Political Crossfire Forums

[Sailor Moon]

cassandrabandra wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: .... I found this really great article on the Fathers feelings, and it makes me feel sorry for fathers in general... Theyre often stygmatized by the more negative images of guys like my own kids dad- deadbeats, emotionally underconfident, unbalanced, unloving, absent, needing the mothers direction to be any good at parenting.. not having intuition..

Well, just because some dads are like this, doesnt speak for the majority. And there are just as many mothers out there who are just as bad!!! Its really unfair to the majority of fathers to be treated like the less desirable few...

Even if some Dads are like this, what is so bad about being emotionally underconfident or needing the mother's direction to be any good a parenting? In my experience if you are 'locked out' you don't get the chance to develop your confidence and abilities. If these (and even being a deadbeat and maybe a few other of these qualities doesn't make a Dad bad) are reasons for stygmatizing Dads, they are also good reasons for encouraging men to get involved with their kids.

I've never met a perfect parent - so I don't see why men who aren't perfect should be stygmatized.

I encourage my kids dad to take part in his life all the time, but hes a true deadbeat, who doesnt WANT to be involved, at least thats how my son feels most of the time. Hes 7, and the three times hes seen his dad, I took him to see him, and 2 out of three of the visits were cut short by his dad, so dont tell me that deadbeats are locked out by anyone other than themselves, ok? And dont tell me that its not adults who have had absent fathers and talk openly about it, that are "Wrong" for thinking their fathers were bad (or their mothers, for that matter)... I never said its wrong to be emotionally underconfident or needing the womans guidance to be a better dad, I was using that as an example of how all men tend to be generalized into a single category of being emotionally or physically absent, and needing guidance in order to be worthy parents. Well, this just isnt the case. Nobody is bashing imperfection here. We are bashing the sexist generalizations that feminist companies push on men, and the general stygma that follows.

[cassandrabandra]

Sailor Moon wrote: cassandrabandra wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: .... I found this really great article on the Fathers feelings, and it makes me feel sorry for fathers in general... Theyre often stygmatized by the more negative images of guys like my own kids dad- deadbeats, emotionally underconfident, unbalanced, unloving, absent, needing the mothers direction to be any good at parenting.. not having intuition..

Well, just because some dads are like this, doesnt speak for the majority. And there are just as many mothers out there who are just as bad!!! Its really unfair to the majority of fathers to be treated like the less desirable few...

Even if some Dads are like this, what is so bad about being emotionally underconfident or needing the mother's direction to be any good a parenting? In my experience if you are 'locked out' you don't get the chance to develop your confidence and abilities. If these (and even being a deadbeat and maybe a few other of these qualities doesn't make a Dad bad) are reasons for stygmatizing Dads, they are also good reasons for encouraging men to get involved with their kids.

I've never met a perfect parent - so I don't see why men who aren't perfect should be stygmatized.

I encourage my kids dad to take part in his life all the time, but hes a true deadbeat, who doesnt WANT to be involved, at least thats how my son feels most of the time. Hes 7, and the three times hes seen his dad, I took him to see him, and 2 out of three of the visits were cut short by his dad, so dont tell me that deadbeats are locked out by anyone other than themselves, ok? And dont tell me that its not adults who have had absent fathers and talk openly about it, that are "Wrong" for thinking their fathers were bad (or their mothers, for that matter)... I never said its wrong to be emotionally underconfident or needing the womans guidance to be a better dad, I was using that as an example of how all men tend to be generalized into a single category of being emotionally or physically absent, and needing guidance in order to be worthy parents. Well, this just isnt the case. Nobody is bashing imperfection here. We are bashing the sexist generalizations that feminist companies push on men, and the general stygma that follows.

honeybun, I'm not arguing with you - I think that mothers aren't perfect, so why should we expect Dads to be? That was my point.

re your kids Dad. Its his loss. And sometimes, you've got to let people choose to be losers.

[Sailor Moon]

Thanks. I was pretty unsure about what you meant by all that.

Actually, both of them are having loss because of this, but I think its having a big impact on my son. It must be hard to be ignored by his daddy, simply because he has "more important things to do". I cant imagine how awful my son feels.. but I can see that he acts out alot around other boys and is desperate for a male role model in his life.. even if its another kid... its really tough on him..

Plus, his dad never remarried, and by the way he acts around me, flirtatious, I mean, I get the feeling he never got over me, so I am sure he is having trouble separating his feelings for me with his feelings for his son, and his girlfriends.. and of course, that totally annoys the crap out of me, too.. haha... after all, I divorced him because he was needy and controlling, not to mention abusive.. some things never change, I guess...

