Political Crossfire Forums

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 9:55 am Post subject:

Perhaps. But unless you want women competing with men in the track and field, wrestling, weightlifting, and boxing, perhaps some segregation is necessary.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Perhaps. But unless you want women competing with men in the track and field, wrestling, weightlifting, and boxing, perhaps some segregation is necessary.
What is the problem?

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

Helena` wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Perhaps. But unless you want women competing with men in the track and field, wrestling, weightlifting, and boxing, perhaps some segregation is necessary.
What is the problem?

For one thing, would it be a fair competition to put a female weightlifter up against a male weightlifter? Sexist or not, men have larger body masses and the potential for more muscle mass and density than do women. Therefore, it is highly likely that a peak male weightlifter would be stronger, and able to life more, than a peak female weightlifter.

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:29 am Post subject:

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Perhaps. But unless you want women competing with men in the track and field, wrestling, weightlifting, and boxing, perhaps some segregation is necessary.

But beyond that. Where I live, outside of Boston, Massachusetts, USA, there have been several cases that perfectly illustrate what I mean. One was of a boy who, for whatever reason, wanted to play field hockey - he was denied as it is a "girls sport" and being a male would give him some sort of advantage (he was a slightly built male at that). Yet in NUMEROUS cases women are allowed to play CONTACT football and hockey and baseball and everything else. Why is THAT fair (especially considering the fact that most males I know, including me, would NEVER lay a shoulder into a woman - even on the football field - thus ruining the sport)?

It falls into the same category of "it's ok for their to be women-only or hispanic-only or African American-only organizations but not all white males" - we would be called the Klan. Yes, I am FULLY aware that women and minorities have been held back and disadvantaged for hundreds of years and it is HORRIBLE - but do two wrongs make a right?

I KNOW I will get some of you saying "yes, it does" - regardless of your use of those exact words...

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Why is it always a man and a woman in figure skating?

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

AmericaFirst wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Perhaps. But unless you want women competing with men in the track and field, wrestling, weightlifting, and boxing, perhaps some segregation is necessary.

But beyond that. Where I live, outside of Boston, Massachusetts, USA, there have been several cases that perfectly illustrate what I mean. One was of a boy who, for whatever reason, wanted to play field hockey - he was denied as it is a "girls sport" and being a male would give him some sort of advantage (he was a slightly built male at that). Yet in NUMEROUS cases women are allowed to play CONTACT football and hockey and baseball and everything else. Why is THAT fair (especially considering the fact that most males I know, including me, would NEVER lay a shoulder into a woman - even on the football field - thus ruining the sport)?

It falls into the same category of "it's ok for their to be women-only or hispanic-only or African American-only organizations but not all white males" - we would be called the Klan. Yes, I am FULLY aware that women and minorities have been held back and disadvantaged for hundreds of years and it is HORRIBLE - but do two wrongs make a right?

I KNOW I will get some of you saying "yes, it does" - regardless of your use of those exact words...
I definately see where you're coming from, a lot of time I see women protesting inequality, but many people don't even realize that men are discrimminated against in many ways in our society as well, though not neccessarially economically, in the society there is a lot of things that women can do that is seen as "right" but when men do it it is seen as "wrong" or "gay" or something like that.

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:45 am Post subject:

I was not "allowed" to sign my sons birth certificate - only my wife was and she was as irritated about that as I was (am). I am THRILLED to be a father and while a birth certificate is just a piece of paper, it DOES stand for something. We are expectly child #2 in the next month and it will be just as much of a slap in the face when I am not "allowed" to sign his or her birth certificate as well....

Big Evil · Joined: 21 Feb 2006 Posts: 22

That's half of the reason people piss me off when they say we're a democracy, there's so many gaps and holes in our "democratic state" that it's impossible to actually think it. Obviously the democrats and especialy liberal-democrats don't study history, we're a republic.. Our freedom is way more limited then we're convinced to believe..

