Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16427 Location: On Earth

### wrote: Hmmmm.....I may have to retract a previous post of mine. Not exactly the phrase I was expecting.

It's a bit too extreme, but this applies to Muslims. It's an extremist policy, I guess, but unless we could get our moderate Muslims to talk about this, we can expect some serious, fresh debate.

jeechoscopy · Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:21 am Post subject:

The cartoons are still a burning question.

What purpose would behind it, when states are involved in?

You know each reaction of Muslims (as a collective) is deeply observed.
But only whenever they want.

Your reaction would not be checked when your children will be burning by missile fires.
Why?

I request you to be careful.

Just be careful!!

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

snow wrote: Glorfindel wrote:

this barbairnism you speak of is the teachings of our religion I'm not sure if you are taught to bite on your lips when someone mocks those dearest to you... but I was not

people like you are the reason why those who you should be calling barbarians are insulting every religious figure in your religion and mine...

why stop making fun of them if nobody cares?

Spare me with the "teachings of our religion," because there is rarely a set teaching for a religion. If this were not the case, Osama Bin Laden wouldn't be around justifying his actions through Islam.

When someone mocks another that is dear to me, I don't call for their execution. I don't live in the stone age, like you apparently do. That is just ridiculous and pathetic.

People who mock what is sacred to others are not barbarians, they just aren't very respectful. A barbarian is you, someone who thinks mocking should lead to execution.

People will stop making fun of others when foolish people stop getting such a rise out of the mocking. You don't understand human psychology, do you? If someone mocks Mohammed every single day, and nobody pays them any attention, they will eventually stop. When they mock him once, and there is a ridiculous outrage, they will continue to do it because human beings crave ATTENTION. You are simply egging them on, and it's actually quite comical, in a depressing sort of way.

ok ok... I live in the stone age.. and I'm ridiculous and pathetic.. we all get that.. and i'm not even gonna start with the name calling and whatnot... if you have not noticed you didnt really say anything about my original post or even comment on this hypocrasy on the danish newspaper's part

and if you know the slightest bit about Islam you would know how mistaken Osama is... you don't even wanna learn about it... you are comfortable with what you believe in and would hate to be exposed to reality

so what is your reaction if someone makes fun of Jesus? or maybe my question should be... is there gonna be any kind of reaction if someone mocks Jesus?

I do believe that mocking any one of the prophets or God should be executed ..if he is a muslim... you don't like it? well hey call me a barbarian until your mouth dries off..I really don't care about your opinion and what you think of me...

you are ok with those making fun of those who God chose to lead mankind to salvation... and you are not ok with me asking them to be respectful of the beliefs of others if they don't have any? what kind of logic is this?

and about your little psychology theory... well... I'm not gonna say that I know more than you... but this doesnt work with the masses, people like those never stop..but get bolder and bolder ...

ignoring these insults and acting like nothing happened is not gonna do it this time...

they will eventually stop? how long has Islam been a comedy material? how much longer should we ignore this for you to stop insulting us then ran behind your so-called freedom of speech? yeah...this will not eventually stop...this must stop NOW...

reacting is gonna egg them on? we will see how far they can go...and will see who is really losing in all of this

anyway... if calling me names is gonna make you feel better... then please help yourself... and try to use new stuff..variety never hurts you know

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16427 Location: On Earth

Glorfindel, snow, relax. Please.

Glorfindel, snow is not anti-Muslim. He has a copy of the Koran and is in fact quite interested in Islam.

snow, Glorfindel is not anti-Christian. He's trying to make a point in defending his religion against sacrilegious acts.

Carrying on...

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Moath wrote: Glorfindel, snow, relax. Please.

Glorfindel, snow is not anti-Muslim. He has a copy of the Koran and is in fact quite interested in Islam.

snow, Glorfindel is not anti-Christian. He's trying to make a point in defending his religion against sacrilegious acts.

Carrying on...

:) brother Moath.. I'm quite relaxed... and bear in mind that I have not accused of being anti-muslim.... in fact I have not accused him of anything

it pleases me to know that he is interested in Islam... but that doesnt change my opinion on the matter at hand

thx though

peace

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16427 Location: On Earth

No problem. I think where snow, who proved himself to be a devout Christian, is trying to tell us that you should be proud of your religious figures, but you shouldn't give a damn because it's not your loss in the end, but theirs. He has a valid point, but obviously, you and I are at odds with his side of the argument. Now, back to the topic...

CroChristian · Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 16 Location: Dalmatia

Moath wrote: I agree with you that this response is disgusting, but now this response is dying off as an end to this whole fiasco is in sight.

