Political Crossfire Forums

Showboat · Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: Compilation of the Koran

Accepting that the Koran was in fact dictated to the Prophet Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, how do you know the subsiquent compilation was comprehensive and accurate?

It was supposedly compiled after the Prophets death "from pieces of papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards, as well as from the hearts of men."

To me this doesn't seem the best way of ensuring accuracy from what God told the Prophet????

Any thoughts?

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: Accepting that the Koran was in fact dictated to the Prophet Muhammad by the Angel Gabriel, how do you know the subsiquent compilation was comprehensive and accurate?

It was supposedly compiled after the Prophets death "from pieces of papyrus, flat stones, palm leaves, shoulder blades and ribs of animals, pieces of leather and wooden boards, as well as from the hearts of men."

To me this doesn't seem the best way of ensuring accuracy from what God told the Prophet????

Any thoughts?

thats why Abu Baker when he became the first caliph, he order all of the Kuran to be written amd gathered in one book.. because many of the prophet's companions who had memorized the Quran died in the war of apostasy

so Abu bakr assigen the rest of the prophets companions who had memorized the Quran and those who had written it and made a copy of all they had and checked it to make sure nothing was left ungathered

the whole Quran was put in one book only after one year of the Prophet's death

unlike the current bible or the torah ...for example.. and I'm not sure of this,, but the first parts of the new testament was written 20 after Jesus was lifed off the earth.. or as christians believe " the death of jesus" ...

and the torah was written over a much longer time period than the NT

Showboat · Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:45 am Post subject:

But you beleive that the Bible and Torah were changed by Humans but there's no way you can be sure that what is currently in the Koran is EXACTLY what the angel told Mohammad.

The New testament was written after Jesus' death and subsiquent ressurection and assension in to heaven (If your a christian) or after he was lifted from the Earth (If your a Muslim), but it was written by first hand eye witnesses to the events. The ancient Jewish historian Josephus also mentions the crucifiction of Jesus, so one could say that His death, at least, is historical fact.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: But you beleive that the Bible and Torah were changed by Humans but there's no way you can be sure that what is currently in the Koran is EXACTLY what the angel told Mohammad.

The New testament was written after Jesus' death and subsiquent ressurection and assension in to heaven (If your a christian) or after he was lifted from the Earth (If your a Muslim), but it was written by first hand eye witnesses to the events. The ancient Jewish historian Josephus also mentions the crucifiction of Jesus, so one could say that His death, at least, is historical fact.

first of all, lemme say that history is written by historians, and some historians have agendas and opinions..and sometimes their opinions become facts, as far as they are interested or know...

Josephus saw a crucifiction of a man whom he thought to be Jesus...we muslims believe that god made one of Jesus' companions to look like Jesus and Romans came and took that companion thinking that he was Jesus.

so to me the historian Josephus being a witness to the crucifiction might be a fact... but that the man on the crucifix is Jesus is not

about the authenticity of the bible... for you to say that it was written by first hand after Jesus death already makes me suspicious ... I mean the prophet whom the bible was given to died before writing it?

that didnt happen in Islam... Quran was written in its final edition before the prophet died...

I understand why you would suspect the authenticity of quran since you are not a muslim... but for us muslims.. God promised that he will keep this book from any corruption or distortion... thats enough for me.. but i'll try to prove it to you

the prohpet when he died, he had more than 10000 companions among those many had a crucial part in writing the Quran and many of them memorized it... so when the whole quran is collect in one single book.. none of them denied the valifity of it and said that they were something wrong with it...

Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12

the consistency of Quran is another proof... there is no verse that disagrees or contadicts with another verse... unlike the OT or the NT

wherever you go around the world you will only find one Quran... a Quran from Indonesia is like the one I have in the US is like the one my friend has in Saudi Arabia or my friend friend has in Germany

how many versions are there of the bible? isnt it being revised to make its english "more understandable" ? a two centuries old version of the bible is different from the ones you find in your hotels

the Quran is the same, very old copies have been found and there is not one single letter added or taken .. there is no difference between those copies that were written in Andalusia from the copies that were written in Istanbul 600 years ago, from the copies that are printed now in Saudi Arabia

another proof of the quran's authenticity is that in the Quran god has challeneged those who didnt believe in the Quran or mohammed to write something like it.. and the challenege is still on...

you can not write something in Arabic and say that it is from the Quran and make those who excel in Arabic and Islam fall for it...

the language used in the quran is so unique that no man can come up with something like it ... many tried and failed miserably...you have the chance to prove that Islam is fake if you can come up with one verse, only one verse that can match the skillful and unique language found in the Quran

another proof is the many miracles that are found in the Quran and only modern science has proven to know that those verses were not written by a man.. but are indeed the words of God

check this website and see yourself

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/

peace

Orions · Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 65 Location: A big city I hate.

Glorfindel, in Your long post You didn't give a single proof that Quran is unmodified. Of course You believe that it is, as i believe that today's Bible is a word of God. That's natural. But that's not a proof - only a belief. For the sake of discussion I would say that proving the continuity of one book through several hundreds of years is totally impossible. But in the end it always comes down to believing something, right? So let's say You believe Quran is unmodified, I believe that Bible is and let's leave it at that :D

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

Orions wrote: Glorfindel, in Your long post You didn't give a single proof that Quran is unmodified. Of course You believe that it is, as i believe that today's Bible is a word of God. That's natural. But that's not a proof - only a belief. For the sake of discussion I would say that proving the continuity of one book through several hundreds of years is totally impossible. But in the end it always comes down to believing something, right? So let's say You believe Quran is unmodified, I believe that Bible is and let's leave it at that :D

I would.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16428 Location: On Earth

We don't look at original sin. We believe that man has the free will to do good and evil, and that he can choose which path he takes.

God is One, and we pray to Him and Him alone. We don't need to pray to Him by saying that one of His apostles is his "Son".

It's not that simple, dude. :wink:

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Orions wrote: Glorfindel, in Your long post You didn't give a single proof that Quran is unmodified. Of course You believe that it is, as i believe that today's Bible is a word of God. That's natural. But that's not a proof - only a belief. For the sake of discussion I would say that proving the continuity of one book through several hundreds of years is totally impossible. But in the end it always comes down to believing something, right? So let's say You believe Quran is unmodified, I believe that Bible is and let's leave it at that :D

I did give you a proof and I also gave you an ever lasting challenege...if you could write something that can be equal to the language used in Quran, you will first prove your point and second will prove that Islam is fake..because in Islam, God promises that he will keep the Quran from any corruption or distortion...if you can prove that you can corrupt the Quran and distort its verses without your scheme being discovered..that you can prove your point in your post and will also prove that Islam is as flawed and imperfect religion as christianity or judaism

I could show you copies of some who tried to distort the Quran and failed..but it is written in Arabic and you wouldnt know the difference..but any muslim who reads arabic, if he sees it he would know these copies are made up by humans and not of the Quran

you would have to learn Arabic to get the meaning of my proof...christians who are masters in arabic wuold know what i'm saying

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

eynon · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject:

Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

first of all,, I gotta say this... you saying that god became a human to show us a way to love him and then and then God claimed to be the "son of God" and then inspired romans and jews to kill him and then he sacrificed himself to earn the forgivness for all humans in the from of God sacrificing his son,, only in the end to find that God and his son are the same entity and that God was the one who endured all that torture and execution ..let aside the fact that he lived between humans and eat food and drank water ...

and you dont find this complicated? who was in charge of the rest of the universe when Jesus or God was on that crucifition or on his bed?

about the middleman... how can you say that there are no middleman when a man have to accept Jesus as his savior to get God's forgivness and grace delivered by the Holy spirit... all that and you are saying there are not middlemen? what about confessions? are not catholics supposed to confess their sins to a priest ( who is by the way a human being just like any one of us) you dont think that some sort of being a middleman?