And then they have the nerve to rant about "my rights are being violated!" what rights? You have no rights, wakeup and smell the coffee..

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 9530

AmericaFirst wrote: I was not "allowed" to sign my sons birth certificate - only my wife was and she was as irritated about that as I was (am). I am THRILLED to be a father and while a birth certificate is just a piece of paper, it DOES stand for something. We are expectly child #2 in the next month and it will be just as much of a slap in the face when I am not "allowed" to sign his or her birth certificate as well....

Why were you not allowed to sign the birth certificate? When my nephew was born both my sister and brother-in-law signed it. I'm assuming it is a state law, but did they give you a reason?

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Obviously, with couples figure skating, and figure skating in general, men and women do compete against each other. With couples, its great because its obviously a man and a woman, so there is no inequality there.. I dont see the connection..

But with such things as cross country skiing and snowboarding the half pipe??? I mean, come on...

About the weightlifting, women are just as capable of being the strongest human as men are.. I really dont see the point in separating the two genders in the Olympics.

Discussing male and female athletic roles, here, what about that little 100 pound chick that's a race car driver? Remember all those fellas acting all pissy just cause shes smaller, and lighter??? How much faster can a car go, just because its 30 pounds lighter than the thinnest male racer? Not much!!!

I really wish that contact sports WERE more integrated, also... I have no problems with being tackled by men!! In fact, I like being tackled by men!! ITs not really dangerous, either- when you think about it- why would it be more dangerous to a woman than to a man? If were all serious athletes, and we all wear protective gear- its totally fair.

The idea is getting men more comfortable with the fact that women ARE just as athletic, just as tough, just as strong, and just as aggressive as they are. Its sweet that they dont like the idea of tackling a woman, for fear of hurting her, but wake up and smell the 21st century, guys! We dont need you to protect us anymore.. we might like it, on the rare occasions that it happens, but we really dont depend on it. I mean, what are you going to do, when a man loses his good sportsmanship on the field and steps up to some woman, and swings? Well, lets think about this. If he was really that upset, its only probably because shes just as tough as he is, and hes intimidated.. So let him take his swing. Surely, being the tough athlete that SHE is, she will take care of him, and set him straight.

I guess my point is- there is an element of respect involved with accepting that women are fully capable of doing all the same sports and athletic stuff that men do. If you still want to throw your coat down on a puddle for us, though- we wont complain.. Just dont be too wierded out if we send YOU flowers occassionally, too! After all, they say alls fair in love and war...

:-)

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: AmericaFirst wrote: I was not "allowed" to sign my sons birth certificate - only my wife was and she was as irritated about that as I was (am). I am THRILLED to be a father and while a birth certificate is just a piece of paper, it DOES stand for something. We are expectly child #2 in the next month and it will be just as much of a slap in the face when I am not "allowed" to sign his or her birth certificate as well....

Why were you not allowed to sign the birth certificate? When my nephew was born both my sister and brother-in-law signed it. I'm assuming it is a state law, but did they give you a reason?

Here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, only the mother signs the birth certificate these days (at least in the town my son was born)- 40 years ago when I was born (in MA), BOTH parents signed it. I am SURE it's got something to do with the state not wanting to "offend" a woman who does not have the "father" of the child in her life. In other words, I am SURE it has something to do with 21st century "political correctness" (i.e., it's ok to insult us guys who DO want to be fathers...).

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

AmericaFirst wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: AmericaFirst wrote: I was not "allowed" to sign my sons birth certificate - only my wife was and she was as irritated about that as I was (am). I am THRILLED to be a father and while a birth certificate is just a piece of paper, it DOES stand for something. We are expectly child #2 in the next month and it will be just as much of a slap in the face when I am not "allowed" to sign his or her birth certificate as well....

Why were you not allowed to sign the birth certificate? When my nephew was born both my sister and brother-in-law signed it. I'm assuming it is a state law, but did they give you a reason?

