Political Crossfire Forums

[CroChristian]

Islam teaches that Jesus Christ is not God´s son and that Bible is distorted during time by Jews and Christians and therefore Koran is a true god`s revelation to the mandkind.
Please reade these chapters from Koran:
chapter 2, line 135,137 and 140
charter 5, line 54
chapter 9, line 30 and 31.
This islamic attitude towards christianity is insulting and uncorrect for me as christian, but I do not thik of vengeance and something similar to those muslim demonstrators around the world.
If there is something ( for instance, cartoons of Jesus or christianity) which would demand "vengeance" I leave that to God because bible says that "vengeance belongs to God".
In islam one must not make a mockery of Mohammed. OK, but why you can insult christian beleives of Jesus Christ and Bible? If Christ, for muslims, is not son of Godand Bible is not a trully word of god (YOUR FREE WILL TO BELEIVE SO), than Mohammed for me is not prophet of God and Koran is not word of God (MY FREE WILL TO BELEIVE SO). Therefore islam is liabe to satirical interpretations just like everything in Europe and rest of free world. I must say that I do not like satire about Christ and christianity but I leave that problem to only Judge. Why would islamic standards and beleives be something to which all people should be obedient to? I am certainly not and won´t be.
Muslims are free to practice their religion in Europe.
Can some muslim tell me what will happen if I go to, let say, Damascus, Teheran, Tripoly, Jeddah, Ryad, Dubai... and start conversation with local muslims in which i am saying that mohammed is a false prophet?
I think that we all can guess pretty well.
So, islam can say lies about Jesus and christianity and I am not (or danish artists) allowed to say that Mohammed is a false prophet?
We are dealing here with freedom of religoin and freedom of speech and thought. These freedoms ARE NOT SUPPORTED BY ISLAM. That can be seen in countries where islam is predominant religion where attitude towards islam, which is different from one described in Koran, IS NOT ALLOWED.

[Saracen]

Well, we don't believe that Jesus is a "Son of God" but we believe in him nonetheless as a Prophet to mankind. The Jews don't believe in him at all! Why are you looking at us solely? Muslims are very tolerant towards Christians, contrary to what many people believe. The attitude has always been positive. Christian Arabs already live amongst their Muslim brethren in the Middle East. But I agree with you that the violence is unacceptable. Religious text, when taken into literal context, can mislead people, but when it is studied carefully, it won't lead to such misinterpretation and the actions you see today. In fact, Muslims are like you Christians: we want to live a full life. The rise of radical Muslims came from the intervention of the US. If you came to start a conversation with me about the Prophet, I would listen and talk with you. We believe in constructive religious dialogue. Don't listen to the media. It can mislead you.

[kain]

If there was any doubt about the prophet Mohammad the pope at the Vatican would not recognize him as a messenger from God , in addition the Vatican have always been kind and showed respect to Islam and that goes for one good reason " they believe in him "

[Saracen]

kain wrote: If there was any doubt about the prophet Mohammad the pope at the Vatican would not recognize him as a messenger from God , in addition the Vatican have always been kind and showed respect to Islam and that goes for one good reason " they believe in him "

Likewise, we have shown respect for the Vatican as a place where people of one religion and many different backgrounds can unite in worshipping God. The same can be said about Mecca.

[Muslima]

the problem is, and i am saying it from experience, christians and other non-muslims can't accept an islamic idea or belief because it sometimes goes against their idea or belief!

there is no insult to anybody in the quran, its god's words...how could god insult?!

[Saracen]

Muslima wrote: the problem is, and i am saying it from experience, christians and other non-muslims can't accept an islamic idea or belief because it sometimes goes against their idea or belief!

there is no insult to anybody in the quran, its god's words...how could god insult?!

:clap: Well-said.

[CroChristian]

Moath wrote: Well, we don't believe that Jesus is a "Son of God" but we believe in him nonetheless as a Prophet to mankind. The Jews don't believe in him at all! Why are you looking at us solely? Muslims are very tolerant towards Christians, contrary to what many people believe. The attitude has always been positive. Christian Arabs already live amongst their Muslim brethren in the Middle East. But I agree with you that the violence is unacceptable. Religious text, when taken into literal context, can mislead people, but when it is studied carefully, it won't lead to such misinterpretation and the actions you see today. In fact, Muslims are like you Christians: we want to live a full life. The rise of radical Muslims came from the intervention of the US. If you came to start a conversation with me about the Prophet, I would listen and talk with you. We believe in constructive religious dialogue. Don't listen to the media. It can mislead you.

First, I do not blindly listen to the media. Those christians who you mentioned (Arab christians, in egypt...) were there before islam and they are few in numbers. My point is that today is impossible to go in islamic state (Saudi Arabia, Sudan,...) and proclame christianity, on the contrary in Europe and USA islam can be practiced without problems. For example, in my country Croatia islam is recognized by our Constitution (only 4 european coutryes have done this so far and Croatia and Austria have done it 100 years ago).
Tell me what will happen to me if I go with Bible to Saudi Arabia and start conversation with local muslims and in that conversation I say that Mohammed is a false prophet?
Your attitude towards nonviolence is not something that majority of islam world shares with you.
Regarding Mohammed I said what I think of him, so I do not have need to elaborate on that subject any further. I have my believes and you yours. And I agree that we disagree about that.
You said that rise of radical muslims came after US intervention. I thought that thay came on the scene in 1948 (even before that).

