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Orions
Joined: 07 Mar 2005
Posts: 65
Location: A big city I hate.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: Cartoon contest in Iran |
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Today I heard in the news that a large Iran newspaper has put up a cartoon contest to test the freedom of speech in the West. The topic of the caricatural cartoons is the Holocaust.
Well, now thats something that caused some mixed feelings. Firstly, the idea to test our freedom of speech idea is quite... smart. I mean I know that it is among others me, that is being tested, but ok - I can take a good joke.
However I think that they couldn't pick a worse topic. Now's the part where I begin to get a bit offended. The official Iran policy (from what the newspapers say here - correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Holocaust never happened and it is only a conspiracy used by the jews to control Europe and the US. Now, if you live where I live (Poland) and if you have seen the Auschwitz camp... well, you don't say things like that. Just don't. Go there, see the boxes with skulls and bones for the beginning - and after one or two hours we will talk whether the Holocaust happened or not.
If somebody drew a cartoon of Jesus, well I wouldn't probably waste too much time getting irritated, I believe in being able to take some matters lightly. But making fun of over 6 million people dying is not a good idea of a joke for me. Of course I don't say that they shouldn't publish that cartoon or that they should apologize, or that we should bomb them or anything even more stupid. I really believe in freedom of speech. I just say: "Please come here, see Auschwitz, see Treblinka, then choose the topic more carefully."
And I'm lucky that noone from my family died in Auschwitz (my fiancee's grandfather was there though - luckily he survived), because otherwise my response would be probably a bit more heated.
Anyway, I am waiting for opinions. |
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Mangas_Coloradas
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Denying the holocaust is certainly far worse than drawing pictures of
Muhammed. Everyone who knows anything about history know
that the holocaust happened. I guess it is an intresting question though
should lies be protected by freedom of speech ?
It is also hypocritical of people to say that insulting muslims is wrong
(drawing Muhammed), but that insulting jews and anyone else who cares
about the holocaust is ok. |
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Saracen
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 16047
Location: On Earth
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Denying the holocaust is certainly far worse than drawing pictures of
Muhammed. Everyone who knows anything about history know
that the holocaust happened. I guess it is an intresting question though
should lies be protected by freedom of speech ?
It is also hypocritical of people to say that insulting muslims is wrong
(drawing Muhammed), but that insulting jews and anyone else who cares
about the holocaust is ok.
:roll: :roll:
I have to disagree. We weren't the ones who were intolerant in the first place. The Danish government did a bad job in upholding the principles of tolerance when the cartoon was allowed to spread. And the Prophet (PBUH) wasn't a terrorist nor a barbarian. Anyone who's smart in history should know this as well. It's funny though, I see it the opposite. It seems that it's okay to insult the Prophet (PBUH) and deny the existence of a Palestinian people, but it's not okay to deny the Holocaust.
Hypocrisy, indeed. |
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Mangas_Coloradas
Joined: 16 Jan 2004
Posts: 116
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Moath wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Denying the holocaust is certainly far worse than drawing pictures of
Muhammed. Everyone who knows anything about history know
that the holocaust happened. I guess it is an intresting question though
should lies be protected by freedom of speech ?
It is also hypocritical of people to say that insulting muslims is wrong
(drawing Muhammed), but that insulting jews and anyone else who cares
about the holocaust is ok.
:roll: :roll:
I have to disagree. We weren't the ones who were intolerant in the first place. The Danish government did a bad job in upholding the principles of tolerance when the cartoon was allowed to spread. And the Prophet (PBUH) wasn't a terrorist nor a barbarian. Anyone who's smart in history should know this as well. It's funny though, I see it the opposite. It seems that it's okay to insult the Prophet (PBUH) and deny the existence of a Palestinian people, but it's not okay to deny the Holocaust.
Hypocrisy, indeed.
The government of Denmark can not prevent a newspaper from
publishing a cartoon, and should not appologize for something that
isn't their fault.
Neither Jesus nor Muhammed were terrorists but a lot of people have
been killing in their name. You could argue that the drawing of
Muhammed with a bomb symbolize the people who claim that they
are killing in the name of Muhammed/Allah.
But were should we draw the line on freedom of speech.
should we ban anything that is insulting to Islam ?
If we do we need to ban everything that is insulting to other religions
as well, but that would be impossible......... |
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Showboat
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 879
Location: Dongguan City, China
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:34 am Post subject: |
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| People shouldn't publish cartoons offending other peoples religions and people shouldn't publish insensitive cartoons about the holocaust. Simple as that. The biggest threat to our freedom of speech are the people who abuse that freedom. |
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Robweiller
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 523
Location: warsaw.pl
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 8:36 am Post subject: |
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Saracen wrote: and deny the existence of a Palestinian people, but it's not okay to deny the Holocaust.
Hypocrisy, indeed.
Who's denying the existence of the Palestinians? |
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Saracen
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 16047
Location: On Earth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 10:09 am Post subject: |
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Robweiller wrote: Saracen wrote: and deny the existence of a Palestinian people, but it's not okay to deny the Holocaust.