Response is dying, but attitude and mind of those who wanted Europe 9/11, beheaded bodies, death to all who do not think as they do...is still there. and that is not a minority but majority of muslim world.

Glorfindel wrote: you being too tolerant when someone insults Jesus doesnt mean that I have to be like you
Jesus being lampooned and you people are not angry about it doesnt mean we should be like you...
do you think we muslims laugh when we see someone making fun of Jesus? no we don't

My reaction to this would not be like this reaction of muslims which is direct from hell because in christianity VENGEANCE BELONGS TO GOD.

Islam and Kuran with it´s attitude towards Jesus as Son of God and Bible (not to mention Jews) is insulting for christians, but yet islam is freely practised around Europe and US.
When you say that Jesus is not son of god that is for me sign that you are making fun of him and if you want to be trustworthy...
Glorfindel wrote: and if one muslim makes fun of Jesus or Moses,, I will be the first one asking the government to execute him... those men should not be material for a cartoon or a comedy act
you should kill yourself :lol:

I think in Saudi Arabia and 90% of islamic world christiantiy is not free to be practised. Can I come to Jeddah and say to local muslims in converstation that for me Mohammed is a false prophet just like you say in my country that Jesus Christ is not son of god and that Biblie is disorted by Jewa and christians?
Tell me who is hypocrat? West where you can practice your religion or your coocooned world? Why you keep coming to that hypocratic Europe and US? Is it because there is freedom and normal living conditions or because you like hypocrates?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Glorfindel wrote: snow wrote: Glorfindel wrote: loool ..

is that gonna be your answer to my last question?

I don't know what exactly is bothering you in that comment... is it me asking for capital punishment? or me telling you that I would be angry if a muslim mock Moses or Jesus?

Executing someone who makes fun of a religious figure is the most backwards, ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

those religious figures are more sacred to us muslims than your "freedom of speech" to you

I guess we will have to see about that.

I don't think you are correct, because you dishonor Islam with your statements. Surely it is not that sacred if it is to only be used as a political tool.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1642

OH MY GOD!

what a war!

some people are so COLD BLOODED and some are NOT!
it is as simple as this!

people react at different levels!

by the way.....in case any of hasn't seen the news....most of the protests have started because of the cartoons but turned into protest against the ones who are claiming to be democratic in their countries BUT ARE BEING COMMUNISTS TO OTHER COUNTIRES!

jeechoscopy · Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:26 am Post subject:

It’s difficult to justify a destruction of a house during protesting. This is true and this is absolutely true that protesting is an emotional activity.

When we see Chinese protesting by destruction and throwing stones to the police force… an immediate reaction in your mind responses in favor to the Chinese People rather than the destructed building or the state’s police… Now you see Muslims protesting… and you react according to your feedbacks provided by your media. Thanks media… Thanks hatred… thanks the distinct thought.

It’s really hard that you could translate the feelings of ones attachments to a thing or a person. It’s really very hard and its absolutely true. If you are limited to you children… your sons sent to battlefields and you protest against wars. Holding banners those abuses the president etc, etc… Your attachment to the country can’t be challenged. You again, misunderstand the truth, non-compromise-able hard.

It’s really very hard, really… very… much… hard to let you understand unless you permit the love to Mohammad into your hearts.

Once allow it in your hearts!!

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

CroChristian wrote:
Response is dying, but attitude and mind of those who wanted Europe 9/11, beheaded bodies, death to all who do not think as they do...is still there. and that is not a minority but majority of muslim world.

where did you hear this? from Osama himself? even if such thing is said, do you think those who know best about Islam would let something like that happen?

My reaction to this would not be like this reaction of muslims which is direct from hell because in christianity VENGEANCE BELONGS TO GOD. [/quote]

well in christianity , maybe you are taught and just got used to the idea of people insulting your God... we are not... in Islam we are taught that if you see something wrong.. you must try to stop it either by action if you can, or declaring your opinion of it , or by denying it by heart and thats the weakest kind of response...

CroChristian wrote:
Islam and Kuran with it´s attitude towards Jesus as Son of God and Bible (not to mention Jews) is insulting for christians, but yet islam is freely practised around Europe and US.
When you say that Jesus is not son of god that is for me sign that you are making fun of him and if you want to be trustworthy...