Here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, only the mother signs the birth certificate these days (at least in the town my son was born)- 40 years ago when I was born (in MA), BOTH parents signed it. I am SURE it's got something to do with the state not wanting to "offend" a woman who does not have the "father" of the child in her life. In other words, I am SURE it has something to do with 21st century "political correctness" (i.e., it's ok to insult us guys who DO want to be fathers...).

What is the proof that you are even the father of the child then?

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:37 pm Post subject:

Sailor Moon - my wife has bought me flowers before. I loved it. Don't particularly care about the flowers but just the gesture. As I always say, I have the BEST wife in the UNIVERSE....

And yes, I still hold open doors and the like....it's just nowadays people aren't as likely to say "thank you" when you do it :lm:

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject:

Helena` wrote: AmericaFirst wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: AmericaFirst wrote: I was not "allowed" to sign my sons birth certificate - only my wife was and she was as irritated about that as I was (am). I am THRILLED to be a father and while a birth certificate is just a piece of paper, it DOES stand for something. We are expectly child #2 in the next month and it will be just as much of a slap in the face when I am not "allowed" to sign his or her birth certificate as well....

Why were you not allowed to sign the birth certificate? When my nephew was born both my sister and brother-in-law signed it. I'm assuming it is a state law, but did they give you a reason?

Here in the People's Republic of Massachusetts, only the mother signs the birth certificate these days (at least in the town my son was born)- 40 years ago when I was born (in MA), BOTH parents signed it. I am SURE it's got something to do with the state not wanting to "offend" a woman who does not have the "father" of the child in her life. In other words, I am SURE it has something to do with 21st century "political correctness" (i.e., it's ok to insult us guys who DO want to be fathers...).

What is the proof that you are even the father of the child then?

Besides the fact that he is the spitting image of me (poor little guy) and has my last name (as does my wife), not much. Does paying all the bills count?

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

I dont think its far how men are treated like second class citizens, especially concerning their children, and in the entire realm of parenting. I found this really great article on the Fathers feelings, and it makes me feel sorry for fathers in general... Theyre often stygmatized by the more negative images of guys like my own kids dad- deadbeats, emotionally underconfident, unbalanced, unloving, absent, needing the mothers direction to be any good at parenting.. not having intuition..

Well, just because some dads are like this, doesnt speak for the majority. And there are just as many mothers out there who are just as bad!!! Its really unfair to the majority of fathers to be treated like the less desirable few...

You should be allowed to sign the friggin birth certificate. Hell, youre ENTITLED to. Hes your son too! (and YOURE HIS DAD, TOO) You guys should really take this to the courts. Totally unfair.

I also think its unfair that a child conceived prior to marriage, or even during marriage should be automatically considered the husband's kid.. well, as far as child support goes, that is- I mean, if the dad is not sure, he should go and get a DNA test done. My kids uncle is paying child support for his soon to be ex wifes kid, and it isnt even his kid, but the DNA test doesnt matter, since the child was born during the marriage.. so unfair.... I mean, its not enough that this guy went off and married this chick, thinking, and trusting that the child was his, but now that SHE lied, hes still going to have to pay the price..

Grrr..

Stupid justice system... Theres nothing "just" about it...

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject:

Even something as simple as magazines fall into the "descrimination" category. When my son was born, my wife and I subscribed to every free and fee-related "parenting" magazine there was. I soon found out that by "Parents", they mean "mother". Every magazine out there is geared STRICTLY for mothers - nothing for us fathers can be found. Every article is geared to "Mom & Baby" - now, I know a lot of people are going to say "Well, the woman is the primary caregiver" and all that but that's not fair - that is AUTOMATICALLY assuming a man doesn't want to be able to read articles about how to be a better parent - I do, I just gave up looking for them in these magazines. If my wife finds something she thinks will be of benefit to me, she pulls it out and gives it to me. Other than that, I won't be subjected to having to "interpret" what each article means for me as a dad....