lemme clarify this again, you can not be forgiven until you meet another human being dressed in black and ask him the following " forgive me father for I have sinned" lool

I think it is very very veryyyy clear from whom that person is asking for forgivness...

why is it not possible for a man to directly say "god forgive me , I have sinned" why does he need to tell a priest about his sins...you still think this is not a case of middleman involved here?

about what you said after these two points.... I think you did not really need to compare a heavenly religion to a man-made religion

by the way , could you do me a favor, if you have enough knowledge about the bible, could you give me a verse from the bible where Jesus talked about himself and described himself as God or the son of God? I want seomthing close to like saying " and Jesus said I'm the son of God"

could you find some verse like that in the bible?

thx

peace

eynon · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject:

Glorfindel wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

first of all,, I gotta say this... you saying that god became a human to show us a way to love him and then and then God claimed to be the "son of God" and then inspired romans and jews to kill him and then he sacrificed himself to earn the forgivness for all humans in the from of God sacrificing his son,, only in the end to find that God and his son are the same entity and that God was the one who endured all that torture and execution ..let aside the fact that he lived between humans and eat food and drank water ...

and you dont find this complicated? who was in charge of the rest of the universe when Jesus or God was on that crucifition or on his bed?

about the middleman... how can you say that there are no middleman when a man have to accept Jesus as his savior to get God's forgivness and grace delivered by the Holy spirit... all that and you are saying there are not middlemen? what about confessions? are not catholics supposed to confess their sins to a priest ( who is by the way a human being just like any one of us) you dont think that some sort of being a middleman?

lemme clarify this again, you can not be forgiven until you meet another human being dressed in black and ask him the following " forgive me father for I have sinned" lool

I think it is very very veryyyy clear from whom that person is asking for forgivness...

why is it not possible for a man to directly say "god forgive me , I have sinned" why does he need to tell a priest about his sins...you still think this is not a case of middleman involved here?

about what you said after these two points.... I think you did not really need to compare a heavenly religion to a man-made religion

by the way , could you do me a favor, if you have enough knowledge about the bible, could you give me a verse from the bible where Jesus talked about himself and described himself as God or the son of God? I want seomthing close to like saying " and Jesus said I'm the son of God"

could you find some verse like that in the bible?

thx

peace

(shrug) I don't agree with a lot of what Catholics do, quite frankly I think that from a Christian perspective many Muslims and Jews practice a faith closer to god then many Catholics. But like I said, I don't need a middle-man.

as to who ran the universe when god was flesh, well that's a question many in the early church questioned as well....ergo the trinity, and Arians, and Nestorians, and such. As for me, I believe that the rules of time, space, and even the very nature of being don't apply to god as they do to us(considering that we exist in only 3 dimensions out of a potential limitless number of dimensions).
So to answer your question about who was running the universe when god was human, easy, god was.

as to Jesus claiming he was god, I don't have my bible handy(I'm at school), but I'll dig em up later for ya :)

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

first of all,, I gotta say this... you saying that god became a human to show us a way to love him and then and then God claimed to be the "son of God" and then inspired romans and jews to kill him and then he sacrificed himself to earn the forgivness for all humans in the from of God sacrificing his son,, only in the end to find that God and his son are the same entity and that God was the one who endured all that torture and execution ..let aside the fact that he lived between humans and eat food and drank water ...

and you dont find this complicated? who was in charge of the rest of the universe when Jesus or God was on that crucifition or on his bed?

about the middleman... how can you say that there are no middleman when a man have to accept Jesus as his savior to get God's forgivness and grace delivered by the Holy spirit... all that and you are saying there are not middlemen? what about confessions? are not catholics supposed to confess their sins to a priest ( who is by the way a human being just like any one of us) you dont think that some sort of being a middleman?

lemme clarify this again, you can not be forgiven until you meet another human being dressed in black and ask him the following " forgive me father for I have sinned" lool

I think it is very very veryyyy clear from whom that person is asking for forgivness...