Oh well.

We'll figure something out. :-)

[klbzs]

Mycroft147 wrote: I dont think there is any reason for feminism in America

In my opinion, Feminism as a movement/state of mind will disappear from this country when both of the following conditions are met:

a) Women stop assuming that a man who holds the door open for her thinks she’s too weak to do it herself;
b) Men stop congratulating themselves for both doing the laundry and letting their partner be who they want to be.

[AmericaFirst]

klbzs wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: I dont think there is any reason for feminism in America

In my opinion, Feminism as a movement/state of mind will disappear from this country when both of the following conditions are met:

a) Women stop assuming that a man who holds the door open for her thinks she’s too weak to do it herself;
b) Men stop congratulating themselves for both doing the laundry and letting their partner be who they want to be.


I agree with A) but not completely with B).

I hold doors open for guys too, not just women - it's called "manners" (at least how I was raised)

If you read the whole thread (and it isn't very long so I am assuming you did), you may be commenting on my post regarding the things I do around the house(?). My wife and I talked it over and decided we didn't want kids so she would stay home with them. This was the case for several reasons: 1) because of the field I chose to enter, I make more money than she did and we couldn't survive on her income alone - we can on mine. If she had chosen a different profession that paid more, this might not be the case and I would be a "stay at home Dad". 2) She wants to be a stay at home Mom - she has EVERY intention of returning to work when our kids are in school but for now, and for the most part, she enjoys being at home. 3) We wanted to breastfeed our kids for a year and, as a male, my breasts are useless in that regard - some may say we could've fed our children by bottle but our son REFUSED to take a bottle at 4 months...

If I "congratulate" myself for doing laundry (and everything else I do at home), it's because including my commute, I am gone from the house for 11+ hours a day and the fact that I still head down the basement and throw in a load and clean the litter boxes and then make dinner SHOULD be commended. I know a lot of "breadwinners" (including women with "stay at home dad" husbands) who can't say the same thing....

[Sailor Moon]

Ha!

I saw something on UPN (liberal media) stating that a recent poll amongst men showed that more than 70% of men who open doors only do it for "ogling" purposes..

www.dailybuzz.tv/weblinks.php

[AmericaFirst]

Sailor Moon wrote: Ha!

I saw something on UPN (liberal media) stating that a recent poll amongst men showed that more than 70% of men who open doors only do it for "ogling" purposes..

www.dailybuzz.tv/weblinks.php

Nah, I've held the door for some pretty unpleasant looking people of both sexes and I am strictly hetero too.... :shock:

[Sailor Moon]

Not to mention this:

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2006-01-18-schadenfreude-study_x.htm

And an added bonus, good old liberal media at its best:

http://www.thetrackerforyou.com/

OT, but this is kinda neat:

http://www.odt.org/Pictures/poplcart.jpg

This is a good one on the pill:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/article336272.ece

But heres the forum, might have this topic (holding doors..)

http://www.dailybuzz.tv/forums/viewforum.php?f=1&sid=416e6eef3ea438f1f1fabf04bbb2a805

[klbzs]

AmericaFirst wrote: klbzs wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: I dont think there is any reason for feminism in America

In my opinion, Feminism as a movement/state of mind will disappear from this country when both of the following conditions are met:

a) Women stop assuming that a man who holds the door open for her thinks she’s too weak to do it herself;
b) Men stop congratulating themselves for both doing the laundry and letting their partner be who they want to be.


I agree with A) but not completely with B).

I hold doors open for guys too, not just women - it's called "manners" (at least how I was raised)

If you read the whole thread (and it isn't very long so I am assuming you did), you may be commenting on my post regarding the things I do around the house(?). My wife and I talked it over and decided we didn't want kids so she would stay home with them. This was the case for several reasons: 1) because of the field I chose to enter, I make more money than she did and we couldn't survive on her income alone - we can on mine. If she had chosen a different profession that paid more, this might not be the case and I would be a "stay at home Dad". 2) She wants to be a stay at home Mom - she has EVERY intention of returning to work when our kids are in school but for now, and for the most part, she enjoys being at home. 3) We wanted to breastfeed our kids for a year and, as a male, my breasts are useless in that regard - some may say we could've fed our children by bottle but our son REFUSED to take a bottle at 4 months...

If I "congratulate" myself for doing laundry (and everything else I do at home), it's because including my commute, I am gone from the house for 11+ hours a day and the fact that I still head down the basement and throw in a load and clean the litter boxes and then make dinner SHOULD be commended. I know a lot of "breadwinners" (including women with "stay at home dad" husbands) who can't say the same thing....

