Political Crossfire Forums

[Showboat]

[16.67] And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

sounds like you boys can have a drink after all. :?

[Saracen]

That's reserved for Paradise...

[Showboat]

That chapter is talking about what Allah has created for us. It's talking about stuff on the Earth, clear as water.

[Saracen]

Well, in that case... this is another example of mistranslation. The "intoxication" here refers to the mundane pleasure of eating fruit.

[Showboat]

Like grapes from which you get wine? Strange choice of fruit if it doesn't mean getting drunk.

I bought a copy of the Koran the other day and have been reading it at night. It's very interesting. I sometimes find things that I think are rather contradictory though. Thus the occasional thread I start on here. Hope you don't mind.

There is another verse, I can't remember which, will check when I get home, that says that one mustn't be drunk at prayer. Does this not imply that one can be drunk at other times?

[Showboat]

I found some other translations of the same verse.

Yusuf Ali translation: And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.

Pickthall translation: And of the fruits of the date-palm, and grapes, whence ye derive strong drink and (also) good nourishment. Lo! therein is indeed a portent for people who have sense.

My initial one was translated by Shakir. These translations seem to leave a lot of ambiguity.

Aqa Mahdi Puya commentry seems a bit of a kop out too: "There are wholesome drinks and food that can be had from the date-palm and the grapes, such as vinegar and other non-intoxicating drinks. If sakar is taken in the sense of fermented intoxicating drinks, even then this verse does not affect the prohibition."

Who drinks vinegar???? And fermented intoxicating drinks are ok now? And the "strong drinks" translated by Pickthall don't even get a mention.

[Saracen]

I'll get back to you as soon as I have more time on my hands.

[Showboat]

No hurry mate.

[Zeeman]

Showboat wrote:

There is another verse, I can't remember which, will check when I get home, that says that one mustn't be drunk at prayer. Does this not imply that one can be drunk at other times?

Good question..I will answer it like it was answered to me.During the prophets days Arabs were heavy drinkers(The Prophet was one of the few that never drank). So knowing that it wouldnt work to stop immediately...So this verse was like the first step of the programm :wink:

[Glorfindel]

showboat

[16.67] And of the fruits of the palms and the grapes-- you obtain from them intoxication and goodly provision; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who ponder.

first of all,,, that verse was correctly translated, that verse did talk about how people used dates and grapes to make wine..but that does not say that Gos has permitted us to drink wine...

that verse talked about how people used those blesses and graces god has given them..but it does not say that it is ok for muslims to drink wine...

you understand what I'm saying? that verse is telling us how people used god's gifts ...it is not telling us that this is right and ok

about the other verse that prohibits muslims from praying when they are drunk... that also is correct... but you only got a piece of its story

you see my friend, when Mohammed started spreading the word of God and telling people to believe in him and stop worshipping false idols, the people of Mecca and all arabs , like other races , loved to drink and wrote poems about wine and drinking and so on... so it was almost impossible to tell those people to stop drinking right after they converted to Islam, because the fondness of drinking had a strong hold on them and to cure that disease it was crucial to take it step by step... so in the earlier years of Islam, wine was not prohibited, but quran referred to drinking wine and gambling as to have many uses for the people but their dangers are much bigger than their uses to make people start to think about it and repel from them

after that, the verse you asked about had been told by Gabriel to Mohammed, and in that verse god prohibits muslims from praying while intoxicated, and the reason is a muslim must be aware of everything he says and does when he prays and this condition can not be fullfilled when the muslim is intoxicated,,, so beucase of that those who did not stop drinking beucase of the first verse , had to stop drinking during the day or between prayers times and had to wait until after the last prayer at night to start drinking, which made them drink less and for a very brief time period and those who used to pray alot at night had to stop drinking in order to be able to keep praying

after that god gave the final and decisive order, prohibiting all muslims from drinking wine , I'm not sure in what chapter that verse was.. but if you keep reading you will get to it eventually...

when that order was received and the prophet told a few of his companions to spread this order instantly, and it was after AlEshaa prayer ( the last one) and those who has not quit drinking were about to start, and some of them had started already, but when they heard God's new order, they all stopped drinking and they started pouring all wine they had on the gournd... it is said that the alleys in AlMedina ran with wine ..in a picture of total obedience you can never imagine...a glorious one I would say

so you see my friend, Islam's prohibiton of alcohol started gradually from telling people of its dangers, to ordering people not to during between prayers times to prohibiting alcohol all together ... beucase Islam understands the weakness of men and how to cure such a disease without making people carry more than what they can bear

that's why you need to know that you cant interpret a verse without knowing the story behind it and its relationship to other verses...

I hope I was helpful

peace