why is it not possible for a man to directly say "god forgive me , I have sinned" why does he need to tell a priest about his sins...you still think this is not a case of middleman involved here?

about what you said after these two points.... I think you did not really need to compare a heavenly religion to a man-made religion

by the way , could you do me a favor, if you have enough knowledge about the bible, could you give me a verse from the bible where Jesus talked about himself and described himself as God or the son of God? I want seomthing close to like saying " and Jesus said I'm the son of God"

could you find some verse like that in the bible?

thx

peace

(shrug) I don't agree with a lot of what Catholics do, quite frankly I think that from a Christian perspective many Muslims and Jews practice a faith closer to god then many Catholics. But like I said, I don't need a middle-man.

as to who ran the universe when god was flesh, well that's a question many in the early church questioned as well....ergo the trinity, and Arians, and Nestorians, and such. As for me, I believe that the rules of time, space, and even the very nature of being don't apply to god as they do to us(considering that we exist in only 3 dimensions out of a potential limitless number of dimensions).
So to answer your question about who was running the universe when god was human, easy, god was.

as to Jesus claiming he was god, I don't have my bible handy(I'm at school), but I'll dig em up later for ya :)

first of all lemme say, thank you

second..i take it from your post that you are not catholic.. so if you commit and sin and you regret it... what do you do to get God's forgivness?

about the rules of the universe and us humans living in 3 deminsions.. I see what you are saying but I gotta ask, if God made himself a human... should not the laws that he made for humans apply onto him and shouldnt he be restricted to those 3 deminsions... I mean the whole reason God sent messengers through out history instead of him coming to earth to deliver that message is for one because humans are not capable to bear the sight of God and hear his direct word and for 2 because that would defy the whole idea behind believing in him

thats why God did not send angels to humans.. he rather sent humans like us who would understand what other humans would go through, who knew the history and traditions of those to whom they were sent. and gave those chosen humans signs to prove that they were sent from God...

a human body can not bear to see certain lights or hear certain frequencies of voice... and by this fact... God can not be in a human body ...that body would not bear to hold such entity...

and you didnt answer my questions about Jesus being God AND the son of God in the same time...

i always thought that the trinity consists of the father and the son ( his name is Jesus) and the holy spirit..so so how are they one if you call them different names and each one of them has a different job than the others

thx again

peace

eynon · Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2006 9:20 pm Post subject:

Glorfindel wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

first of all,, I gotta say this... you saying that god became a human to show us a way to love him and then and then God claimed to be the "son of God" and then inspired romans and jews to kill him and then he sacrificed himself to earn the forgivness for all humans in the from of God sacrificing his son,, only in the end to find that God and his son are the same entity and that God was the one who endured all that torture and execution ..let aside the fact that he lived between humans and eat food and drank water ...

and you dont find this complicated? who was in charge of the rest of the universe when Jesus or God was on that crucifition or on his bed?

about the middleman... how can you say that there are no middleman when a man have to accept Jesus as his savior to get God's forgivness and grace delivered by the Holy spirit... all that and you are saying there are not middlemen? what about confessions? are not catholics supposed to confess their sins to a priest ( who is by the way a human being just like any one of us) you dont think that some sort of being a middleman?

lemme clarify this again, you can not be forgiven until you meet another human being dressed in black and ask him the following " forgive me father for I have sinned" lool

I think it is very very veryyyy clear from whom that person is asking for forgivness...

why is it not possible for a man to directly say "god forgive me , I have sinned" why does he need to tell a priest about his sins...you still think this is not a case of middleman involved here?

about what you said after these two points.... I think you did not really need to compare a heavenly religion to a man-made religion

by the way , could you do me a favor, if you have enough knowledge about the bible, could you give me a verse from the bible where Jesus talked about himself and described himself as God or the son of God? I want seomthing close to like saying " and Jesus said I'm the son of God"

could you find some verse like that in the bible?

