Political Crossfire Forums

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

I am trying to get some idea of what motivates your stand on this issue. I don't want to discuss whether it is right or not, so don't make claims, just tell me where your motivation on your stand comes from.

If you have another motivation for your stand feel free to mention it, hopefully I have covered most of them.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

Selfish_Meme wrote: I am trying to get some idea of what motivates your stand on this issue. I don't want to discuss whether it is right or not, so don't make claims, just tell me where your motivation on your stand comes from.

If you have another motivation for your stand feel free to mention it, hopefully I have covered most of them.

I think for many people it is not one but a combination of more than one.

For me it begins with science and self doubt.

Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence. Everything beyond that point is subjective philosophical speculation and relativism. So I for one am unwilling to define human life other than as it is defined by objective science.

So just as with the death penalty if I am guessing about whether I am taking a human life or speculating that even though the life I am taking is both alive an human but not yet a "person" I think we ought to go out of way to protect the human life while we argue about the philosophy instead of the other way around.

whatnotwho · Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 554

I'm pro life but the main issue for me is the lack of responsibility for one's actions. With all the means of birth control available, it's irresponsible for anyone to become pregnant who doesn't choose to.
Abortion is just another tool to fix the ignorance of both sexes and fuels the idea with our youth that sex is just a social game we can play with no consequences.

The Grandmaster

Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

I was pro choice up until just about 4 months ago, or so... Then I saw those pictures, and started really listening to the other side. I found out Norma McCorvey is now Pro Life..

Kinda just did me in. Now I'm pro life.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Speaking of which I am assuming I will not be seeing those links you were going to pass along?

You make my point for me. Other Than the point of conception where we KNOW that a new entity is created all other points in human development require speculation. Without conception there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

The Grandmaster

Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Speaking of which I am assuming I will not be seeing those links you were going to pass along?

You make my point for me. Other Than the point of conception where we KNOW that a new entity is created all other points in human development require speculation. Without conception there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

Without an egg and sperm, there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Speaking of which I am assuming I will not be seeing those links you were going to pass along?

You make my point for me. Other Than the point of conception where we KNOW that a new entity is created all other points in human development require speculation. Without conception there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

Without an egg and sperm, there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

I don't have to explain how babies are made do I? An egg is NOT a developing human nor is a sperm, and neither can develop into anything alone.

But when a mommy and a daddy love one another................ developing human.

The Grandmaster

Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Speaking of which I am assuming I will not be seeing those links you were going to pass along?

You make my point for me. Other Than the point of conception where we KNOW that a new entity is created all other points in human development require speculation. Without conception there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

Without an egg and sperm, there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

I don't have to explain how babies are made do I?

It's been a while since the ol' Grandmaster had a peice, so you might. Well actually, hasn't been that long, so I might be ok.

Gilbert1908 wrote: An egg is NOT a developing human nor is a sperm, and neither can develop into anything alone.

But when a mommy and a daddy love one another................ developing human.

See my post on the other thread. What makes a human being a human being? The set of criterion that makes it so is different depending upon what authority is appealed to. To say conception is the beginning because conception is the beginning is, as I said in the other thread, circular. It must be the beginning because of some reason, and that reason being without it, no development could happen is not enough, because the same could be said of any point in a continuum that is necessary for a human to exist.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Gilbert1908 wrote:
Scientifically there is only one event at which we KNOW that human life comes into existence.

No there isn't Gilbert. We've been over this in all seriousness at least 25 times and you know it. Your dogmatic unwillingness to accept it notwithstanding, there is not A point in which we KNOW that a human life comes into existence. You know we've been over this. You even admitted the possibility of another point as well.

Speaking of which I am assuming I will not be seeing those links you were going to pass along?

You make my point for me. Other Than the point of conception where we KNOW that a new entity is created all other points in human development require speculation. Without conception there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

Without an egg and sperm, there simply are no other points of development to debate are there?

I don't have to explain how babies are made do I?

It's been a while since the ol' Grandmaster had a peice, so you might. Well actually, hasn't been that long, so I might be ok.

Gilbert1908 wrote: An egg is NOT a developing human nor is a sperm, and neither can develop into anything alone.

But when a mommy and a daddy love one another................ developing human.

See my post on the other thread. What makes a human being a human being? The set of criterion that makes it so is different depending upon what authority is appealed to. To say conception is the beginning because conception is the beginning is, as I said in the other thread, circular. It must be the beginning because of some reason, and that reason being without it, no development could happen is not enough, because the same could be said of any point in a continuum that is necessary for a human to exist.

You GM you can be darned funny sometimes and this is one of those times.

As to part two, it is not circular at all, since we are not talking about the creation of the human race but of a single human life. And even though it has been a while for you, that takes place ONLY when one event is completed and two seperate and distinct things somehow become a single distinct developing human life.

It is simply undeniable that a developing human life does not exist until coneption.