You mention doing the laundry as an illustration of your personal sharing relationship with your wife. I meant it in a more general way. When my parents gave me and my husband a washing machine for Christmas one year, my sister asked, “So, will your husband be mad that he didn’t get anything?” When that question never even enters her mind, or anyone else’s mind to ask, feminism as such will be obsolete.

B) was also not meant to say “let your wife be who she wants”—you are right, it is clear from your posts you do. I’m saying that if it became so commonplace that it doesn’t even merit mentioning, we would not need feminism. Am I making the distinction clear?

I hold the door open for both sexes also. If there is any reaction at all, it’s surprise. Not sure whether it’s because I’m a woman doing it, or because anyone does it at all anymore.

The ogling statistic is funny, Sailor Moon!

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote: The idea is getting men more comfortable with the fact that women ARE just as athletic, just as tough, just as strong, and just as aggressive as they are.

Okay. Alright. Go find any women you want. Put her in the Octagon in a fight against Ken Shamrock, Rich Franklin, or Chuck Liddell. What do you honestly think is going to happen?

[AmericaFirst]

klbzs - agreed completely. In fact, I am shocked there is still that kind of thinking out there ("is your husband mad he didn't get anything")! I consider that kind of thinking absurd. There is NO household or parenting task that my wife does that is "beneath" me - I actually prefer to do the laundry and stuff when I'm down stairs doing something else (olr by itself). Call me a multi-tasker. I sew my own buttons and darn my own socks too. My wife has stuff she prefers to do but that doesn't mean it is exclusively hers - for example, vaccuming. I leave the house before 7 a.m. every day and don't get home until at least 6 p.m. - my wife does a lot of the vaccuming and cleaning because it is more convenient for her to do it while our son naps during the day - we have a baby on the way so that may become one of my tasks as well. She is going to have her hands even fuller than she does now.

That said, I do have friends who have the attitude "I am the breadwinner, I do outside yard work - nothing inside the house is my responsibility". I think that line of thought is ridiculous too. In a marriage, at least in mine, it is a partnership. 100% and we each pick up the slack in different areas.

As far as feminism goes, I have NOTHING against it (and can call myself a feminist) if it means equal opportunity for ALL and equal pay for equal work. When I say "equal opportunity" though, I DO NOT mean giving X person or Y person preference because they were "held down" for years. To me, that is descrimination and wrong.

[Enoch]

The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

Has this ever been tested in olympic trials?

I didnt think so, so you need to stop pretending.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

Has this ever been tested in olympic trials?

I didnt think so, so you need to stop pretending.

Pretending what? Pretending that men are, physically, stronger as a whole than women? There is no pretense there, just biology.

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

Has this ever been tested in olympic trials?

I didnt think so, so you need to stop pretending.

Pretending what? Pretending that men are, physically, stronger as a whole than women? There is no pretense there, just biology.

In general, sure, but Olympic women are generally stronger than men, in general, too, so thats moot. I suggest you prove to me that a woman cannot be stronger than a man. After all, this silly notion is your idea, not mine.

Wanna arm wrestle?

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

Has this ever been tested in olympic trials?

I didnt think so, so you need to stop pretending.

Pretending what? Pretending that men are, physically, stronger as a whole than women? There is no pretense there, just biology.

In general, sure, but Olympic women are generally stronger than men, in general, too, so thats moot. I suggest you prove to me that a woman cannot be stronger than a man. After all, this silly notion is your idea, not mine.

Wanna arm wrestle?

Thank you for agreeing with me. :-)

Our whole point was that women are, as a whole, not as physically strong as men. You just agreed, thank you. :-)

[The Grandmaster]

UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:
About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.


I know this is OT, but are you serious? Do you truly mean to claim that the strongest women are as strong as the strongest men, or they can be? Are you being serious? Why would you make such a claim?

I don't get it either GM. Sure, there are some incredibly strong women out there who could outlift many, many, men. But, for sheer physical size and potential strength, men are stronger than women on a whole.

Has this ever been tested in olympic trials?

I didnt think so, so you need to stop pretending.

Pretending what? Pretending that men are, physically, stronger as a whole than women? There is no pretense there, just biology.

In general, sure, but Olympic women are generally stronger than men, in general, too, so thats moot. I suggest you prove to me that a woman cannot be stronger than a man. After all, this silly notion is your idea, not mine.

Wanna arm wrestle?

Thank you for agreeing with me. :-)

Our whole point was that women are, as a whole, not as physically strong as men. You just agreed, thank you. :-)

:owned: