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Hamas shock victory poses new Middle East challenge

Chris McGreal in Gaza City
Friday January 27, 2006
The Guardian

Hamas won a crushing victory in the Palestinian parliamentary elections as results yesterday showed it had swept away Fatah's 40-year monopoly of power, presenting a challenge to western policy towards "terrorist organisations".

Israel's acting prime minister, Ehud Olmert, joined the US, Britain and other countries in calling on the Islamist group, which has killed hundreds of people in suicide bombings, to renounce violence and its goal of destroying Israel if it wants international recognition.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1696032,00.html

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Even though I'm a Palestinian, I don't fully approve of Hamas getting themselves a majority government. Despite the state of Israel's numerous crimes against humanity, Hamas's victory spells disaster for the Palestinians. This victory would be used as an excuse by the Israelis to further set up roadblocks and the Wall.

However, I am pretty sure that Hamas will stick to a political agenda. The IRA of Northern Ireland already has begun entering politics. There are also the Taliban of Afghanistan, who have made their presidential bids. Seeing this extremist trend seems to be obvious: the results come from Western criticism of these groups. Thus, these groups would gain popularity among their people. Only time will tell if Hamas is sticking to a truly political agenda. Hopefully, they will, as stated in several press conferences over the past few days. If they do, this will gain more international recognition for the state of Palestine and the plight of the Palestinians. +p

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I would think that moving into the political realm would be a step up for Hamas or the IRA or any other organization classified as a terrorist organization, its even happening in chiapas Mexico.

but Hamas saying it would not cooperate with peace efforts just goes to show that it is behaving like a virus and trying to collapse the system from the inside.

I think that if time is to be alloted on Israels behaf (a wise approach in my opinion), the results wont be any better. I hate to say it but i think the move Israel will probably take will be a step back into the palestinian territories with military force. because an organization sworn to bring down Israel wont make it a good neighbor.

I dont think Hamas won a just a political victory, they simultaneously put Israel in check. Without stable leaders on either side, this wont be pretty

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

hobobahk wrote: I would think that moving into the political realm would be a step up for Hamas or the IRA or any other organization classified as a terrorist organization, its even happening in chiapas Mexico.

but Hamas saying it would not cooperate with peace efforts just goes to show that it is behaving like a virus and trying to collapse the system from the inside.

I think that if time is to be alloted on Israels behaf (a wise approach in my opinion), the results wont be any better. I hate to say it but i think the move Israel will probably take will be a step back into the palestinian territories with military force. because an organization sworn to bring down Israel wont make it a good neighbor.

I dont think Hamas won a just a political victory, they simultaneously put Israel in check. Without stable leaders on either side, this wont be pretty

I agree, but I'd like to reiterate what I said on this other post:

I wrote: Even though the election of Hamas (which I view both negatively and positively) would "disturb the peace process" and bring about Israeli excuses to step up the oppression, I have another take on the issue as well...

The Israelis were oppressing the Palestinian population for long enough. The only government that ever represented the Palestinians were Fatah and the PA, who have proved themselves to be nothing more than mere s*ckups to the Israeli government.

The Fatah and the PA haven't done a lot in expressing the pain and suffering of the Palestinian people and confront the Israeli govt. with this outrageous evil. The Israeli govt. kept the s*ckups occupied with money and focused them more on the every-now-and-then suicide bombers that go about with their less than honorable acts.

The Palestinians need a govt. to represent them and acknowledge the suffering that has been going on for the past fifty years and more. They didn't elect Fatah and the PA because they stunk with corruption, and both parties focused on their own selfish desires more than the troubles facing the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have made their choice. They didn't choose politicians, but they chose statesmen. They chose people who would serve their countrymen and account for the atrocities that have been going on. They chose a govt. that would not s*ck up to the Israelis. Hamas may be a body that commits less than honorable acts, but the Israelis have committed atrocities that would make a Nazi noob blush. I'm not comparing the Israelis to the Nazis, but they seem to be getting there for all their racism and their policies of apartheid and torture. Following this logic, it is the fault of the actions of the Israelis that Hamas was elected to power. The illusion that Israelis want peace is exactly what it is: an illusion.

The Palestinians have woken up. They have chosen a government that would bring about more global awareness to the Palestinian people, and also would help rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure, and are committed to setting things straight with the Israelis who have been doing nothing but counterproductively attacking Palestinians and disturbed the peace. If Hamas can bring about the oppression and make the world more aware of the atrocity against the Palestinian people, this alone will bring about more awareness and re-establish the so-called peace process, as well as bringing about a change for once.

As for why the Palestinians resist in such less-than-honorable ways, this picture couldn't be more clearer:

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I like to keep an open mind and have been following alot of your posts. i like you, im new to the whole concept of web forums.

I dont want to sound like a peace hippy but what i think the problem is is that Palestine never had leaders willing to play hardball negotiations. Israel tries to squeeze them in the peace talks (as most peace talks go) and Palestinean Leaders can't fight back. so they resort to what your picture describes and they wont stop it because suicide bombers get the message across that Palestineans arent happy. and by electing Hamas they say it out loud once again.

Do we blame Israel for this? Or does it fall on the shoulders of Palestines previous leaders? Or both? what do you think?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

hobobahk wrote: I like to keep an open mind and have been following alot of your posts. i like you, im new to the whole concept of web forums.
Your welcome. :)
I dont want to sound like a peace hippy but what i think the problem is is that Palestine never had leaders willing to play hardball negotiations. Israel tries to squeeze them in the peace talks (as most peace talks go) and Palestinean Leaders can't fight back. so they resort to what your picture describes and they wont stop it because suicide bombers get the message across that Palestineans arent happy. and by electing Hamas they say it out loud once again.

Do we blame Israel for this? Or does it fall on the shoulders of Palestines previous leaders? Or both? what do you think?

Well, there is a blame on both sides. From my point of view, I can see that the previous leaders of the PA are to blame for their corruption, embezzlement, fraud, and not to mention unwillingness to serve their people, but the Israelis receive the further blame because of all they have done in the past 50 years (atrocities, etc.) and, now that the Palestinians have a voice, they chose the people who really care for them: Hamas. Hamas, however, is not entirely militaristic, but they are campaigners, and a lot of its members are peaceful and you won't find them just holding guns in the streets (from what the Western media usually shows you) but waving flags and keeping hope for a free Palestine.

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I dont profess to know alot about Hamas but if what you say is true then someone if bound to break the ice. It will also be a matter of holding back. because the blame game can go either way if violence erupts again. I think this time the world will be watching Hamas and waiting so see what they do. Hopefully Israel waits as well because the whole region is on thin ice.

do you think that if Israel doesnt strike, Hamas will keep Palestineans from attacking Israel? or at least take action against it? because what i think makes the situation worse is the palestinian reaction to suicide bombers. almost a sence of pride calling it martyrdom. I think if Hamas were to denounce the suicide attacks much more progress will be made.
how did you feel when (i cant believe i forgot his name) the Israeli guy got on the bus and started shooting at people. (i can't believe i forgot his name and im in a hurry so i can't quite look it up, he was the ex-soldier who went AWOL). I think that Israel showed a good example by denouncing him. i believe he wasnt ever buried in the same cementary as the rest of his family members.
Im not saying these are the facts but i think if people denounced suicide attacks they would occur less often.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

hobobahk wrote: I dont profess to know alot about Hamas but if what you say is true then someone if bound to break the ice. It will also be a matter of holding back. because the blame game can go either way if violence erupts again. I think this time the world will be watching Hamas and waiting so see what they do. Hopefully Israel waits as well because the whole region is on thin ice.

Well, Hamas has a lot of time to rebuild the Palestinian infrastructure and show the world that it is really pursuing peace. Let's just hope the Israelis do as well, and that the other, more peaceful side of Hamas is shown.

Quote: do you think that if Israel doesnt strike, Hamas will keep Palestineans from attacking Israel? or at least take action against it? because what i think makes the situation worse is the palestinian reaction to suicide bombers. almost a sence of pride calling it martyrdom. I think if Hamas were to denounce the suicide attacks much more progress will be made.

Hopefully, they will. Hamas does most of the attacks to begin with. But this martyrdom thing is used to mislead them into attacking this way, and let's just hope it does denounce and forget about such less-than-honorable ways of resistance.

Quote: how did you feel when (i cant believe i forgot his name) the Israeli guy got on the bus and started shooting at people. (i can't believe i forgot his name and im in a hurry so i can't quite look it up, he was the ex-soldier who went AWOL). I think that Israel showed a good example by denouncing him. i believe he wasnt ever buried in the same cementary as the rest of his family members.

Oh, that happened, and it was purely diabolical. But the Israelis didn't do a good job in denouncing the acts of their soldiers and the acts of the settlers (who happen to be extremists) that kill innocents and uproot trees.

Quote: Im not saying these are the facts but i think if people denounced suicide attacks they would occur less often.

That's alright. You're doing a good job so far debating. :)
It's hard for the Palestinians themselves to denounce suicide bombings when they are under oppression and being killed off every day.

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

"Oh, that happened, and it was purely diabolical. But the Israelis didn't do a good job in denouncing the acts of their soldiers and the acts of the settlers (who happen to be extremists) that kill innocents and uproot trees. "

the settlers got what was coming to them with the withdrawal, or atleast Sharon got a bad rap and a slap in the face. still, in a sence Sharon tried to fix his errors of the past of violating palestinean territory.
if Hamas were to halt their contribution to the suicide attacks (who are carried out by extremists in my view) and recognize the responsibility they've taken by stepping heavily into politics, a responsibility as a government to work in the best interests of its people, a resolution could become much more palpable.

extremists seem to be the problem with the world today. im invisioning a 'leper colony' like setting where we could send them all with some camera men and let them solve their problems their own way. that would be real entertainment!

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I love this. why did it take me so long to discover forums like this?!
:woo: <---these things can be soo entertaining

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Quote: the settlers got what was coming to them with the withdrawal, or atleast Sharon got a bad rap and a slap in the face. still, in a sence Sharon tried to fix his errors of the past of violating palestinean territory.
if Hamas were to halt their contribution to the suicide attacks (who are carried out by extremists in my view) and recognize the responsibility they've taken by stepping heavily into politics, a responsibility as a government to work in the best interests of its people, a resolution could become much more palpable.