But you will continue to find some reasoning which you feel says the opposite so I refer you to my favorite saying below. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Yep. This has nothing to do with semantics, "personhood" or what IT is.... It is still a human, and it still had the right to a fighting chance at life.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Nothing

Your subjective morals are yours, and not to be forced on another, period...

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Thats my point, EH, that ones subjective morals should not be forced onto anothers. The other in question is the preborn human. Just because YOU think its okay, doesnt mean that THEY will.

alclarkey · Joined: 12 Jul 2005 Posts: 1809

Sailor Moon wrote: I was pro choice up until just about 4 months ago, or so... Then I saw those pictures, and started really listening to the other side. I found out Norma McCorvey is now Pro Life..

Kinda just did me in. Now I'm pro life.

Welcome to the light side. :)

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

:thrhj:

ieatfood · Joined: 28 Mar 2005 Posts: 6505

EugenicHegemony wrote: Nothing

Your subjective morals are yours, and not to be forced on another, period...

Maybe I think that shooting people I don't like is morally OK. You might not. Please don't force your subjective morals onto me by forcing me not to kill others.

All morals are subjective. And we force them onto each other all the time.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Sailor Moon wrote: Thats my point, EH, that ones subjective morals should not be forced onto anothers. The other in question is the preborn human. Just because YOU think its okay, doesnt mean that THEY will.

Noone has any right to force their subjective morals on another, and Jefferson said it best. Live by those common sense guidelines and we'll all live happier independent lives. You don't know what they think and a fetus isn't an independent entity as it's totally dependent on the host (woman) who's carrying it. It's not up to you to make that subjective moral decision, an ignorant parent or a court to force a woman to carry term. If you or another forced birther can't stand the idea of abortion then you never get one. It's as simple as that...

If you, and people such as you, keep pushing for an authoritarian forced breeding future then that's exactly what you'll get. I can see all the woman being hauled off, and arrested. Maybe their lover will spill the beans on her and turn her in, because if the lover knew and didn't report her to the proper Authoriti then he would be an accomplice to murder. The proper Authorti will bring the woman to a special clinic where they can test her in a forceful manner to see if she has done anything to her uterus. This is the future all you want?

The U.S. government also made sure that subjective religious morals are the main tenet of the Iraqi Constitution. Control is all that is in everyones future...

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

EugenicHegemony wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Thats my point, EH, that ones subjective morals should not be forced onto anothers. The other in question is the preborn human. Just because YOU think its okay, doesnt mean that THEY will.

Noone has any right to force their subjective morals on another, and Jefferson said it best. Live by those common sense guidelines and we'll all live happier independent lives. You don't know what they think and a fetus isn't an independent entity as it's totally dependent on the host (woman) who's carrying it. It's not up to you to make that subjective moral decision, an ignorant parent or a court to force a woman to carry term. If you or another forced birther can't stand the idea of abortion then you never get one. It's as simple as that...

Heres whats even more simple: people are not forced to get pregnant. Therefore, they are not forced to carry a child. I have had an abortion, you know. I hated it, and I was only pro choice because I was so defensive out of my own guilt. Furthermore, like I said before, just because its okay with an adult, doesnt mean its okay with the preborn human. Use common sense, just like you said.

Quote: If you, and people such as you, keep pushing for an authoritarian forced breeding future then that's exactly what you'll get. I can see all the woman being hauled off, and arrested. Maybe their lover will spill the beans on her and turn her in, because if the lover knew and didn't report her to the proper Authoriti then he would be an accomplice to murder. The proper Authorti will bring the woman to a special clinic where they can test her in a forceful manner to see if she has done anything to her uterus. This is the future all you want?

Actually, NOW youre discussing fetal rights, which is not the priority for most pro lifers. Actually the vast majority of us simply want the child to have a fighting chance at life. Dont bring fetal rights into this. Its preposterous, and it will NEVER happen, I can assure you. Youre sounding a little ... paranoid.. no offense, sweetie, but its never going to happen that way. Making abortion, or I reckon assisted abortion illegal, will not give fetuses rights. Thats just silly.

Quote: The U.S. government also made sure that subjective religious morals are the main tenet of the Iraqi Constitution. Control is all that is in everyones future...

Iraq needs some help in the morality department. Have some compassion, please. There are alot of lives at stake there. That doesnt mean its a religious thing, either. Why are you so hostile towards morality, anyways? I'm sorry, but I call em as I see em.

EugenicHegemony · Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 4658

Sailor Moon wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Thats my point, EH, that ones subjective morals should not be forced onto anothers. The other in question is the preborn human. Just because YOU think its okay, doesnt mean that THEY will.

Noone has any right to force their subjective morals on another, and Jefferson said it best. Live by those common sense guidelines and we'll all live happier independent lives. You don't know what they think and a fetus isn't an independent entity as it's totally dependent on the host (woman) who's carrying it. It's not up to you to make that subjective moral decision, an ignorant parent or a court to force a woman to carry term. If you or another forced birther can't stand the idea of abortion then you never get one. It's as simple as that...