Hypocrisy, indeed.
Who's denying the existence of the Palestinians?
Israelis and a large portion of the pro-Israeli West. |
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jeechoscopy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2004
Location: Republic of Partisan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Denying the holocaust is certainly far worse than drawing pictures of
Muhammed. Everyone who knows anything about history know
that the holocaust happened. I guess it is an intresting question though
should lies be protected by freedom of speech ?
Open your eyes and look, as the holocaust proves a REALITY, so The Love for Mohammad in Muslims hearts proves that as well. Any activity that indicates holocaust is strictly banned means an expression of hatred against Jews is banned. What is important in your eyes can be different but more than a 100 millions Muslims are emotionally banned.
Mangas_Coloradas wrote: It is also hypocritical of people to say that insulting muslims is wrong
(drawing Muhammed), but that insulting jews and anyone else who cares
about the holocaust is ok.
Muslims never involved in the holocaust nor they ever teased to anyone through anyway. That, It’s the first time Iranian govt. going to do that is like a challenge to freedom of speech in those countries –those have been teasing through the so called freedom. Let it be done. You could see then how a ‘wild and uncivilized freedom’ works.
You may proud for the hypocrisy the west is practicing over freedom of speech –if only we keep focus on the topic. Banning anything about holocaust -publishing or transmiting, is absolutely unfair and nontransparent against the mighty freedom. While Jews have lesser population than Muslims in those countries.
At the question of Muslims you must not be unfair. It’s more than making them emotional-slaves.
Mohammad (PBUM) came here for everyone, to everyone he broken all these slaveries. |
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Robin Hood
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3295
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: People shouldn't publish cartoons offending other peoples religions and people shouldn't publish insensitive cartoons about the holocaust. Simple as that. The biggest threat to our freedom of speech are the people who abuse that freedom.
No it's people like you since you actually advocate ending freedom of speech. There are no half-measures, you either have it or you don't. This is subjective tastes choose what it prohibited and they could prohibit anything.
Quote: You may proud for the hypocrisy the west is practicing over freedom of speech –if only we keep focus on the topic. Banning anything about holocaust -publishing or transmiting, is absolutely unfair and nontransparent against the mighty freedom.
I think banning any speech is wrong, holocaust related or not. I have no hypocrisy. Yet I recognize that the holocaust cartoons are much more distasteful than the Mohammed ones. One mocked a religion in a way that christianity is mocked by other atheists all the time, the other is making a joke out of the murder if 6 million people. Neither should be banned, but seriously you can not equate the two.
By the way since the cartoons were published in an Egyptian newspaper, El Fagr, back in October to absolutely no mass protest we can safely sure that the emotional outbursts represent fake emotions. The fact that the Saud family controls the majority of the Arab world news outlets, and Al Jazeera is in the hands of the Muslim brotherhood it seems no coincidence that the turmoil came just after the disaster in Mecca during the Haj, for which the Saud family would paid for with reputation in places like Pakistan. |
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jeechoscopy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2004
Location: Republic of Partisan
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Cartoon contest in Iran |
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Reason wrote: I think banning any speech is wrong, holocaust related or not. I have no hypocrisy. Yet I recognize that the holocaust cartoons are much more distasteful than the Mohammed ones. One mocked a religion in a way that Christianity is mocked by other atheists all the time, the other is making a joke out of the murder if 6 million people. Neither should be banned, but seriously you can not equate the two.
Yes, absolutely true in your eyes. No equality. But for me blasphemy to a prophet is the worst, especially when Muslim countries are continuously conquered. Thousands of lives are slaughtered. More than a holocaust! Because here we see social science and expert rationalism’s involved like a sacred sack.
To close my eyes I’ve to be atheist but I can’t do that.
Orions wrote:
However I think that they couldn't pick a worse topic. Now's the part where I begin to get a bit offended. The official Iran policy (from what the newspapers say here - correct me if I'm wrong) is that the Holocaust never happened and it is only a conspiracy used by the jews to control Europe and the US. Now, if you live where I live (Poland) and if you have seen the Auschwitz camp... well, you don't say things like that. Just don't. Go there, see the boxes with skulls and bones for the beginning - and after one or two hours we will talk whether the Holocaust happened or not.
Orion you push me to know about holocaust existence, I surprised to get the information that there had been a controversy about holocaust existence.
Wonderful! this article support the existence but really interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair
Love!! |
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Saracen
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Posts: 16047
Location: On Earth
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't deny the holocaust, but remember, Orions: the Iranian government is not representative of Muslims right now. |
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Robin Hood
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3295
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: the Iranian government is not representative of Muslims right now.
It certainly isn't, nor is is it really representative of the majority of Iranians. Political Islam has only become prevalent in the absence of alternative i.e when the liberals (classical) are banned by the dictatorships we all to have propped up.
This is not a time to assuage old grievances though, we must present the liberal alternative and aid those who do. |
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Showboat
Joined: 27 Jun 2005
Posts: 879
Location: Dongguan City, China
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 6:32 am Post subject: |
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Quote: No it's people like you since you actually advocate ending freedom of speech. There are no half-measures, you either have it or you don't. This is subjective tastes choose what it prohibited and they could prohibit anything.
