teen at least. Or do you think people should have sex at a very young age? Plus the founder of Planned Parenthood was in favor of "cleansing" the human race. How in the world do they explain the history of Planned Parenthood beginning without it sounding supremacist. Abortion is not safe and is profiting off everyone. Oh and one more thing. Pro-Lifers have abortion support sites. They support the woman after abortions and do more than the abortionists themselves who don't say anything to the woman and just lay them on the table. One more question for you poor-choicers. How do you feel about Partial Birth Abortions. The baby is definitely alive for that. There were 2000 abortion clinics and now there are only 700. Does that give you clue of how unsafe abortions really are?

[sgtshortness]

The hypothetical thing you gave us was "If every woman in the world decided to just have abortions everytime she got pregnant."

Thanks for the links. It looks like we've got to regulate abortion clinics more heavily and ban unsafe abortion practices.

I for one don't associate myself with "abortion support sites." Partial Birth Abortions is sick, of course. Is it even legal?

[steen]

sgtshortness wrote: It's late and I won't argue now, but joe, please stop double/triple/quad+ posting. That's the benefit of having him on ignore. The posts don't even show. :lol:

[steen]

Promise, could you have your posts be less rambling and with a clear theme? This was all over the place, and it seems pointless to try to correct the many dozens of mistakes and misrepresentations you spewed.

[A Promise Kept]

At least my post is based on fact and not histrionics as you so blatantly put it. I have not heard any other reason for your supporting abortion except its the woman's right. If your so pro-choice how come you keep ignoring the facts that women are put in danger when it comes to abortions? Do you think women should choose when she does not no all the facts? You think women should blindly enter an abortion clinic without knowing the alternatives? Your lack of compassion for the woman's safety is easy to see. So choice outweighs safety? Oh and do you think all abortions are successful in the sense that they kill the baby? Some abortions do not work and leave the mother to deliver a live baby instead of what she thought would be a dead baby. Since the abortionist does not want to be legally accountable and possibly sued by the mother for wasting her money, the abortionist is likely to drown the baby in water, suffocate it, or snap its neck. And yes partial birth abortions are legal. In fact, the president is trying to ban it, but the pro-choicers are saying its a violation of Roe v Wade, which we all know is a hypocritical case.

Sorry about the rambling, I worked on that post all night. The clear theme was abortions are harmful to the woman and that abortion clinics can easily take advantage of the ignorant. I clearly made some valid points that you can not disprove.

I would appreciate an answer for my posts ( I have seen that histrionics do not work so disregard all my othe posts besides this one and the previous). I answered all of your posts.

[spearsy23]

Okay right now i don't have the time or the inclination to deal with your whole post so i'll just take the links.

A Promise Kept wrote:
Since its become useless to debate with you poor choicers about when a fetus is considered a human and that life does begin at conception here are some textbooks and doctors and scientists that would agree that conception is the beginning of life in any organism. If you believe in evolution, Abortion is violating Darwin's law. Survival of the Fittest. Only the strong survive? Nope both the weak and strong make no difference to an abortionist.
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-1-medical.html
There are many links showing the opposite, Life DOES begin at contraception however to use steen's argument it is 'life' not 'a life' for lack of sentience.

Quote: Proof that abortionists are profiting more than they should. Oh and pro-lifers happen to be getting no profit out of this whatsoever.
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-E-1-profit.html
More than they should? they are paid to provide a service, and that's what they do. Pro-choicers aren't making any profit either, just the abortionist and hospitals.

Quote: This website is an abortion clinic website. It shows no indication of the risks involved. It only shows the symptoms of pregnancy. Plus it says it uses a sonogram. Abortion clinics actually prefer the patient not to see the sonogram for fear they will change their mind, showing that abortion clinics are only in it for the money and do not care what their patient thinks.
http://www.real-choices.com/index.cfm/PageID/168/index.html
It says to talk to the staff.

Quote: You said that us pro-lifers should examine the case of Roe vs. Wade. Apparently the protagonist meaning Jane Roe (her actual name is Norma McCorvey) feels alittle different now. Read the whole thing.
http://www.abortiontv.com/Words/JaneRoe.htm
The fact is she WAS used but the decision on the case is still what's important and she is not.

Quote: Before you call pro-lifers hypocrites, call one of your own because she's the reason we are even having this debate.
I try to refrain from calling pro-lifers hypocrites, however she is now a pro-life therefore by calling her a hypocrite i would be calling a pro-life a hypocrite.

Quote: Apparently you pro-choice people forgot the one person that started it all. You could have had her on tv commercials and such advocating her stand on abortion. But now its too late. She has "seen the light" as she is quoted. That is why she established Roe No More Organization.
As i said she is insigniificant. The courts decision is what is important.

Quote: She specifically said that she lied about being raped, was used, and that she was given an award that she does not deserve in her mind.
good for her.

Quote: Abortion clinics have been covering their asses for so long its pathetic. Abortion clinics have even gone as far as doing things like requesting that the ambulance sirens and lights be turned off for a failed abortion resulting in death of the mother and ruled it a natural death rather than an accidental death.
http://www.clinicworker.com/WhatToReport.html
All i found were lists of things that would be illegal to do.

Quote: How do you feel about partial birth abortions? The baby is definitely alive for that. I believe they should be illegal. Aren't they illegal?

Quote: There were 2000 abortion clinics and now there are only 700. Does that give you clue of how unsafe abortions really are?
No it gives me a clue as to how fewer women are getting abortions, which is a good thing.

[joe christian]

The Underground wrote: OH NOES, MORE ABORTION PHOTOS. HOW WILL WE EVER ARGUE WITH YOUR SUPERIOR LOGIC.
There is nothing "logical" about killing babies.

Quote: Please, would you at least TRY and make a coherent argument without the 'because i said so' and the 'emotional appeal' arguments.
There are no coherent arguments for killing Judeo-Christian babies. There are only humanistic and secular judicial rationalizations for perverting the US Constitution, the laws of nature and the laws of nature's God.

Quote: Everything that is bloody should be done away with, no more surgeries NONE they're bloody aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.
Bloody surgeries done for the benefit, health and life of the patient are part of the Hippocratic Oath.

Bloody surgeries done for the sole purpose of killing Judeo-Christian babies are medically unethical, socially destructive of the Judeo-Christian population, and highly illogical and unreasonable by any ethical or moral standards outside of pagan and atheistic belief systems.

[joe christian]

sgtshortness wrote: It's late and I won't argue now, but joe, please stop double/triple/quad+ posting.
Fortunately, there are a few other posters on the forum with whom I am interacting with other than yourself. I only reply to each post with one response, so I don't know what you are complaining about, just because you don't respond to other poster equally.

[joe christian]

A Promise Kept wrote: Joe Christian. JC. Jesus Christ. See the connection?
Don't forget Judeo-Christian.

Quote: How do you feel about Partial Birth Abortions. The baby is definitely alive for that.
Since the baby's full body is alive and well outside of the mother's body when it's brains are s*cked out in PBA's, abortionists really are committing bloody murder when they kill Judeo-Christian babies that way.

Blood money and blood libel is their only reward and just compensation on earth.