Heres whats even more simple: people are not forced to get pregnant. Therefore, they are not forced to carry a child. I have had an abortion, you know. I hated it, and I was only pro choice because I was so defensive out of my own guilt. Furthermore, like I said before, just because its okay with an adult, doesnt mean its okay with the preborn human. Use common sense, just like you said.

Quote: If you, and people such as you, keep pushing for an authoritarian forced breeding future then that's exactly what you'll get. I can see all the woman being hauled off, and arrested. Maybe their lover will spill the beans on her and turn her in, because if the lover knew and didn't report her to the proper Authoriti then he would be an accomplice to murder. The proper Authorti will bring the woman to a special clinic where they can test her in a forceful manner to see if she has done anything to her uterus. This is the future all you want?

Actually, NOW youre discussing fetal rights, which is not the priority for most pro lifers. Actually the vast majority of us simply want the child to have a fighting chance at life. Dont bring fetal rights into this. Its preposterous, and it will NEVER happen, I can assure you. Youre sounding a little ... paranoid.. no offense, sweetie, but its never going to happen that way. Making abortion, or I reckon assisted abortion illegal, will not give fetuses rights. Thats just silly.

Quote: The U.S. government also made sure that subjective religious morals are the main tenet of the Iraqi Constitution. Control is all that is in everyones future...

Iraq needs some help in the morality department. Have some compassion, please. There are alot of lives at stake there. That doesnt mean its a religious thing, either. Why are you so hostile towards morality, anyways? I'm sorry, but I call em as I see em.

"Iraq needs help in the morality department", says you. Are you the dictator now?

Be pro life all you want and don't you dare force your subjective morals on another or that "paranoid" scenario will be the future. I'd like you to tell me what's "paranoid" about it. If you all get your way, and it's made collective authoritarian law then that's the reality you will have created; not paranoia...

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

EugenicHegemony wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Thats my point, EH, that ones subjective morals should not be forced onto anothers. The other in question is the preborn human. Just because YOU think its okay, doesnt mean that THEY will.

Noone has any right to force their subjective morals on another, and Jefferson said it best. Live by those common sense guidelines and we'll all live happier independent lives. You don't know what they think and a fetus isn't an independent entity as it's totally dependent on the host (woman) who's carrying it. It's not up to you to make that subjective moral decision, an ignorant parent or a court to force a woman to carry term. If you or another forced birther can't stand the idea of abortion then you never get one. It's as simple as that...

Heres whats even more simple: people are not forced to get pregnant. Therefore, they are not forced to carry a child. I have had an abortion, you know. I hated it, and I was only pro choice because I was so defensive out of my own guilt. Furthermore, like I said before, just because its okay with an adult, doesnt mean its okay with the preborn human. Use common sense, just like you said.

Quote: If you, and people such as you, keep pushing for an authoritarian forced breeding future then that's exactly what you'll get. I can see all the woman being hauled off, and arrested. Maybe their lover will spill the beans on her and turn her in, because if the lover knew and didn't report her to the proper Authoriti then he would be an accomplice to murder. The proper Authorti will bring the woman to a special clinic where they can test her in a forceful manner to see if she has done anything to her uterus. This is the future all you want?

Actually, NOW youre discussing fetal rights, which is not the priority for most pro lifers. Actually the vast majority of us simply want the child to have a fighting chance at life. Dont bring fetal rights into this. Its preposterous, and it will NEVER happen, I can assure you. Youre sounding a little ... paranoid.. no offense, sweetie, but its never going to happen that way. Making abortion, or I reckon assisted abortion illegal, will not give fetuses rights. Thats just silly.

Quote: The U.S. government also made sure that subjective religious morals are the main tenet of the Iraqi Constitution. Control is all that is in everyones future...

Iraq needs some help in the morality department. Have some compassion, please. There are alot of lives at stake there. That doesnt mean its a religious thing, either. Why are you so hostile towards morality, anyways? I'm sorry, but I call em as I see em.

"Iraq needs help in the morality department", says you. Are you the dictator now?

No- but there are plenty of them over there, who need to learn about human rights. Whos dictating Ever notice the voting system they have implemented? Gee!

Quote: Be pro life all you want and don't you dare force your subjective morals on another or that "paranoid" scenario will be the future. I'd like you to tell me what's "paranoid" about it. If you all get your way, and it's made collective authoritarian law then that's the reality you will have created; not paranoia...

Whats authoritaritan about outlawing assisted abortions, while denying fetus rights, therefore allowing womens autonomy ?(the freedom to continue to have abortions, or self induced miscarriages, just as long as theyre not caused by another person)

Yes, saying that this is totalitarian or dictative, is awful and totally off base, and.. in my opinion, utterly paranoid.