Political Crossfire Forums

[TheGirlNextDoor]

halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.

It IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to SAVE THE LIFE OF A CANCER PATIENT.

Geez.

No need to shout.

What about heterosexuals who have reproductive disorders?

I would say that if two homosexual people can provide a loving and stable home life for a child, then they should be able to adopt.

The notion that only "straight" people know how to raise children, is pretty ridiculous - as is evidenced by several adoptive parents (heterosexuals) who have turned around and abused their adopted children. :?

You cannot tell me that because of someone's sexual orientation, that they are "unfit" to be parents. That doesn't fly and why in the world we would need legislation for such a thing, is beyond me.

I know heterosexual people who have NO business being parents. What about them? Making a baby does not equal being a parent. It is as simple as that.

If we were to do that (legislate who raises children), then I would consider making it that way across the board. ANY person or persons looking to have children.. either biologically or by adoption - should have to have a license to do so.

[Luigidel]

Hey, id be all for a license for anyone to who wants to be a parent, if i was a leftist lets make life fair for everyone gay marriage supporter, but such a thing is impossible to enforce, and would waste a great deal of my time. What we can prevent is the negative childhood experience that would be experienced by a child raised in a same-sex household. A kid raised like this would not only ne negatively effected, AS STUDIES SHOW, but would also not be able to live a normal life outside of the home. They would be made a target by every kid on the playgrouund to put it into plain terms.

[Crimson Shrew]

Shim Eun-Ha wrote: Crimson Shrew wrote: Shim Eun-Ha wrote: halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.


So a Gay man and a Gay woman can't have babies now?

Here we have another problem - ethics. I see very few people who feel that cheating on a spouse is morally acceptable.

YOU hear words i never said and it is a testament to just how homophobic you truly are, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

I said NOTHING about cheating, it's called surrogate parenthood, also practiced by many sterile heterosexual couples, and jesus-people.

Crawl out from under that rock of black and whites, kay?

Quote:
Besides, wouldn't that act in itself be repulsive to someone who is TRULY homosexual, in the same way homosexual activies are repulsive to a heterosexual person? Wouldn't that go against the principals of these people?

Notice i said "making babies" not "making out and f***ing eachother. Although that is not out of the question, it is not required to get semen from the man to the woman can be done through alternative means.

And many gay people have pretended to be straight while in the closet before. Especially the older ones.

Quote: Lets not even get into custody issues.
Let's, it's no big deal.

if i was 1/10 as homophobic as you claim i am, my best friend of 10 years wouldn't be gay. Think that one through

You win on the semen donation, but that doens't require a gay man and a gay woman, it can be a random donor and a woman, etc. Alot of people are opposed to that practice, but i don't have an opinion at the moment.

I think it's funny how you claim i'm homophobic, and thus intolerant, but you seem to be pretty "Christian-phobic" or whatever term you'd prefer to use. That's the issue with alot of self proclaimed liberals - they say they want tolerance, and understanding, but every last one of them is scared **** when you mention "God", "Jesus", or "Ten Commandments". Do you think it has something to do with a g uilty conscience? I don't. I think it's the hypocrisy that permeates the leftist movement from top to bottom.

[Crimson Shrew]

Luigidel wrote: Hey, id be all for a licendse for anyone to who wants to be a parent, but such a thing is impossible to enforce, and would be a great deal of time. What we can prevent is the negative childhood experience that would be experienced by a child raised in a same-sex household. A kid raised like this would not only ne negatively effected, AS STUDIES SHOW, but would also not be able to live a normal life outside of the home. They would be made a target by every kid on the playgrouund to put it into plain terms.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Luigidel wrote: Hey, id be all for a licendse for anyone to who wants to be a parent, but such a thing is impossible to enforce, and would be a great deal of time. What we can prevent is the negative childhood experience that would be experienced by a child raised in a same-sex household. A kid raised like this would not only ne negatively effected, AS STUDIES SHOW, but would also not be able to live a normal life outside of the home. They would be made a target by every kid on the playgrouund to put it into plain terms.

As studies show.

Link to back that up?

Not be able to live a "normal" life outside of the home?

Link please?

How about the kids now whose natural parents abuse them and neglect them? What about those children?

You are saying that homosexual people are incapable of raising normal, healthy, well rounded children, and that somehow - heterosexual people are.

I want proof of that preposterous claim.

[Kt]

Crimson Shrew wrote: Shim Eun-Ha wrote: Crimson Shrew wrote: Shim Eun-Ha wrote: halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.


So a Gay man and a Gay woman can't have babies now?

Here we have another problem - ethics. I see very few people who feel that cheating on a spouse is morally acceptable.

YOU hear words i never said and it is a testament to just how homophobic you truly are, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

I said NOTHING about cheating, it's called surrogate parenthood, also practiced by many sterile heterosexual couples, and jesus-people.

Crawl out from under that rock of black and whites, kay?

Quote:
Besides, wouldn't that act in itself be repulsive to someone who is TRULY homosexual, in the same way homosexual activies are repulsive to a heterosexual person? Wouldn't that go against the principals of these people?

Notice i said "making babies" not "making out and f***ing eachother. Although that is not out of the question, it is not required to get semen from the man to the woman can be done through alternative means.

And many gay people have pretended to be straight while in the closet before. Especially the older ones.

Quote: Lets not even get into custody issues.
Let's, it's no big deal.

if i was 1/10 as homophobic as you claim i am, my best friend of 10 years wouldn't be gay. Think that one through

You win on the semen donation, but that doens't require a gay man and a gay woman, it can be a random donor and a woman, etc. Alot of people are opposed to that practice, but i don't have an opinion at the moment.

I think it's funny how you claim i'm homophobic, and thus intolerant, but you seem to be pretty "Christian-phobic" or whatever term you'd prefer to use. That's the issue with alot of self proclaimed liberals - they say they want tolerance, and understanding, but every last one of them is scared **** when you mention "God", "Jesus", or "Ten Commandments". Do you think it has something to do with a g uilty conscience? I don't. I think it's the hypocrisy that permeates the leftist movement from top to bottom.

You don't like it?
Here's a little more hypocracy for you
I'm not trying to troll or anything, just trying to let you see things from my perspective.
By the way, does your gay "best" friend KNOW that you think they are unnatural, not healthy, and would make bad parents?

I find a lot of people like you like to bring up your "gay friends" in arguments like this, like because you have gay friends you have more right to be such a homophobe. I'm sure if they knew half about what you really think they wouldn't be your friends for long.
Oh yeah, and i have countless gay friends, and i'm sure they'd agree with me.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Crimson Shrew wrote: Luigidel wrote: Hey, id be all for a licendse for anyone to who wants to be a parent, but such a thing is impossible to enforce, and would be a great deal of time. What we can prevent is the negative childhood experience that would be experienced by a child raised in a same-sex household. A kid raised like this would not only ne negatively effected, AS STUDIES SHOW, but would also not be able to live a normal life outside of the home. They would be made a target by every kid on the playgrouund to put it into plain terms.

luigidel, you are an idiot. A parent permit? I kindly ask, what the f--k? People won't buy a permit to go screw in an alley somewhere. Let'snot go Big Brother on everyone, here! Beurocracy and red tape, for ANY activity, are terrible things. For "mating"? Rediculous idea.

Go to sleep, and don't post again until you do

And I know Luigidel personally, he won't take this personally.

:twisted:

Moderator NOTE:

I do not care if Luigidel is your father - no personal attacks are tolerated on this board.

[Crimson Shrew]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.

It IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to SAVE THE LIFE OF A CANCER PATIENT.

Geez.

No need to shout.

What about heterosexuals who have reproductive disorders?

I would say that if two homosexual people can provide a loving and stable home life for a child, then they should be able to adopt.