Islam insults judaism and christianity... what is this? the joke of the day? in Islam even your religious figures like Moses, David, or Jesus are more honored and respected than they are in your religion. in Islam Moses never told the jews to steal, david never committed adultery, Lut never had incest with his daughters, Jesus never claimed to be a God, and so on and so on

and I already told you what would have happened if a muslim insulted Jesus or Moses, I don't need to go through all that again if you are not gonna read ever post in this thread

loool... your logic is impeccable... I don't believe in Jesus to be my god, does not mean that I'm spreading Jokes about it all day... so all muslims and Jews and everybody must admit that Jesus is the son of God and our savior so that we would not offend you? lool...so everybody should become christians , otherwise we all are like that danish cartoonist, huh?

ok I'll use your flawless logic and say all who walks on earth should become muslims , otherwise they are insulting Islam... how unreasonable do you think this is?

CroChristian wrote: you should kill yourself :lol:
yeah thats funny

CroChristian wrote:
I think in Saudi Arabia and 90% of islamic world christiantiy is not free to be practised. Can I come to Jeddah and say to local muslims in converstation that for me Mohammed is a false prophet just like you say in my country that Jesus Christ is not son of god and that Biblie is disorted by Jewa and christians?
Tell me who is hypocrat? West where you can practice your religion or your coocooned world? Why you keep coming to that hypocratic Europe and US? Is it because there is freedom and normal living conditions or because you like hypocrates?

you think and you give percentages but what do you know? nothing.
chrsitains have been in every muslim country with various percentages and they go to church and live their lives as free as they want... but unlike you ..they know how to respect others and be respected as well... open your eyes man and stop copying from the media...

the only place in all country of Islam that its inhibitants should be all muslims is the arabian peninsula, many missionaries are all over the muslim owrld and are extorting straving or about to die to poeple to convert them to christianity...others exploit the ignorance in those illetrate muslims to convert them to christianity.... and it is my fault, it is our fault as muslims that we didnt help our poor brothers or try to teach them

and you can come to Saudi Arabia and involve in a conversation about religions and say that you don't believe in Mohammed... as long as you don't insult him,, you are to believe in what you want.. just dont insult the beliefs of others...

and believe me that muslims already know that you don't believe in Mohammed since you are a christian,, you dont need to keep that secret

the hypocrites? so far, the hypocrites are the editors of the danish newspaper. we come to europe or US to many reasons, some to live after being persecuted becuase he commented on the government, or to earn money, or to study....

well for me... I dont like hypocrite one bit. the only reason muslims go to the west becuase of those governments the west had installed to keep suppressing and persecuting everyone who says "no Mr.president you are wrong"

believe me when I say no we don't come here to enjoy your hypocrasy, in fact it is very disgusting....

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

cap'n queasy wrote: Glorfindel wrote: snow wrote: Glorfindel wrote: loool ..

is that gonna be your answer to my last question?

I don't know what exactly is bothering you in that comment... is it me asking for capital punishment? or me telling you that I would be angry if a muslim mock Moses or Jesus?

Executing someone who makes fun of a religious figure is the most backwards, ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

those religious figures are more sacred to us muslims than your "freedom of speech" to you

I guess we will have to see about that.

I don't think you are correct, because you dishonor Islam with your statements. Surely it is not that sacred if it is to only be used as a political tool.

I dishonor Islam? would you please elaborate ? and who said that I want it to be used to score some political points?

ALL I"M ASKING FOR FROM THE DANISH NEWSPAPER IS AN APOLOGY AND TO REFREAINE FROM USING ISLAM AS A JOKE...

is that so f***ing wrong?

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

jeechoscopy wrote: It’s difficult to justify a destruction of a house during protesting. This is true and this is absolutely true that protesting is an emotional activity.

When we see Chinese protesting by destruction and throwing stones to the police force… an immediate reaction in your mind responses in favor to the Chinese People rather than the destructed building or the state’s police… Now you see Muslims protesting… and you react according to your feedbacks provided by your media. Thanks media… Thanks hatred… thanks the distinct thought.

It’s really hard that you could translate the feelings of ones attachments to a thing or a person. It’s really very hard and its absolutely true. If you are limited to you children… your sons sent to battlefields and you protest against wars. Holding banners those abuses the president etc, etc… Your attachment to the country can’t be challenged. You again, misunderstand the truth, non-compromise-able hard.

It’s really very hard, really… very… much… hard to let you understand unless you permit the love to Mohammad into your hearts.

Once allow it in your hearts!!

man I'm not even asking them to love Mohammed.. all I'm asking for is respect. just respect our beliefs and religious figures as we do to yours

I'm not the the destruction of property or whatnot.. I just want them to say we are sorry we wont do it again

XxMorningStarxX · Joined: 22 Oct 2005 Posts: 287 Location: XxUndIsCloSedxX

Moath wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote: Yeah they're a bunch of hypocrites- THere's nothing more to say, they have revealed themselves to be the idiots that they are.