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

AmericaFirst wrote: Even something as simple as magazines fall into the "descrimination" category. When my son was born, my wife and I subscribed to every free and fee-related "parenting" magazine there was. I soon found out that by "Parents", they mean "mother". Every magazine out there is geared STRICTLY for mothers - nothing for us fathers can be found. Every article is geared to "Mom & Baby" - now, I know a lot of people are going to say "Well, the woman is the primary caregiver" and all that but that's not fair - that is AUTOMATICALLY assuming a man doesn't want to be able to read articles about how to be a better parent - I do, I just gave up looking for them in these magazines. If my wife finds something she thinks will be of benefit to me, she pulls it out and gives it to me. Other than that, I won't be subjected to having to "interpret" what each article means for me as a dad....

Yeah I noticed that also. Baby products are much the same as the media... "If dad follows moms example, then he wont have any problems with... (bathing, feeding, lotion, etc)"

I have found very few articles for dads, as well..

May I suggest some mens rights websites to you? Some of them are really extremist, but heres what I have found so far-

http://www.mensrights.com/

http://www.askmen.com

http://www.mensactivism.org/

http://www.fathers-rights.com/

http://fathersrights.meetup.com/

This one here might be a good magazine- forgive me I did a quick websearch to see if I could help a little-

http://www.fathermag.com/

http://www.fatheringu.com/In%20the%20News.htm

OK I hope those help.. Just did a quick websearch, with all but askmen.com, I actually love askmen.com hahaha- I have to be the acting dad, so I have to figure men out to help my boy become a man.... very frustrating, but oh well...

Enjoy!

:wink:

AmericaFirst · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject:

Thanks Sailor Moon. My wife doesn't treat me like a second-class citizen though and I share as much of the parenting responsibilities as I can. However, between commuting and working I am gone 11-12 hours a day (my wife stays at home with our son). I frequently put my son to bed at night and basically get up with him every weekend/day I have off so my wife can get extra sleep (I get up at 5:00 during the work week and about 6:30 on weekends/holidays). I am not any sort of "militant male", I just want people to know it's not fair that they "assume" dads don't want to read articles and be involved and thus gear everything to that end.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

AmericaFirst wrote: Thanks Sailor Moon. My wife doesn't treat me like a second-class citizen though and I share as much of the parenting responsibilities as I can. However, between commuting and working I am gone 11-12 hours a day (my wife stays at home with our son). I frequently put my son to bed at night and basically get up with him every weekend/day I have off so my wife can get extra sleep (I get up at 5:00 during the work week and about 6:30 on weekends/holidays). I am not any sort of "militant male", I just want people to know it's not fair that they "assume" dads don't want to read articles and be involved and thus gear everything to that end.

I never doubted your wife treating you like anything but an equal.. not for a second..Im sure you have a wonderful relationship!

:-D

cassandrabandra · Joined: 03 Dec 2005 Posts: 853

Sailor Moon wrote: .... I found this really great article on the Fathers feelings, and it makes me feel sorry for fathers in general... Theyre often stygmatized by the more negative images of guys like my own kids dad- deadbeats, emotionally underconfident, unbalanced, unloving, absent, needing the mothers direction to be any good at parenting.. not having intuition..

Well, just because some dads are like this, doesnt speak for the majority. And there are just as many mothers out there who are just as bad!!! Its really unfair to the majority of fathers to be treated like the less desirable few...

Even if some Dads are like this, what is so bad about being emotionally underconfident or needing the mother's direction to be any good a parenting? In my experience if you are 'locked out' you don't get the chance to develop your confidence and abilities. If these (and even being a deadbeat and maybe a few other of these qualities doesn't make a Dad bad) are reasons for stygmatizing Dads, they are also good reasons for encouraging men to get involved with their kids.

I've never met a perfect parent - so I don't see why men who aren't perfect should be stygmatized.