I agree. However, the pullout from Gaza diverted the attention towards the West Bank settlements that were continuously popping up.

Quote: extremists seem to be the problem with the world today. im invisioning a 'leper colony' like setting where we could send them all with some camera men and let them solve their problems their own way. that would be real entertainment!

That too. Extremists are on both sides. If there were no extremists, we would have no such trouble. It's just that extremists have the loudest voice and are usually the ones in power, whether you like it or not.

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I definatly agree that Sharon pulled out of gaza to keep people in the west bank, i also think however that if violance is to break out again thats where its going to be. I think Sharon should have pulled out of west bank even though gaza was more problematic because the west bank would have been a more powerful symbol so close to jerusalem

tell me about extremists
i live in a College town in NH. the people around here couldnt be more blue if they were depressed.
I have Family in the Midwest. My favorite game to play when i visit them is "spot the contradicting churches en route to the rifle derby"

I dont like being in the middle because im located in such a slanted area everyone paints me as a hardcore conservative. like fox. they dont know how bad conservative is.

"That too. Extremists are on both sides. If there were no extremists, we would have no such trouble. It's just that extremists have the loudest voice and are usually the ones in power, whether you like it or not."

I dont know where you are from but here in america, the loudest are the ones in control of the media, the democrats. for me to express how i feel about the US media publicly, I'd have to join howard stern in space to avoid being fined for profanity.

Nelson · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject:

I love how anyone can act as though Palestinians are somehow forced into a life of purposely trying to kill children because Israel made them that way. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

a. not all palestineans wake up thinking "hmm how can i kill Israeli children today"

b. its a vicious circle. go ahead throw some blame, they blew up this! well they blew it up because they bulldozed this! well they bulldozed it because people there blew up that...

I love how people assume that the Jews were given Israel and the right to Mash over the houses or people living there already.
Both Sides cause problems. we can't asume either side is entirely at fault nor can we say either side is entirely bad. Whats sad is how people see the news and say "oh hell another mall blew up" while a week before shrugging off a housing develoment being smashed to make housing for people who dont own the land. whats keeping this a problem is the other 50% of the people who get P.O. at the housing being destroyed and shrug off the suicide bomb.
I DONT love how people can act either way. because its a one sided approach.
its a vicious circle. think it through. its been ongoing so long that the problem isnt who stopped it. the problem is who is going to step up to the plate and stop it. thats what this whole thread it about. whether Hamas is going to change or not. its not a sympathy party for either side. dont pique up as though it is.

Nelson · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:15 pm Post subject:

It is not a vicious circle.

If tomorrow the Palestinians stopped suicide bombings, Israel would stop any and all attacks.

If tomorrow Israel stopped any attacks, Palestinians would continue to try to force Israel into the sea.

That isn't a circle, a cycle, or in any way 'nobody's fault'.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

Nelson wrote: I love how anyone can act as though Palestinians are somehow forced into a life of purposely trying to kill children because Israel made them that way. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

They are not just forced to kill in so less-than-honorable ways, but they have seen the horrible actions committed by the Israelis to start with.
It wouldn't be funny at all.

hobobahk · Joined: 25 Jan 2006 Posts: 175 Location: at my computer

I didnt say it was nobody's fault.
contrarily its everybody's fault. you act as though 100% of the suiside bombers are part of an organization. when in reality the numbers are around 40%.
its individuals who've lost homes or family members who go Awol and do it all themselves. you know its not an Organization when they are hours away from a pece agreement.
you're right its not a vicious circle. its a vicious wreath. we know Israel wants to stop but they wont be compelled to if another suicide attack takes place. and with all the people in Palestine who've lost family members and homes. thats alot of little time bombs waiting for their turn.
so it comes back to what Moath and I were disscussing: this will only work if Hamas cracks down.
Nelson if nothing happens. no suicide attacks. how long would it last until Israel got curious?
both sides are wrong. both sides need to stop. you sound as if Israel is a white handed innocent who doesnt know what to do. its not. Israel is a capable nuclear nation with a very sophisticated army. dont pretend as though they dont use it

b_moh · Joined: 25 Oct 2005 Posts: 168 Location: Alberta

Well this is a nice little change :clap: lol

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15867 Location: On Earth

b_moh wrote: Well this is a nice little change :clap: lol

It's both a good and a bad change. We'll have to wait and see.

WesternWall · Joined: 30 Jan 2006 Posts: 138 Location: Calif

hobobahk wrote: a. not all palestineans wake up thinking "hmm how can i kill Israeli children today"

Well, a majority woke up and voted for hamas which does kill Isaeli children. Until you look at the majority, you will not be able to understand palestinians.

Quote: b. its a vicious circle. go ahead throw some blame, they blew up this! well they blew it up because they bulldozed this! well they bulldozed it because people there blew up that...

As was stated above, if Palestinians put down their weapons, there would be no violence. If Israel put down its weapons, there would be no Israel.