You're talking about the Christians? :-|

lol no i'm talking about the danish magazine people.. isn't that what we were talking about????

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

hmmm glorfindel, that is extreme to the point of insanity. to kill for insulting the Prophet would be contradictory. God is Merciful and Forgiving. I say, that the problem with an eye for an eye is that everyone ends up blind.

Violence will not solve this. The Danish paper should apologize, but not made to do so. Every human has free will, and to violate that free will by killing them so that they will not make a descion is evil.

please reconsider your statement. For the good of humanity. and for yourself.

CroChristian · Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 16 Location: Dalmatia

Glorfindel wrote: where did you hear this? from Osama himself? even if such thing is said, do you think those who know best about Islam would let something like that happen?

I did not hear, but I SAW ON TV IN LONDON. Muslims were carying slogans with these "wishes". Now, you can that this is minority but mayrity is fueled by this "fuell". Strong refinery are islamic religious teachers like those from Denmark who went in middle east to fuel hate with those cartoons among which were ones picturing mohammed as pig, pedofile... WHICH WERE NOT PUBLISHED ANYWHERE (it could be that these imamas draw those pictures - I am not saying that thay did, but way they didi it leaves a lot space for speculations)

Glorfindel wrote: well in christianity , maybe you are taught and just got used to the idea of people insulting your God... we are not... in Islam we are taught that if you see something wrong.. you must try to stop it either by action if you can, or declaring your opinion of it , or by denying it by heart and thats the weakest kind of response...

I am not used of insulting. My point here is something else. If you are insulted you should react by rules of HOUSE WHERE YOU LIVE. Muslims in europe live in FREE society and if you are insulted you go to court (land o LAW). Because for islam FREE SOCIETY and STATE BASED ON THE LAW (not sheriyat one) is unimaginable we have this animal reactions around the europe and world.
If you do not obey rules of your host, go back where you came from (my massage for EU muslims).

Glorfindel wrote: Islam insults judaism and christianity... what is this? the joke of the day? in Islam even your religious figures like Moses, David, or Jesus are more honored and respected than they are in your religion. in Islam Moses never told the jews to steal, david never committed adultery, Lut never had incest with his daughters, Jesus never claimed to be a God, and so on and so on

When islam says that Jesus is not son of God and that christians and jews have distorted a word of God, yes that is INSULT FOR ME, but God will deal with that. I wan`t quote bible on this, but I might if you keep going with this false claims based on false book (kuran).
Regarding Lot, read Bible more carefully about that incest.

[/quote="Glorfindel"] ok I'll use your flawless logic and say all who walks on earth should become muslims , otherwise they are insulting Islam... how unreasonable do you think this is?
[quote]
This logic of mine is not as flawless as you might think. If I think that Jesus is son of God and that there is no salvation by any other means and religion, than one who do not think as I am is not insulting me, but GOD.
You can say same thing for islam and mohammed. Someone third could say similar for his believes. We can wait for the Judgement Day to see who has wright.
On the other hand for atheist this is bulls**t and he wants freedom in all aspects. In western world subject of satirical expresion (yes, it is insulting and making mockery) can be ANYTHING, and if you do not like this pack your bags and leave house which you think that is "rotten".

[/quote="Glorfindel"] the only place in all country of Islam that its inhibitants should be all muslims is the arabian peninsula, [quote]
Why should they all be muslims?

[/quote="Glorfindel"] and you can come to Saudi Arabia and involve in a conversation about religions and say that you don't believe in Mohammed... as long as you don't insult him,, you are to believe in what you want.. just dont insult the beliefs of others...
[quote]
:lol: :lol: So my head will stay on my shoulders if I say that mohammed is a false prophet and that koran is a bad plagiarism of Torah and Bible? And this my statement is said in Sudan, Saudi arabia, Indonesia,Lybia... Be serious. Islam wants for itself in other countries something that it is not willing to give others.

[/quote="Glorfindel"] you think and you give percentages but what do you know? nothing.
chrsitains have been in every muslim country with various percentages and they go to church and live their lives as free as they want... but unlike you
[quote]
Those christians have lived there long before isalm came on the scene. They are a fey in numbers and are used as example. This kind of example was used by Stalin when he published Bible in order to show the world how religious freedom is present in the USSR.