Muslima wrote: there is no insult to anybody in the quran, its god's words...how could god insult?!
Problem is that quran is NOT A WORD OF GOD TO ME. In the Bible there is warning which says that we should beaware of those who will came and preach some other Gospel. But, nevertheless my reaction on islam is far from reaction of 90% of muslims around the world.

My opinion is that islam can not make a good foundation for a NORMAL, FREE STATE. As we can see today there is no one normal islamic state (human rights and various other freedoms).

[Orions]

I will leave the problem of believing in Mohammed, Jesus or anyone else for that matter. This is a personal issue and there is no point discussing it. However...

The point with peacefullness of Islam is based on the same problem as other political or religius doctrines... interpretation. We have the Koran with its original version and many translations (often misleading). From what I read I can say that Islam practiced as the Koran dictates is a very peaceful and tolerant religion. But now see the contrast between that teachings and real life. The same can be said about my faith... in the Bibe Christianity is a religion based on love, charity, mercy and so on. Now compare this to the real world. And so on and so on.

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Muslima wrote: the problem is, and i am saying it from experience, christians and other non-muslims can't accept an islamic idea or belief because it sometimes goes against their idea or belief!

there is no insult to anybody in the quran, its god's words...how could god insult?!

"The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom."

This quote from the Koran seems to say that people who don't
believe is deaf, dumb, blind and void of wisdom. That is certainly
an insult !

[Orions]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: "The parable of those who reject Faith is as if one were to shout Like a goat- herd, to things that listen to nothing but calls and cries: Deaf, dumb, and blind, they are void of wisdom."

This quote from the Koran seems to say that people who don't
believe is deaf, dumb, blind and void of wisdom. That is certainly
an insult !

I believe the quote You mentioned is the verse 171 from Chapter 2, in Yusuf Ali translation. But let's look at other translations of the same verse, let's see the broader view:

Pickthall translation:
"The likeness of those who disbelieve (in relation to the messenger) is as the likeness of one who calleth unto that which heareth naught except a shout and cry. Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no sense."

Khalifa translation:
"The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand."

Now, let's look at the previous verse (2:170):

Khalifa translation:
"When they are told, "Follow what GOD has revealed herein," they say, "We follow only what we found our parents doing." What if their parents did not understand, and were not guided?"

Now, I am by no means an expert on Islam or anything, but to me it seems (logically) that it rather refers to people not believing in God at all, regardless whether You call Him Allah, or anything else. I, as a Christian don't personally feel insulted. But on the other hand I admit that an atheist might well take offence... (however, almost any religion criticizes atheists, it seems kind of logical).

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Orions wrote: Now, I am by no means an expert on Islam or anything, but to me it seems (logically) that it rather refers to people not believing in God at all, regardless whether You call Him Allah, or anything else. I, as a Christian don't personally feel insulted. But on the other hand I admit that an atheist might well take offence... (however, almost any religion criticizes atheists, it seems kind of logical).

Well I do not belive in any god, so you can argue that the Koran
is insulting me. Now if Islam is insulting me then I should have
the right to insult Islam, for example by drawing Mohammed....

[Orions]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Well I do not belive in any god, so you can argue that the Koran is insulting me. Now if Islam is insulting me then I should have the right to insult Islam, for example by drawing Mohammed....

Logically thinking, point for you... but I think that the example you chose was not a good one. You definitely have the right to draw anything you wish. But don't you think that doing something, well anything with the single purpose to insult anyone or anything is, well... pointless? I mean, what is the goal? I accept that caricatures are drawn with the purpose to provoke laughter, maybe to discredit something or someone - balancing on the line of good taste is quite another thing, but let's leave that. Nevertheless they are drawn for a specific reason. My point is, I don't see the reason in insulting anyone / anything - any decent reason that is.

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Orions wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Well I do not belive in any god, so you can argue that the Koran is insulting me. Now if Islam is insulting me then I should have the right to insult Islam, for example by drawing Mohammed....

Logically thinking, point for you... but I think that the example you chose was not a good one. You definitely have the right to draw anything you wish. But don't you think that doing something, well anything with the single purpose to insult anyone or anything is, well... pointless? I mean, what is the goal? I accept that caricatures are drawn with the purpose to provoke laughter, maybe to discredit something or someone - balancing on the line of good taste is quite another thing, but let's leave that. Nevertheless they are drawn for a specific reason. My point is, I don't see the reason in insulting anyone / anything - any decent reason that is.

I prefer to argue with words and not pictures, but if the religion of
Islam is offensive then muslims should accept that other people
offend their religion. Otherwise they are saying that they can offend
other people but no one can offend them.

That being said the guy who published the cartoons in Norway is
a hypocrite. The same newspaper would not publish something
who could be offending to christians. Having the right to publish
something does not mean you should.

[Orions]

Yup, let's drink to that. I hope sometimes people will understand that being able to do something does not mean one should do it.