The notion that only "straight" people know how to raise children, is pretty ridiculous - as is evidenced by several adoptive parents (heterosexuals) who have turned around and abused their adopted children. :?

You cannot tell me that because of someone's sexual orientation, that they are "unfit" to be parents. That doesn't fly and why in the world we would need legislation for such a thing, is beyond me.

I know heterosexual people who have NO business being parents. What about them? Making a baby does not equal being a parent. It is as simple as that.

If we were to do that (legislate who raises children), then I would consider making it that way across the board. ANY person or persons looking to have children.. either biologically or by adoption - should have to have a license to do so.



I know all kinds of people who are hetero and COMPLETELY unfit for parenting. Hell, half of them can't take care of themselves properly, much less a child!

Doesn't mean that by leaving one more way to mess children up is right, does it?

I mean, people murder each other each year, so since it's gonna happen anyway, why don't we just make it legal? Or how about this - lets make a license. Apply to kill people. Don't like your neighbor? put in for a license, go through a few months of red tape, etc, and blast away.

Further the beauracracy is NOT the solution to ANY problem, trust me.

I've dealth with buying certain, highly restricted types of firearms. I know what happens when you give a gov't organization the responsibility of taking of papers. You send in $200 tax forms, and wait 90-120 days for somebody to stamp "approved" on your papers, then you get your item legally.

And anybody who's tried to get a driver's license in a big city, or any other manor of tasks dealing with paperwork and red tape, would likely agree with me.

[Luigidel]

I do believe i posted several articles previously. Being a high school senior, with experience with how a couple of my gay friends are treated, and being exposed to the idealogy and views of my peers everyday, i know through firsthand experience that being raised by gay parents could be in no way an enjoyable experience for any child. With perhaps the exception of being raised this way in San Francisco.

[Kt]

Luigidel wrote: I do believe i posted several articles previously. Being a high school senior, with experience with how a couple of my gay friends are treated, and being exposed to the idealogy and views of my peers everyday, i know through firsthand experience that being raised by gay parents could be in no way an enjoyable experience for any child. With perhaps the exception of being raised this way in San Francisco.
Are your parents gay? That would be firsthand experience surely.

[00timh]

While I do not believe that there should be legislation preventing homosexuals from raising children, there is a reality to this situation. In most cases, children who are already torn up about their parents being divorced get treated to a double whammy when one of their parents comes out of the closet.

I will give the one example that I was aware of. My ex-sister in law who is a lesbian was living with a woman who had been married for many years to an abusive husband. They had 2 kids. When she left him and eventually met up with my ex SIL The children had to decide whether to live with an abusive father or a mother they felt they no onger knew and felt betrayed by. as much for her being gay as was also her not informing her children of her being gay. (well, she is not really a true lesbian but had been so put off from men that she decided to be a lesbian for a time)

She ended up raising her son. They both decided which parent they wanted to live with and both kids were very unhappy. I can tell you that the boy had a good household and was raised well, but the reality is that in most cases, the children are not going to be happy in this situation.

Now, if a gay couple wants to adopt, I am unsure how I feel about this. On the one hand I feel that a stable environment sure beats the hell out of an orphanage or god knows what. On the other hand, assuming that society will still be having issues with homosexuality, there may dome a time when the child will resent being brought up in a gay household without being able to choose.

Another area which is similar are gay couples who use artificial insemination or a surrogate mother. Again, the child will likely feel resentment. They will resent not having a mother and a father.

I do not think we need legislation to prevent this but the reality is that it is often not a good situation regardless of what pretty picture people try to paint it as. It may be the best choice for children but personally, I think having children and being gay is selfish when they are denying a child a mother and a father. In cases such as the one I am familiar with the children should be able to decide if they can.

[Crimson Shrew]

my bad on the "personal attacks", i fixed it

Anyway, back to topic, yes my gay friend does know how i feel about things, and in fact he held the same beliefs as i did for a while. Strange situation, yes, but luigidel can back that one up.