[/quote="Glorfindel"] well for me... I dont like hypocrite one bit. the only reason muslims go to the west becuase of those governments the west had installed to keep suppressing and persecuting everyone who says "no Mr.president you are wrong"
Quote:
Interesting... Muslims are running from those dictators to hypoctite Europe and USA. Why do not they protest against those governments which are installed by west? Is it not insulting for islam to have such gov. installed by christians who allow such "blasfemic" and hypocrite newspapres...? Why they do not protest in the same animalistic manner as they do now? Why those gov. do not stop this violence when we know that every protest there is DIRECTED BY REGIMES ON POWER? Because there is only one correct way of behaviour and that is one which is proclamed by dictator. Nearly every arab and muslim country is NOT FREE STATE (west is not your guilty goat) including your Saudi arabia.

WHY YOU DO NOT PROTEST AGAINST THOSE GOVERNMENTS WITH SAME PASSION AS YOU DO AGAINST PICTURES?

By the way, I have found some of these pictures quite good. For example there is mohammed on the entrance of the heaven and thera are line of smoky people which are trying to enter but they are stopped by mohammed who is saying: " STPOP, STOP, we are ran out of VIRGINS".
This is ver good satirical picture which is telling us something about propaganda spread by islamic religious teachers. And this is the way in which FREEDOM OF POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS BELIEVES works in Europe.
Again, if you do not like it go back to your countries run by hypocrite christian gov.

CroChristian · Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 16 Location: Dalmatia

There was some mistakes in my post above. I was in hurry, but I think you will underestand. Last quote is not quote it is mine text. :-D

CroChristian · Joined: 10 Feb 2006 Posts: 16 Location: Dalmatia

jeechoscopy wrote:
When we see Chinese protesting by destruction and throwing stones to the police force… an immediate reaction in your mind responses in favor to the Chinese People rather than the destructed building or the state’s police… Now you see Muslims protesting… and you react according to your feedbacks provided by your media. Thanks media… Thanks hatred… thanks the distinct thought.

How nice said. :clap: :clap:
You are a trully fighter for the rights of the oppressed people. You are new Che.
If there are people who can believe your fairytale (and there are a lot of them in islamic world) your conclusions are right.

But, let us go back to the real world. First Danmark is not chinese police. What a stupid comparison. Can you imagine what brain would compare one of the most free countries of the world (scandinavian countries are on the top of that list) with communist country like china? in the same group of non free countries we can put islamic states including your pakistan.
Second. People who are fighting dictators and other FUNDAMENTALISTS certanly have nothing in common with mob who is calling for killing, cutting heads... and in the SAME TIME HAVE NO COURAGE TO FIGHT AND DEMONSTRATE AGAINST REGIMES IN THEIR COUNTRIES WHICH ARE RESPONSABLE FOR CATASTROPHIC SITUATION IN THEIR COUNTRIES. That mob thinks that animalistic shouting against irrelevant pictures will solve their problems which are deeply rooted with their religion and inability to create normal states.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2055 Location: Somewhere

Glorfindel wrote: Freedom of speech is not such a valid excuse when it comes to cartoons about Jesus, is it?

check this link

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1703501,00.html

by the way, I just found out a few funny things about your sacred freedom of speech and belief

you know that you could sent to prison for three years in Germany if you raise your hand and used the nazi way of greeting

and also in Italy, a soccer player was fined and punished because he raised his hand to greet the fans in a fascist way

so much for your freedom of speech and belief

so pathetic

peace

The laws regarding freedom of speech vary throughout those countries considered part of the western world, and it is an issue that is constantly being debated - people are always testing the limits.

A hundred years ago most western countries considered it a crime to take the Lords name in vein, whilst considering it perfectly legal to use derogatory names when describing various races and ethnic groups. Today the converse is true.

Much has changed in the western world regarding what is and isn’t considered legitimate freedom of speech. One maxim however has always remained true, and that is

Freedom of speech does not grant someone the right to shout “Fire! Fire!” in a crowded theatre.

It has long been acknowledged in the west that there is a fine line between freedom of speech and downright abuse, between freedom of the press and libel; it's never been clear cut. In the west Christian organisations have been known to take to court people and organisations who they believe have vilified them; politicians and companies have taken to court media outlets who they believe have defamed them in some way.

In a democratic and free society every citizen has a right to protest against those things they find offensive, regardless of the nature of the catalyst. It is a right that is extended to those on both sides of the argument.

What has always remained true in the west however is that regardless of the complainant or the nature of the complaint, it is the manner and dignity by which the complainants carry themselves that ultimately determines the legitimacy of their cause - and hence the outcome. Martin Luther King did it, as did Ghandi. The behaviour and response from the world’s Islamic community however has not.

Whilst it’s true that a number of Muslims both on this board and in the world have been highly critical of the way in which Muslim mobs have over-reacted - and it was an over reaction – to the cartoons, the fact remains that this incident has caused more damage to the perception of Islam in the west than could have been achieved by any September 11.

Cheers, Eternal