thx

peace

(shrug) I don't agree with a lot of what Catholics do, quite frankly I think that from a Christian perspective many Muslims and Jews practice a faith closer to god then many Catholics. But like I said, I don't need a middle-man.

as to who ran the universe when god was flesh, well that's a question many in the early church questioned as well....ergo the trinity, and Arians, and Nestorians, and such. As for me, I believe that the rules of time, space, and even the very nature of being don't apply to god as they do to us(considering that we exist in only 3 dimensions out of a potential limitless number of dimensions).
So to answer your question about who was running the universe when god was human, easy, god was.

as to Jesus claiming he was god, I don't have my bible handy(I'm at school), but I'll dig em up later for ya :)

first of all lemme say, thank you

second..i take it from your post that you are not catholic.. so if you commit and sin and you regret it... what do you do to get God's forgivness?

about the rules of the universe and us humans living in 3 deminsions.. I see what you are saying but I gotta ask, if God made himself a human... should not the laws that he made for humans apply onto him and shouldnt he be restricted to those 3 deminsions... I mean the whole reason God sent messengers through out history instead of him coming to earth to deliver that message is for one because humans are not capable to bear the sight of God and hear his direct word and for 2 because that would defy the whole idea behind believing in him

thats why God did not send angels to humans.. he rather sent humans like us who would understand what other humans would go through, who knew the history and traditions of those to whom they were sent. and gave those chosen humans signs to prove that they were sent from God...

a human body can not bear to see certain lights or hear certain frequencies of voice... and by this fact... God can not be in a human body ...that body would not bear to hold such entity...

and you didnt answer my questions about Jesus being God AND the son of God in the same time...

i always thought that the trinity consists of the father and the son ( his name is Jesus) and the holy spirit..so so how are they one if you call them different names and each one of them has a different job than the others

thx again

peace

ok me first, when I screw up, which is often, I simply get on my knees and ask for god's forgiveness AND ask for his wisdom in helping me avoid the same mistake again AND that he may help me live by his guidence. He also helps me stop mistakes before I even make em :wink:

ok, tha nature of Christ........hmmm........this is a deep topic that has consumed the lives of far smarter and far more godly men then I. The council of Nicea in 321 was dedicated entirley to this subject. here's an article on that http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/nicea.htm

"because humans are not capable to bear the sight of God and hear his direct word and for 2 because that would defy the whole idea behind believing in him

thats why God did not send angels to humans.. he rather sent humans like us who would understand what other humans would go through, who knew the history and traditions of those to whom they were sent. and gave those chosen humans signs to prove that they were sent from God..."

Yep, which is why Christians believe that god became flesh, in order to allow humans to interact with him directly. Infact many Christians believe that even after we die Jesus will be the way we interact with god. For to be in God's total presents and presense that is SO TOTALLY beyond us, would destroy you're very being.

Also remember that the NT is full of Jesus's signs and miracals, to prove that he is infact god. That's a key reason we believe Jesus to be god, in all the gosples he heals, performs miricals, make prophecies, forgives sin, and lets people worship him. Muslims, Christians, and Jews all know that only god can do things like forgive sin, AND that we are to only worship god. The scriptures are full of examples of god's servants and prophets rebuking people when they are honored or worshiped, pointing out it is not they who have created this wonder, but god. Jesus doesn't do that, he doesn't say that god is the source of his signs and wonders, but that HE is. By doing this Jesus is claiming to be god.

here's some more on Nicea: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Saracen wrote: We don't look at original sin. We believe that man has the free will to do good and evil, and that he can choose which path he takes.

God is One, and we pray to Him and Him alone. We don't need to pray to Him by saying that one of His apostles is his "Son".

It's not that simple, dude. :wink:

Original sin has nothing to do with it. Man sins, sin can't be with God. That's all there is to it.

See why a Savior is necessary?

God is One, and Y'shua is a facet of that single God that deals with material reality.

Otherwise you wouldn't know He even existed because God is unknowable and ineffable. If what you say is true we would be nothing but animals, not knowing God. You know God only because of His Works, yet you deny
How He performed this work.