And he continues to be a close friend. Isn't it odd how REAL friendshps work? They're pretty rare.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Crimson Shrew wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.

It IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to SAVE THE LIFE OF A CANCER PATIENT.

Geez.

No need to shout.

What about heterosexuals who have reproductive disorders?

I would say that if two homosexual people can provide a loving and stable home life for a child, then they should be able to adopt.

The notion that only "straight" people know how to raise children, is pretty ridiculous - as is evidenced by several adoptive parents (heterosexuals) who have turned around and abused their adopted children. :?

You cannot tell me that because of someone's sexual orientation, that they are "unfit" to be parents. That doesn't fly and why in the world we would need legislation for such a thing, is beyond me.

I know heterosexual people who have NO business being parents. What about them? Making a baby does not equal being a parent. It is as simple as that.

If we were to do that (legislate who raises children), then I would consider making it that way across the board. ANY person or persons looking to have children.. either biologically or by adoption - should have to have a license to do so.



I know all kinds of people who are hetero and COMPLETELY unfit for parenting. Hell, half of them can't take care of themselves properly, much less a child!

Doesn't mean that by leaving one more way to mess children up is right, does it?

I mean, people murder each other each year, so since it's gonna happen anyway, why don't we just make it legal? Or how about this - lets make a license. Apply to kill people. Don't like your neighbor? put in for a license, go through a few months of red tape, etc, and blast away.

Further the beauracracy is NOT the solution to ANY problem, trust me.

I've dealth with buying certain, highly restricted types of firearms. I know what happens when you give a gov't organization the responsibility of taking of papers. You send in $200 tax forms, and wait 90-120 days for somebody to stamp "approved" on your papers, then you get your item legally.

And anybody who's tried to get a driver's license in a big city, or any other manor of tasks dealing with paperwork and red tape, would likely agree with me.

What is your point? Are you arguing that this should be legislated (adoption by homosexuals) or that it should not be?

And if you are of the opinion that it SHOULD be - why and why SHOULD IT NOT then be a straight across the board legislation for all - heteosexual couples AND homosexual couples?

I am not talking about drivers licenses, hunting permits, gun permits or anything else. I happen to be of the belief (if you had read what I stated earlier) that I do not believe that homosexuals should be legislated or PREVENTED from adoption - if they can provide a loving and caring home for a child.

So with sticking to the topic, what are your thoughts?

[Kt]

*Edited by TGND - You know better*

[Luigidel]

That wasn't what i was rebutting, i do know how i would be treated if they were though. And Crimson's best friend happens to be one of my best friends as well. He jolds the same views as us on this topic, he is against gay marriage, and is EXTREMELY AGAINST SAME SEX PARENTING. SO obviously this isnt solely the product of homophopbia, which i assure you i am not afflicted with.

[halcyon~sky]

Dude, Shim. Everybody is tired of your anarchist BS. You don't even have some kind of clear personal agenda, you just lash out at everything and expect for someone to feel sorry for you.

When you can come up with some kind of clear, concise ARGUMENT, for anything, not just some angry rant, then you may get a little respect.

[TheGirlNextDoor]

With all due respect, how one persons experiences play into this - while not to be totally dismissed - should not exactly be a determining factor for all in the same situation.

[Kt]

halcyon~sky wrote: Dude, Shim. Everybody is tired of your anarchist BS. You don't even have some kind of clear personal agenda, you just lash out at everything and expect for someone to feel sorry for you.

When you can come up with some kind of clear, concise ARGUMENT, for anything, not just some angry rant, then you may get a little respect.
You are wrong, Not everybody is tired of me, hell, some people even like me on these forums.
I HAVE a very clear personal agenda which i have made very clear on many occasions.
I am finished arguing with you, i have been clear and said my peice, and now i will focus on showing just how weak YOUR "arguements" are. And the whole defamation bit too.