Well we don't have it now in that case. I'm not free to call a policeman a "f***ing Pig" I'll get arrested, I can't say "Hail Hitler" in half of Europe. I wasn't advocating ending freedom of speech, I was saying people shouldn't print those things. It was just childish, done for no other reason than to offend people, maybe we have a "right" to print it but we have a moral obligation not to. If they hadn't have printed those cartoons the limits of our freedom of speech wouldn't be being debated right now. Therefore the people that abuse our right are the biggest threat to it. |
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Robin Hood
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3295
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: Well we don't have it now in that case. I'm not free to call a policeman a "f***ing Pig" I'll get arrested, I can't say "Hail Hitler" in half of Europe.
I agree we don't have it but that doesn't mean we shouldn't.
Quote: It was just childish, done for no other reason than to offend people, maybe we have a "right" to print it but we have a moral obligation not to.
Yes but that doesn't mean it should be banned. Anyway those cartoons done simply to offend anymore than the SuperFriends team episode of South Park. |
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jeechoscopy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2004
Location: Republic of Partisan
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Reason wrote: Quote: the Iranian government is not representative of Muslims right now.
It certainly isn't, nor is is it really representative of the majority of Iranians. Political Islam has only become prevalent in the absence of alternative i.e when the liberals (classical) are banned by the dictatorships we all to have propped up.
This is not a time to assuage old grievances though, we must present the liberal alternative and aid those who do.
Quite a better understanding!!
You could see it’s all happening after ottomans. Quite as with India when the British were colonizing it and Russia over central east. It’s a quantum gap of evaluation to understanding the freedom. But I’ll claim what the west earns during the last hundred years is absolutely antireligious. Perhaps, they have a bad taste experiences to their religions.
According to the use of social sciences for goodness of the day’s scenario I prefer the “designed persuasion” toward evolution rather than weaponry strategy. |
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Todd D.
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 3327
Location: Horned Frog Country
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| Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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Get back at a nation that is made up of mostly Christians.....by offending the Jews, who make up a very very small minority of the Danish population. Does that strike anyone else as misplaced?
Quote: The Danish government did a bad job in upholding the principles of tolerance when the cartoon was allowed to spread.
Principles of tolerance are left to society, not the government. Governments are there to protect rights, not act as a father figure and tell you when you are being an a$$hat. Freedom of Speech is a right. Freedom to not be offended is not.
Quote: It seems that it's okay to insult the Prophet (PBUH) and deny the existence of a Palestinian people, but it's not okay to deny the Holocaust.
You're right, any law that makes denying the Holocaust a criminal offense is retarded and should be repealed. I actually would prefer it be repealed, it would make it easier for me to figure out who the idiots are.
Quote: Thousands of lives are slaughtered. More than a holocaust!
....um.... you do know more than "thousands" were killed in the Holocaust, yes? |
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Poon
Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 3760
Location: US
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 11:17 am Post subject: |
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Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Denying the holocaust is certainly far worse than drawing pictures of
Muhammed. That is only a matter of opinion...
Quote: Everyone who knows anything about history know
that the holocaust happened. I guess it is an intresting question though
should lies be protected by freedom of speech ?
It is also hypocritical of people to say that insulting muslims is wrong
(drawing Muhammed), but that insulting jews and anyone else who cares
about the holocaust is ok. What is wrong or right really depends on your point of reference.... |
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jeechoscopy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2004
Location: Republic of Partisan
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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Quote: Get back at a nation that is made up of mostly Christians...
A newspaper that scratches world issues would be heard worldwide in the mass communications age, don’t you know?
Quote: Principles of tolerance are left to society, not the government. Governments are there to protect rights, not act as a father figure and tell you when you are being an a$$ha
Frequently and nonstop publications of the cartoons raises questions.
What purpose behind the evoking?
Quote: um.... you do know more than "thousands" were killed in the Holocaust, yes?
To make and then condemn a New Holocaust you would need to kill millions in Middle East, hmm?
Quote: Freedom of Speech is a right. Freedom to not be offended is not.
Followers not by Prophets always depreciated unification of religions.
Alas! |
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Robin Hood
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Posts: 3295
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Quote: What is wrong or right really depends on your point of reference....
Throw a ball up in the air, see if your point of reference can make it's falling down 'wrong'......
Quote: A newspaper that scratches world issues would be heard worldwide in the mass communications age, don’t you know?
Fine, then you can kiss goodbye to almost every newspaper in the Arab world. |
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jeechoscopy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2004
Location: Republic of Partisan
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| Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
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Quote: Throw a ball up in the air, see if your point of reference can make it's falling down 'wrong'...
Hmm. Winds are really so heavy…
Quote: Fine, then you can kiss goodbye to almost every newspaper in the Arab world.
This assumption would let you stop blaming that Arab newspapers aren’t free…
Anyways, how’re you making me goodbye them? |
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