The Son and the Holy Spirit are how God communicates with us and performs His work here.

Think of the universe as a terrarium that we are in and that God puts His two hands in to re-arrange things that we screw up.

Would you say your two hands are not part of you? Or that because you have two hands you are really three people?

I wouldn't.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24241

Eynon81 wrote: Glorfindel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Jesus had 12 apostles who parted after his death and they were only 12
He also had at least seventy disciples and thousands of followers.

I have a question for Islamics.

How is sin dealt with in Islam? No one can enter Heaven if they are sinful and all men are sinful, so how does Islam deal with the existence of sin?

You see Y'shua took our burden of sin onto His shoulders as a self-sacrifice to atone our sins.

No one can come to the Father except through the Son. This is why He is called our Savior.

And that goes for all peoples, all are invited to eternal life through Y'shua HaMashiach Nagid.

Just repent from your sins and ask Moshiach to come into your life and you will receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

It's that simple.
:-D

when Jesus as you believe died, how many christians were there?

all men are sinful but in Islam , if you repetn and ask God for forgivness it would be like you have not sinned at all

and not all sins are the same.. there are sins committed against God's teaching and does not involve other creatures..like smoking... it is a sin and the one who is harmed by that sin is you... so all you have to do is repetn and stop smoking and ask God to forgive you

there are other type of sins that other creatures are involved... like killing or lying to someone... in that case.. a man has to stop lying and ask God for forgivness and also you have to ask for that someone's forgivness because you lied to him

and also not all sins are of the same level... like smoking is as big a sin as drinking Alcohol... and using foul language is not like practicing witchcraft

I think it is really not fair for somebody to be tortured and killed for the sins that I have committed

thats one of the basic laws of Islam... no one shall bear the sins of the others..you are jugded only for the sins you have committed... not for the sins your father had committed

also in Islam the way to God is direct and instant... you do not have to talk to the son to get to God and you do not to have to ask a priest for god's forgivness... it is god's forgivness and not the priest's..then why ask the priest if he doesnt own the thing?

all you have to do to ask God to forgive you is to go right a head and say " god please forgive me" ...

in fact one of the reasons the people of Mecca worshipped false Idols when the prophet was sent is because they thought that those Idols can work as middlemen or agents to deliver to God the requests of humans

as I said , all you need to do to get God's forgivness is repent and ask God to forgive you directly, no need for a middleman... isn't that much simpler?

peace

I'm a Christian, I don't need a middleman :P :wink:

When I pray I talk to god, and he inturn responds with his spirit, sounds silly to out-siders, but that should all make sense to this crowd.

What Christians mean when they say, "let Jesus into your life." is "let god into your life".....remember that for us Jesus=God. In other words our eternal, omnipresent, omnipotent, creator came down to our little wet rock floating in space and became a human being.

Not just any human being, but a hill-billy wood-worker from a nothing town, in the worst county in the worst province in the Roman Empire. He showed that he loved us by becoming one of us, by dispensing with the grandure and buring bushes as such and becoming a lowly human(lowly even by human standards :wink: ).

He then taught us the way to him, how to have a realtionship with him, simply by seeking him, and loving him, and trusting him.....ie faith.(No middle man involved btw).

To cap it all off god really showed how much he loved us, and the total nature of his compassion and mercy by letting a bunch of evil men, torture and kill him, AND THEN forgiving them for it.

Now for us in our time the idea of a loving merciful god is taken for granted. But remember that in the time of Jesus that was a strange and alien concept. Gods were not loving, but wrathful and petty. Realationships with those Gods were based around tit for tat.....you give me a goat, I'll make it rain.....you give me a cow, I'll help you win this battle, etc.......Jesus shattered this view of reality. God didn't want goats, or cows, or nice pretty status, he just wanted you.