[Crimson Shrew]

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Crimson Shrew wrote: TheGirlNextDoor wrote: halcyon~sky wrote: It isn't PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE for a GAY PERSON to CONCEIVE WITH another GAY PERSON.

It IS PHYSICALLY POSSIBLE to SAVE THE LIFE OF A CANCER PATIENT.

Geez.

No need to shout.

What about heterosexuals who have reproductive disorders?

I would say that if two homosexual people can provide a loving and stable home life for a child, then they should be able to adopt.

The notion that only "straight" people know how to raise children, is pretty ridiculous - as is evidenced by several adoptive parents (heterosexuals) who have turned around and abused their adopted children. :?

You cannot tell me that because of someone's sexual orientation, that they are "unfit" to be parents. That doesn't fly and why in the world we would need legislation for such a thing, is beyond me.

I know heterosexual people who have NO business being parents. What about them? Making a baby does not equal being a parent. It is as simple as that.

If we were to do that (legislate who raises children), then I would consider making it that way across the board. ANY person or persons looking to have children.. either biologically or by adoption - should have to have a license to do so.



I know all kinds of people who are hetero and COMPLETELY unfit for parenting. Hell, half of them can't take care of themselves properly, much less a child!

Doesn't mean that by leaving one more way to mess children up is right, does it?

I mean, people murder each other each year, so since it's gonna happen anyway, why don't we just make it legal? Or how about this - lets make a license. Apply to kill people. Don't like your neighbor? put in for a license, go through a few months of red tape, etc, and blast away.

Further the beauracracy is NOT the solution to ANY problem, trust me.

I've dealth with buying certain, highly restricted types of firearms. I know what happens when you give a gov't organization the responsibility of taking of papers. You send in $200 tax forms, and wait 90-120 days for somebody to stamp "approved" on your papers, then you get your item legally.

And anybody who's tried to get a driver's license in a big city, or any other manor of tasks dealing with paperwork and red tape, would likely agree with me.

What is your point? Are you arguing that this should be legislated (adoption by homosexuals) or that it should not be?

And if you are of the opinion that it SHOULD be - why and why SHOULD IT NOT then be a straight across the board legislation for all - heteosexual couples AND homosexual couples?

I am not talking about drivers licenses, hunting permits, gun permits or anything else. I happen to be of the belief (if you had read what I stated earlier) that I do not believe that homosexuals should be legislated or PREVENTED from adoption - if they can provide a loving and caring home for a child.

So with sticking to the topic, what are your thoughts?


This quoting thing is getting out of hand, i need to figure out how to chop some of that off

Anyway, my thoughts are that no, homosexual couples should not be allowed to adopt. With the fact that even heterosexual couples are FAR from perfect does not justify allowing homosexual couples to adopt. The reason? That it's quite possible for a hetero couple to raise a child in a normal, stable environment - there's no basic fact of life in that situation that raises questions. Do people mess that up? ALL THE TIME. Anyone who doens't accept that is on some seriously hard drugs. And that's not a personal attack because i wasnt' referring to anybody in particular, i promise.

in a homosexual environment, you do have something that will open the child up to redicule like nothing else, and something which will leave the child with a distorted view of life in the first place. THATS my problem with gay marriage. There's a fundamental issue that no matter how you cut it, no matter how good the parents are, will always be there.

That's not the case in a hetero environment.

i live with a single mother, and that's hardly un natural. My view of children isn't "they come from a test tube" or "They come from the nice man in China". That's the problem, a child raised in a gay environment will have problems adjusting to "The real world" as it may be.

[halcyon~sky]

Quote: You are wrong, Not everybody is tired of me, hell, some people even like me on these forums.
I HAVE a very clear personal agenda which i have made very clear on many occasions.
I am finished arguing with you, i have been clear and said my peice, and now i will focus on showing just how weak YOUR "arguements" are. And the whole defamation bit too. '


Can anyone say "I have a plan?"

John Fu&king Kerry.