That's what I believe anyways :)

Wow, Eynon81. You really nailed it. :tu:

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Eynon81 wrote:

ok me first, when I screw up, which is often, I simply get on my knees and ask for god's forgiveness AND ask for his wisdom in helping me avoid the same mistake again AND that he may help me live by his guidence. He also helps me stop mistakes before I even make em :wink:

ok, tha nature of Christ........hmmm........this is a deep topic that has consumed the lives of far smarter and far more godly men then I. The council of Nicea in 321 was dedicated entirley to this subject. here's an article on that http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/sbrandt/nicea.htm

"because humans are not capable to bear the sight of God and hear his direct word and for 2 because that would defy the whole idea behind believing in him

thats why God did not send angels to humans.. he rather sent humans like us who would understand what other humans would go through, who knew the history and traditions of those to whom they were sent. and gave those chosen humans signs to prove that they were sent from God..."

Yep, which is why Christians believe that god became flesh, in order to allow humans to interact with him directly. Infact many Christians believe that even after we die Jesus will be the way we interact with god. For to be in God's total presents and presense that is SO TOTALLY beyond us, would destroy you're very being.

Also remember that the NT is full of Jesus's signs and miracals, to prove that he is infact god. That's a key reason we believe Jesus to be god, in all the gosples he heals, performs miricals, make prophecies, forgives sin, and lets people worship him. Muslims, Christians, and Jews all know that only god can do things like forgive sin, AND that we are to only worship god. The scriptures are full of examples of god's servants and prophets rebuking people when they are honored or worshiped, pointing out it is not they who have created this wonder, but god. Jesus doesn't do that, he doesn't say that god is the source of his signs and wonders, but that HE is. By doing this Jesus is claiming to be god.

here's some more on Nicea: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11044a.htm

first of all, I'm glad that you go directly to God to ask for forgivness, which might be the contrary to what catholics do...

about the nature of Jesus... you say that coucils and meeting have been held to come to angreement of the nature of Jesus 300 years after his "death" ... so the decisions that were made in that council were from humans ..no mtter how smart and godly they were...

so one of the most important ideas behind christianity were collectively made up by humans..no by Jesus himself...

I mean something that sensitive and vital to a religion like the nature of Jesus, shouldnt that be cleared up before his departure?

for example, the five pillars of Islam , those were not a subject of discussion 300 years after the Prophet Mohammed died... the Prophet made it very cristal clear to all muslims what the five pillars of Islam were, he did not leave it to his followers to decide...because those five are the most important things that a muslim must embrce or do to become a muslim...

you see the difference here? something as vital and decisive as the nature of Jesus in christianity was a matter of discussion for more than 300 years and even Jesus himself did not have a say in all of that ... so you are following the teachings of a God who did not really come up with those teachings...since those teachings were agreed upon by a few people in a council...

Jesus signs and miracles did not prove that he is God ..but in fact proved that he was SENT by God ...Moses was given signs and miracles ...you dont see the jews worshipping him...

it is weird that people would see and realize that God walks around and eats and sleeps ... and yet they refuse to believe ... what is more weird is God had to sleep and drink and eat...

even the angels when they visited Abraham to tell him that they were gonna to destory and kill the people of Sodom and Gamorrah, and looked and were in human form..when Abraham presented them with food , they did not et and then told him the truth behind their visit...

think about it

peace

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: so one of the most important ideas behind christianity were collectively made up by humans..no by Jesus himself

They are based on the Gospels, which contain the words of our Savior.

Perhaps you might think these have been altered but the evidence does not indicate this, in fact it indicates the opposite.

Perhaps some people would like to look into this matter objectively and decide for themselves what the truth is.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: even the angels when they visited Abraham to tell him that they were gonna to destory and kill the people of Sodom and Gamorrah, and looked and were in human form..when Abraham presented them with food , they did not et and then told him the truth behind their visit...

They did eat.

Surely you realize that the generous hospitality tradition of three measures of fine flour in the Middle East comes from the fact that this is what Abraham offered to the TWO angels and their companion.

I'll leave it to you to figure out who their companion is.